Can you imagine love in heaven?

[MehGuy]

I touched upon this question in another thread I made, but I feel this question deserves its own thread.

While the topic of heaven is part of this thread, I am not really looking at this as a religious/secular debate.

There is some debate about the nature of heaven. For this thread, I am asking people to imagine a place with zero pain and suffering. Especially the concept of heaven before the fall.

Are you able to imagine love in such an environment? Ever since I was a kid I have tried to imagine love in such a place but I have always psychologically seen no connection. Intellectually I believed there was love, but I could never understand it and assumed God would grant us this knowledge when we go up there.

The concepts of care, and sacrifice require an environment with pain and suffering, even if only potential.

Curiously I have seen other people ponder heaven before and they seem to exhibit the same confused look. Although the subject of love was never directly addressed. There does seem to be some disconnect imagining a place with zero pain and suffering.

I didn't notice just love, but that things like drama we love in media like films, videogames and music also make no sense.

Are you able to psychologically and emotionally process such an environment? Even if you can, do you feel like so many perspectives here in this fallen would would be gibberish in heaven?

 

[Robban]

I touched upon this question in another thread I made, but I feel this question deserves its own thread.

While the topic of heaven is part of this thread, I am not really looking at this as a religious/secular debate.

There is some debate about the nature of heaven. For this thread, I am asking people to imagine a place with zero pain and suffering. Especially the concept of heaven before the fall.

Are you able to imagine love in such an environment? Ever since I was a kid I have tried to imagine love in such a place but I have always psychologically seen no connection. Intellectually I believed there was love, but I could never understand it and assumed God would grant us this knowledge when we go up there.

The concepts of care, and sacrifice require an environment with pain and suffering, even if only potential.

Curiously I have seen other people ponder heaven before and they seem to exhibit the same confused look. Although the subject of love was never directly addressed. There does seem to be some disconnect imagining a place with zero pain and suffering.

I didn't notice just love, but that things like drama we love in media like films, videogames and music also make no sense.

Are you able to psychologically and emotionally process such an environment? Even if you can, do you feel like so many perspectives here in this fallen would would be gibberish in heaven?

<
I don`t think heaven is a place.

A place with zero pain and suffering would be the grave.

 

[jacks]

I believe heaven will transcend our feelings of pain, suffering and earthly love. For lack of a better word, I believe we will be in a state of bliss. I know this is an ill-defined term, but it is one we have all experienced at least briefly. It's a state when for no apparent reason you are happy, content and connected. Things may be going poorly but you are not bothered by any worries, concerns, passions or physical pains. Your ego and self is basically put aside and you feel connected to all with infinite love and compassion. (If you've never experienced this it is something to look forward to. )

 

[Unqualified]

Thou shall show me the path of life, in thy presence is fullness of joy, at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore.
Psa 16:11

 

[MehGuy]

<
I don`t think heaven is a place.

A place with zero pain and suffering would be the grave.

I don't believe in heaven myself. The existence doesn't matter, it's just a thought experiment.

 

[Robban]

I don't believe in heaven myself. The existence doesn't matter, it's just a thought experiment.

You were asking people to imagen a place with zero pain and suffering.

To get to such a place or state of mind one would have to be free,

free from self.

 

[MehGuy]

You were asking people to imagen a place with zero pain and suffering.

To get to such a place or state of mind one would have to be free,

free from self.

Yeah.. I do not agree that you have to be dead to be free from suffering and pain. For example someday technology and transhumanism could lead to where we can cut off all sensations of pain. A person's psychology might be strange, but I see no reason why it isn't doable.

I don't know of any conscious beings who are totally free from pain, but there are some genetic disorders that alter how we perceive pain or not perceive it at all.

For example congenital insensitivity to pain is a rare genetic disorder where people are unable to feel physical pain.

Mental pain is probably more complex, but I see no reason why it's impossible for those feelings to be turned off in some manner. We evolved the ability to feel pain, so we could have evolved not too.

 

[MehGuy]

I believe heaven will transcend our feelings of pain, suffering and earthly love. For lack of a better word, I believe we will be in a state of bliss. I know this is an ill-defined term, but it is one we have all experienced at least briefly. It's a state when for no apparent reason you are happy, content and connected. Things may be going poorly but you are not bothered by any worries, concerns, passions or physical pains. Your ego and self is basically put aside and you feel connected to all with infinite love and compassion. (If you've never experienced this it is something to look forward to. )

By earthly love do you mean love intertwined with suffering?

It would be cool to experience love without the psychology of suffering and pain. The older I get the crazier I feel trying to contimplate it.

When I was a kid I shrugged this realization off... But the older and more mature I get.. the more I find this inability to be sad.

