Jesus was crucified on Thursday

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alte, I really enjoyed your posts on this thread. According to your photo and comment. you are well into your 80s and I just wanted to know if you are still with us. If so, let me know.

My 85th is in 5 days. I don't spend as much time here as I once did. I drop in every now and then. I was on staff a few decades ago. The name I used on staff was Old Shepherd some of my OS posts are still around.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

My 85th is in 5 days. I don't spend as much time here as I once did. I drop in every now and then. I was on staff a few decades ago. The name I used on staff was Old Shepherd some of my OS posts are still around.

Nice to know you are still around. I am a young 68. Although my body is getting old my mind is still young. Did you post on this topic when you were Old Shepherd?

 

[prodromos]

I believe the "three days and three nights" is either a scribal gloss or emendation because "three days and three nights" would entail Jesus would rise from the dead on the fourth day and not the third. This would create contradictions everywhere where the "third day" is mentioned. It makes more problems than it solves.

My understanding is that it is simply a figure of speech known as synecdoche, where the part implies the whole, or the whole implies the part, like 15 'head' of cattle or 'England' beat 'Wales' in the rugby. Three days and three nights is three whole "day and night" implying the parts, Friday afternoon, the whole of the Sabbath, and the beginning of Sunday. This does not contradict the many times Christ said He would rise on the third day and is in keeping with the prophecy of Psalm 16:10 that He would not see corruption. Christ was buried before sunset on Friday and rose after sunset on Saturday, a little over 24 hours, having rested in the tomb on the 7th day as foretold in the creation account in Genesis. If Christ had been dead for 72 hours then His body would have begun to decay and would have "seen corruption".

 

[ViaCrucis]

In Ad 31 the first day of Unleavened Bread was on a Thursday. A Wednesday crucifixion fits with the women preparing the spices for the burial of Jesus on Friday and then resting on the weekly Sabbath and going to the tomb on Sunday morning, [the first day of the week], but Jesus was already risen.

If He was in the tomb for seventy two hours it would mean a Saturday around sunset resurrection as the Sabbath would end. I assume Jesus died several hours before sunset on Wednesday and gave the thief on the cross next to him a tour of heaven for an hour or so before he went into hell itself for three days and three nights.

Jesus was crucified on the Preparation. That's the day before the weekly Sabbath, aka Friday.

The day Jesus rose from the dead, Sunday, the first day of the week, He traveled incognito with two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus. As they walked down the road, the disciples said that "it is the third day" since "these things happened". Well let's do math: if the third day is Sunday, then the second day is Saturday, and the first day is Friday.

Jesus was crucified on Friday before sundown.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

thMy understanding is that it is simply a figure of speech known as synecdoche, where the part implies the whole, or the whole implies the part, like 15 'head' of cattle or 'England' beat 'Wales' in the rugby. Three days and three nights is three whole "day and night" implying the parts, Friday afternoon, the whole of the Sabbath, and the beginning of Sunday. This does not contradict the many times Christ said He would rise on the third day and is in keeping with the prophecy of Psalm 16:10 that He would not see corruption. Christ was buried before sunset on Friday and rose after sunset on Saturday, a little over 24 hours, having rested in the tomb on the 7th day as foretold in the creation account in Genesis. If Christ had been dead for 72 hours then His body would have begun to decay and would have "seen corruption".

Hi Prodomos, thanks for the reply. I don't believe the synecdoche theory; I think it means three days and three nights. I just feel a scribal emendation or gloss is responsible for this. Including it in the text creates contradictions elsewhere in the Bible, particularly in passages that mention Jesus rising on the third day. In early Christianity, the spurious Gospel of Peter mentions fasting night and day between the day of the crucifixion and the Sabbath. That is found in verse 27 of the gospel. I deduce from this that there were some early Christians who believed Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights. The gospel of Peter is, of course, not canonical. But it is possible there was an early scribe who held to the Gospel of Peter, verse 27, and he added the three days and three nights because the book of Jonah mentions the three days and three nights.

The Gospel of Peter, translated by Raymond Brown

The Gospel of Peter. On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

Luke mentions only the sign of Jonah (a resurrection of sorts) without mentioning the time. Matthew is the only gospel that mentions the time element of three days and three nights, inclusively.

Luke 11:29 (NASB)

As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.​

Luke 11:30
For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.