 

[Robban]

Yeah.. I do not agree that you have to be dead to be free from suffering and pain. For example someday technology and transhumanism could lead to where we can cut off all sensations of pain. A person's psychology might be strange, but I see no reason why it isn't doable.

I don't know of any conscious beings who are totally free from pain, but there are some genetic disorders that alter how we perceive pain or not perceive it at all.

For example congenital insensitivity to pain is a rare genetic disorder where people are unable to feel physical pain.

Mental pain is probably more complex, but I see no reason why it's impossible for those feelings to be turned off in some manner. We evolved the ability to feel pain, so we could have evolved not too.

I heard someone say, "Pain is real suffering is optional."

OK, But one of the ten martyrs while the Romans were raking his flesh of f his bones, he was smilimg.

His disciples were astonished and asked how he could smile,

he replied, "It was for this I came."

The other nine were treated horribly too.

When I have had toothxche I tell you, I was not smiling.

 

[jacks]

By earthly love do you mean love intertwined with suffering?

Yes (Assuming you mean mental suffering.) and also detached from the physical aspects.

 

[Unqualified]

Well the modern generation can dream at least. In millions of years it may be accomplished by your standards @MehGuy . You want to be God?

 

[Unqualified]

I can imagine what that love is. But words don’t convey it very well. Just light.

 

[linux.poet]

I would think that it would be just stepping back to let another saint move closer to the throne of Grace, and letting them see Jesus ahead of you.

Perhaps also interceding in prayer for those who are still in pain on the earth. You’re not in pain, but they are. Love doesn’t terminate with pain, it’s pleasure that dies with pain, for there is no contrast to define one without the other.

 

[MehGuy]

Yes (Assuming you mean mental suffering.) and also detached from the physical aspects.

I just want to be clear. Is earthly love the only kind of love that can be felt by many Christians?

I have heard this term 'earthly love' in Christian circles before. Never gave the term much thought.

Are there any books or other resources that delve into the topic? I have always felt alone pondering this, besides finding a few others with similar thoughts online.

 

[MehGuy]

I can imagine what that love is. But words don’t convey it very well. Just light.

You can imagine it? Emotionally?

Do you ever experience this love here on earth?

I did once have a dream that made me feel this type of love. Or at least I think it did. I was even able to emotionally recollect it for a time... until sadly it gradually drifted away and started feeling like the same old suffering/pain context love I always feel.

 

[jacks]

I just want to be clear. Is earthly love the only kind of love that can be felt by many Christians?

I have heard this term 'earthly love' in Christian circles before. Never gave the term much thought.

Are there any books or other resources that delve into the topic? I have always felt alone pondering this, besides finding a few others with similar thoughts online.

I wish I could answer your questions. I'm not sure what others may mean by "Earthly Love", I was just saying what I meant by it, in my previous post. Like you, I have also been unclear what people may mean by "love", "agape love", "brotherly love", etc. I feel different about my wife and my dog (usually ) but I "love" them both. I have fallen in "love" with strangers (to be honest pretty women) just looking at them. I love my parents, even though they are no longer living and I love almost every animal I meet. In my post I meant the type of love that is just a positive feeling towards people and a sincere desire to want the best for them. It also includes a feeling of appreciation for everything around me and a felling of connectiveness.
I know this all sounds touchy/feely, but I think these are emotions we all feel at times.

 

[Unqualified]

You can imagine it? Emotionally?

Do you ever experience this love here on earth?

I did once have a dream that made me feel this type of love. Or at least I think it did. I was even able to emotionally recollect it for a time... until sadly it gradually drifted away and started feeling like the same old suffering/pain context love I always feel.

but your not talking about God, the same love you always feel.’ I feel it sometimes when my heart opens up if I let it. I also know I’m loved because of what Jesus did. I have internalized it. I love Him when I obey and feel pretty good about that.

but I just feel like I would be all enraptured and overwhelmed by His perfect light. You can give any power to God. He has it. I feel what it would be to be the opposite of myself. Perfect no inhibitions. Me in the background. We will have bodies so an element of perfect self. Unimaginable really, but perfect balance poise and well being. Not like life here at all. Not even an erring thought just yes Jesus yes.

 

[Robban]

Yeah.. I do not agree that you have to be dead to be free from suffering and pain. For example someday technology and transhumanism could lead to where we can cut off all sensations of pain. A person's psychology might be strange, but I see no reason why it isn't doable.

I don't know of any conscious beings who are totally free from pain, but there are some genetic disorders that alter how we perceive pain or not perceive it at all.

For example congenital insensitivity to pain is a rare genetic disorder where people are unable to feel physical pain.

Mental pain is probably more complex, but I see no reason why it's impossible for those feelings to be turned off in some manner. We evolved the ability to feel pain, so we could have evolved not too.

If or when you find what you are looking for, will you have much life left to live?

 

[MehGuy]

I wish I could answer your questions. I'm not sure what others may mean by "Earthly Love", I was just saying what I meant by it, in my previous post. Like you, I have also been unclear what people may mean by "love", "agape love", "brotherly love", etc. I feel different about my wife and my dog (usually ) but I "love" them both. I have fallen in "love" with strangers (to be honest pretty women) just looking at them. I love my parents, even though they are no longer living and I love almost every animal I meet. In my post I meant the type of love that is just a positive feeling towards people and a sincere desire to want the best for them. It also includes a feeling of appreciation for everything around me and a felling of connectiveness.
I know this all sounds touchy/feely, but I think these are emotions we all feel at times.

Oh ok. I got a little too excited about the idea that there was already a term about what I am talking about. Shame.

Honestly I don't know why more people are not seriously contemplating just how much (and for some all) love psychologically has to do with pain and suffering.

At least on the internet I noticed a growing interest in this question. Admittedly it is an uncomfortable subject. I have had people really angry for even questioning these things. Which I never found fair. I just want to know how things actually are to the best of my abilities. Even some free thinking atheists scoff at me. Sorry.. but some people actually take free inquiry seriously. The internet is an ice breaker in this regard.

There have been variations of statements like.. "I only see love through pain and suffering" throughout the centuries. These statements are not as crazy as they might first appear. When one acknowledges that they are probably talking about the reality of care, empathy and sacrifice.

I have been wrestling with these question since I was around 6, although in a much cruder form than today. These questions were largely inspired by my Christian faith growing up. When I lost my faith these questions only became more intense.

 

[public hermit]

I touched upon this question in another thread I made, but I feel this question deserves its own thread.

While the topic of heaven is part of this thread, I am not really looking at this as a religious/secular debate.

There is some debate about the nature of heaven. For this thread, I am asking people to imagine a place with zero pain and suffering. Especially the concept of heaven before the fall.

Are you able to imagine love in such an environment? Ever since I was a kid I have tried to imagine love in such a place but I have always psychologically seen no connection. Intellectually I believed there was love, but I could never understand it and assumed God would grant us this knowledge when we go up there.

The concepts of care, and sacrifice require an environment with pain and suffering, even if only potential.

Curiously I have seen other people ponder heaven before and they seem to exhibit the same confused look. Although the subject of love was never directly addressed. There does seem to be some disconnect imagining a place with zero pain and suffering.

I didn't notice just love, but that things like drama we love in media like films, videogames and music also make no sense.

Are you able to psychologically and emotionally process such an environment? Even if you can, do you feel like so many perspectives here in this fallen would would be gibberish in heaven?

My answer to this question will be a continuation of my answer in the previous thread in which I stated that love desires/seeks the good. This conception of love has a long history both in Christianity and in Greek antiquity.

To love myself is to desire/seek my own good. To love others is to desire/seek their good. Sacrificial love desires/seeks the good of another at one's own expense. For example, growing up, we didn't always have a lot so when there was only so much left over from dinner, my dad would forego eating more so my sister and I could have more.

In Greek antiquity (specifically Plato- Diotima's ladder of love) and in Christianity, it was/is believed that the ultimate satisfaction of our desire for good is the divine, i.e., the Good. So what is the experience of love in heaven? It is the full satisfaction of our inherent desire for good (beatific vision). Perhaps that sounds static, or even boring. Gregory of Nyssa addresses this concern with his conception of epektasis (continual spiritual growth).

As limited beings we can never fully participate in the goodness of divinity since God is eternal/infinite. But unlike this world where our desire for good alternates between longing and satisfaction, in heaven our experience will be an ever increasing experience of simultaneous longing/satisfaction. So although we will never lack in experiencing the fulfillment of our desire for good by the beatific vision, it will be ever increasing. And, it will be a communal experience that we share with each other.

So there will be no suffering as we experience in this world due to some lack of good, but it will also not be a static experience like we experience here for those few moments when satisfaction does quell our longing. Can we imagine this experience? I think we can have some sense of the idea but we don't have any experience like that in this world. The scriptures support the idea that what God has in store is beyond conception. But we can get a taste of it in our pursuit of the good, especially the Good that is the source, guide, and goal of all other goods. This is the point of contemplation. Plato's Symposium (Diotima's ladder) makes precisely this point, contemplation of beauty/goodness. This dialogue is also the source of the idea of Platonic love.