​

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi Prodomos, thanks for the reply. I don't believe the synecdoche theory; I think it means three days and three nights. I just feel a scribal emendation or gloss is responsible for this. Including it in the text creates contradictions elsewhere in the Bible, particularly in passages that mention Jesus rising on the third day. In early Christianity, the spurious Gospel of Peter mentions fasting night and day between the day of the crucifixion and the Sabbath. That is found in verse 27 of the gospel. I deduce from this that there were some early Christians who believed Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights. The gospel of Peter is, of course, not canonical. But it is possible there was an early scribe who held to the Gospel of Peter, verse 27, and he added the three days and three nights because the book of Jonah mentions the three days and three nights.

Luke mentions only the sign of Jonah (a resurrection of sorts) without mentioning the time. Matthew is the only gospel that mentions the time element of three days and three nights, inclusively.

The Gospel of Peter, translated by Raymond Brown

The Gospel of Peter. On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

I can't help but think that the simplest answer is simply that "three days and three nights" isn't meant to refer to three 12 hour periods of day and three 12 hour periods of night; but really is just meant to refer to the Friday through Sunday which the Gospels all very much affirm what happened. We do not have to attribute this to a hypothetical later gloss, or attempt to force-fit the clear data of the Gospels; it's simply phrasing that is meant to point to the time Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon to when He was raised Sunday morning.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Some people read "after three days" and take that to mean the fourth day. But Jesus and everywhere else say "the third day" and not the fourth day. They don't directly call it the fourth day because that would conflict with all the "third day" passages, but they claim it is AFTER the three days were completed that Jesus rose from the dead. Just a nice way to say on "the fourth day". Three days after Wednesday are literally Saturday. But the Jews counted inclusively, so "after three days" is the same as "the third day" and not the day after the third day.

“After Three Days” or “On The Third Day” ?

In Mark 8:31, 9:31, and 10:34 the author used the phrase “after three days” in reference to the day Jesus died. Normally, three days after a person does something, would be the fourth day and not t…

tinyurl.com

 

[Dave Watchman]

Christ was buried before sunset on Friday and rose after sunset on Saturday, a little over 24 hours, having rested in the tomb on the 7th day as foretold in the creation account in Genesis. If Christ had been dead for 72 hours then His body would have begun to decay and would have "seen corruption".

I'm also on the Good Friday Team. But I never thought about: "If Christ had been dead for 72 hours then His body would have begun to decay and would have "seen corruption". That's a pretty good one. I might add that to my repertoire.

The way I understand it is that Christ was Crucified on Friday, April 7, 30AD. The evidence for timing of this can then force the understanding of the text. I can go back to Leviticus, get the instructions for Passover, and use calendars from that time to count the new moon and find the time when Jesus said in Luke:

"I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before: [My suffering].​

And that "suffering" began in the middle of a heptad, a "week", which ended with it's Friday, on April 7, 30AD. So the problem isn't with our counting of three days and nights, but with our understanding of that enigmatic phrase: "the heart of the earth."

The Messiah might not have been employing a common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, but He was referring to the three days and nights of Jonah. Jonah's three days and three nights timeline began as soon as he found himself caught in the belly of that great fish. That timing began, when the suffering began.

""From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. He said: “In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry. You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas,​

Jonah's depths of the graves, the very heart of the seas, = the Three days and three nights, in the heart of the earth.

Jesus was hurled into the deep as soon as He was caught on Thursday night, and sinful men could lay a hand on Him.. Jesus defined the hour Himself: "Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. That was the beginning of His three days and three nights.

The timing began when Jesus was still alive. The timing began as soon as Jesus was caught, the minute He was delivered into the hands of sinners. Just like Jonah's time began as soon as he was caught in the fish and hurled into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, .

Jesus said the Son of Man must suffer many things. Many things. He was captured, He was beaten, He was falsely accused, He was humiliated, He was spat on, He was abandoned by His friends, He was mocked and scourged, He was finally crucified and put in a tomb. The Son of Man suffered many things. Up until that, "hour", nobody could lay a hand on the Son of Man. Because His TIME had not yet come. His time was the Three days and Three nights.

It might be confusing counting this while looking at calendars. We are used to our new days beginning at midnight, or sunrise. The next new day in God's economy was at sunset. And the evening and the morning were the first day, night before light. So the timing was Thursday Night, Friday Day, Friday Night, Saturday Day, Saturday Night, first light on Sunday morning counts inclusively as a Day. It's called inclusive counting. Any part of a day counts as a day. Easy.

The three days and nights qualify as a prophetic time period which is part of a bigger prophetic time period which has a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. The 457 BC Artaxerxes decree, to 27AD, fulfilled the 7 and 62 weeks when Jesus said, early in Mark, that the "time" is fulfilled. The lesser light that rules the night, witnessed the Passover count prior to Jesus' Crucifixion on Friday 30 AD. Smack dab in the middle of the week. Passover started at sundown on Thursday April 6. Jesus was following the conjunction. The Old Time Jews were rushing to eat an erroneous Passover, the Passover of the Jews, on the wrong day that Friday Night at sundown. They miscalculated the sliver of the moon.

So the "heart of the earth" has to be referring to, not just the tomb, but from the very moment that Jesus was caught on Thursday night. As soon as Jesus was delivered into the hands of sinners, the three day and night timeline begins. Probably around the time He did His last miracle when He re-attached that guy's ear. I wonder what ever happened to that guy. Was he able to hear any better with his newly attached ear? Lol.

Take a look again at all the "third day" examples from the Gospels, especially Matthew 20:18. They all include the whole sequence of events that began with His capture on Thursday night. Even in Luke the sequence includes Him to "suffer", and then rise on the "third' day..

The countdown began at the hour that He was betrayed, and was captured, and was delivered into the hands of sinful man, and all of his suffering, and His Crucifixion and then his time in the grave.

"From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." - Matthew 16:21​

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"Jesus said unto them, the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again." - Matthew 17:22​

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"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise again." - Matthew 20:18​

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"Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." - Mark 8:31​

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"For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day." - Mark 9:31​

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"and they shall mock Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill Him, and the third day He shall rise again." - Mark 10:34​

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"Saying, the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." - Luke 9:22​

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"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished, for He shall be delivered unto the Gentiles and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on, and they shall scourge Him, and put Him to death, and the third day He shall rise again." - Luke 18:31​

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"The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of men, crucified, and the third day rise again." - Luke 24:7​

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"And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and have crucified Him. But we trusted that it had to be He which should have redeemed Israel, and besides all this, today is the third day since these things (plural) were done." - Luke 24:20​

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"And said unto them, thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." - Luke 24:46​

From that hour when Jesus was caught, until He was raised on the third day.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I'm also on the Good Friday Team. But I never thought about: "If Christ had been dead for 72 hours then His body would have begun to decay and would have "seen corruption". That's a pretty good one. I might add that to my repertoire.

The way I understand it is that Christ was Crucified on Friday, April 7, 30AD. The evidence for timing of this can then force the understanding of the text. I can go back to Leviticus, get the instructions for Passover, and use calendars from that time to count the new moon and find the time when Jesus said in Luke:

"I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before: [My suffering].​

And that "suffering" began in the middle of a heptad, a "week", which ended with it's Friday, on April 7, 30AD. So the problem isn't with our counting of three days and nights, but with our understanding of that enigmatic phrase: "the heart of the earth."

In the heart of the earth could be Hades. Hades was believed to be a subterranean region where all departed spirits went.

DISSERTATION AN Extract out of Josephus’s discourse to the Greeks, concerning Hades: wherein are contained the souls of the righteous and the unrighteous.

The Messiah might not have been employing a common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period, but He was referring to the three days and nights of Jonah. Jonah's three days and three nights timeline began as soon as he found himself caught in the belly of that great fish. That timing began, when the suffering began.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the heart of the earth could be Hades. Hades was believed to be a subterranean region where all departed spirits went.

https://www.crcnh.org/downloads/history-reference/josephus/The-Complete-Works-of-Flavius-Josephus.pdf

In the Old Testament we only get information about what could be described as the undifferentiated "place of the dead", called She'ol. When David speaks of being reunited with the child he lost, he speaks of being reunited with the child in She'ol. When Isaiah prophesies against the king of Babylon, he says that the king will be brought down into She'ol.

She'ol is the place of the dead, and is translated into Greek as Hades.

In the 2nd Temple period of Judaism, we start to see language which speaks more clearly about a differentiation in She'ol/Hades. The concept of a place for the righteous dead, and a place for the wicked dead emerges in the religious topography of Jewish literature. So, for example, in the Enochian literature (collectively known as 1 Enoch) when Enoch is given a tour of the heavens he beholds in "the third heaven" the Garden of Eden aka "Paradise"; the Enochian literature also borrows the concept of a cthonic prison when it speaks of those fallen angels who were imprisoned in "Tartarus"--this language is again repeated explicitly in 2 Peter 2:4. St. Paul borrows the language of Paradise as being in "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

Jesus, in the Gospels, speaks of a differentiated place of the dead by speaking of the place of the wicked dead as "Gehenna", the Greek transliteration of Ge-Hinnom, the Hinnom Valley outside of Jerusalem where in ancient times the cult of Molech sacrificed children. On the other hand Jesus in the Parable of the Rich Man and the Poor Man presents She'ol as a place divided between Gehenna on the one hand, and "Abraham's Bosom" on the other, with an impossibly large gulf separating the two. This "bosom of Abraham" is the same "place" as Paradise.

When we start to make all these ideas overly literal, as though there is some kind of literal metaphysical geography, that there is literally a Garden of Eden located in somewhere up above the sky, or that She'ol is literally some location underground, or even literal places in a metaphysical "realm" of some kind--we are going to start getting into weird territory.

The destination of the righteous dead is simultaneously both part of She'ol (which employs "down below" language) and also described as in the heavens (which is clearly "up above" language). And this isn't some contradiction as though ancient people were confused. It's that this language of above and below carried meaning beyond people thinking about it "literally". It is culturally loaded language, even as 2nd Temple Judaism had no issue borrowing Persian and later Greek linguistic motifs (the very word "Paradise" is from a Greek word, itself borrowed from a Persian word meaning "garden" or "enclosed park")--and 2nd Temple Jewish thinkers, and Jesus Himself, aren't saying that the Garden of Eden is literally up in the sky somewhere.

Rather the point is that the righteous dead are dead and dead people are burried in the ground, so they are "in the pit, the grave"--aka She'ol or Hades; but the experience of the righteous dead is fundamentally different than the experience of the wicked dead; the wicked dead experience Gehenna, the "place" of darkness, burning, gnashing of teeth, where maggots refuse to die--this the language of death in its most horrible sense. But the righteous dead, by contrast, are with Abraham--they are figuratively reclining on Abraham's lap (that's what "Bosom of Abraham" is capturing) they are with their father, Abraham, near God. So they are also experiencing rest and comfort, near God, in "the Garden of Eden"--aka Paradise.

So when Jesus says to the thief "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" this isn't Jesus saying He's going to "go to heaven" and bring the soul of the thief with Him up there, before then going "down below". It's Jesus saying "You will be counted among the righteous", given that the man was a violent brigand, the sort of person who would be going to the place of the wicked death for their horrible violent and murderous acts, this is a powerful statement by Jesus. This brigand will be counted among the righteous, he will be with Jesus Himself.

When Jesus descends into hell (She'ol, Hades) this is not Jesus taking a visit to Gehenna, Jesus is not "going to hell" in the way we moderns think about "hell", this is Jesus entering into the deepest place of death. Jesus doesn't merely appear to be dead as though He didn't really die--Jesus truly and really dies, He descends into death with all the full significance that it means for a human being to die. The Christian doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell is that Christ's full plunge into death means Christ meets death face-to-face, He is where the dead are, and He will overcome it, He descends into death, is fully dead, and then takes on death face-to-face and actually defeats death on its own territory. He entered into death's house, and beat it on its own turf. And so Christian iconography depicts Christ's descent into hell/She'ol/Hades as Christ going not to Gehenna, but to Abraham's Bosom--Paradise--and here takes hold of Adam and Eve and pulling them up out of their sarcophagi, restoring them to life--He restores the entire human race to life in Himself and by His own power and work. And He is surrounded by the righteous dead, because here He destroys death (for death and the devil are trampled underfoot, crushed beneath the broken gates of Hades and tied up, now in bondage, for the devil has been robbed of all his power and authority).

He is Victor over death, Redeemer of the human race.

"You will be with Me in Paradise" is not "I'm taking a quick pitstop to heaven", it's "You will be counted among the righteous, among the saints" and Jesus goes to face death in death's domain, and breaks the power of death, defeats the devil, and redeems the whole world by His own death and by His resurrection.

This is not about locations, this is not about physical or metaphysical geography or topography; it's about Jesus declaring to a damned man that he is no longer damned, but righteous. It is about Jesus taking on death and winning, and redeeming us all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Der Alte]

Nice to know you are still around. I am a young 68. Although my body is getting old my mind is still young. Did you post on this topic when you were Old Shepherd?

I may have as I said I have been on CF since at least 1990. When I first joined CF the original Owner Irwin Loh contacted me and personally asked me to be a mod. Some of my posts were a bit abrasive and he privately admonished me so I added Der Alte for posting so as not to bring trouble to CF.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I may have as I said I have been on CF since at least 1990. When I first joined CF the original Owner Irwin Loh contacted me and personally asked me to be a mod. Some of my posts were a bit abrasive and he privately admonished me so I added Der Alte for posting so as not to bring trouble to CF.

I was on CF back in the early 2010s briefly, then again in 2023. I was perusing some old debates and there was an individual named Daniel Gregg which caught my interest because I had debated him once before. This time, his old posts from 2016 on the Saturday pre-sunrise resurrection. I sent him an email showing him I had replied to his 2016 posts and invited him aboard to debate it with me. He declined. So, I left the subject alone and continued with other matters.

 

[Dave Watchman]

In the heart of the earth could be Hades. Hades was believed to be a subterranean region where all departed spirits went.

The trouble with that is the three days timing reads as not just the time Jesus was dead, but from when sinful man was able to lay hands on Him, His "hour" had come when His ordeal began. It wasn't just the time He spent in the tomb.

The Passover count for 30AD shows the first "night" of the three was Thursday night when Jesus was caught in the Garden of Gethsemane. The heart of the earth wasn't just the grave as we had assumed. The numbers force the understanding. The price action makes for the market commentary. Maybe Jesus was directing us to Jonah also for the heart of the seas. Thrown into the jeering crowd of many peoples yelling Crucify Him! The world had Him, the heart of the earth.

Thursday night, and Good Friday daytime, was the first "day."

It didn't start on Thursday day, because on Thursday daytime, Jesus' "hour" had not yet come. He had not yet been delivered into the hands of sinners. He and His disciples were still having a good time, making preparations in those Thursday daylight hours, to eat the Lord's Passover, which would commence at Thursday night sundown. It still hadn't sunk into the disciples minds what was about to take place.

"So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.” - Luke 22:8​

​

"And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.- Luke 22:14-15.​

"Before I suffer.

"Look, the "hour" has come = the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners.

The Lord's Passover came at sundown on Thursday night April 6, 30AD. It was Thursday night, after they ate Passover, when Jesus allowed Himself to be caught, and said: "Look, the "hour" has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. That began the three day and night timing.

Passover, the Lord's Passover, was based on the conjunction of the new moon in March, which would begin 14 days later at sundown on Thursday evening April 6, 30AD.

The Passover of the Jews, based on the sighting of the first sliver of the silvery moon, was a full day too late. Lol.

(In Numbers 9 it says that it's a sin to eat the Passover outside of it's appointed time, or not according to it's stated parameters.)

So since we know that Jesus did not sin, we also know that the Last Supper was the True Passover. The Lord's Passover.

And that it began on Thursday evening at sundown.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alte, I really enjoyed your posts on this thread. According to your photo and comment. you are well into your 80s and I just wanted to know if you are still with us. If so, let me know.

Additional reply to this post. All three gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on preparation/parasceue

Mat_27:62 NowG1161 theG3588 next day,G1887 thatG3748 followedG2076 G3326 the day of theG3588 preparation,παρασκευήν G3904 theG3588 chief priestsG749 andG2532 PhariseesG5330 came togetherG4863 untoG4314 Pilate,G4091\

Mar_15:42 AndG2532 nowG2235 when the evenG3798 was come,G1096 becauseG1893 it wasG2258 the preparation,G3904 παρασκευήν that is,G3603 the day before the sabbath,G4315

Luk_23:54 AndG2532 that dayG2250 wasG2258 the preparation,G3904 παρασκευήν andG2532 the sabbathG4521 drew on.G2020

Joh_19:14 AndG1161 it wasG2258 the preparationG3904 παρασκευήν of theG3588 passover,G3957 andG1161 aboutG5616 the sixthG1623 hour:G5610 andG2532 he saithG3004 unto theG3588 Jews,G2453 BeholdG2396 yourG5216 King!G935

Joh_19:31 TheG3588 JewsG2453 therefore,G3767 becauseG1893 it wasG2258 the preparation,G3904 παρασκευήν thatG2443 theG3588 bodiesG4983 should notG3361 remainG3306 uponG1909 theG3588 crossG4716 onG1722 theG3588 sabbath day,G4521 (forG1063 thatG1565 sabbathG4521 dayG2250 wasG2258 an high day,)G3173 besoughtG2065 PilateG4091 thatG2443 theirG846 legsG4628 might be broken,G2608 andG2532 that they might be taken away.G142

Joh_19:42 ThereG1563 laidG5087 they JesusG2424 thereforeG3767 because ofG1223 theG3588 Jews'G2453 preparationG3904 day; παρασκευήν forG3754 theG3588 sepulchreG3419 wasG2258 nigh at hand.G1451
6 verses found, 6 matches