By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

[fhansen]

When I look in my heart, I see Jesus living in there (Ro 8:9-10; 2 Cor 13:5). That's how I know I have His eternal life (1 Jn 5:11-12).

And as long as that experience is supported by evidence of good fruit in your life then you have good reason for confidence. Without that, we should question whether we're even His.

 

[fhansen]

No, my theology says it is true righteousness and holiness due to our union with Christ. Yes, it is internal, but it shines out to the world when we walk in lock step with Him.

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

I thought you were saying you understood that getting a new heart in which righteousness dwells was something that really happens to a person. But now you are saying it is no different than the life you got from Adam.

Yes, that's something that must happen. I've also maintained that a person can walk back away from God, can reject the gifts he's been given and return to the flesh and to injustice. If that were to happen he'd have to have a complete change of heart all over again, metanoia, repentance with a true desire for God. It's important to have that understanding and make that distinction rather than presuming upon salvation independent of what we do and how we live our lives, as long as we...believe.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And as long as that experience is supported by evidence of good fruit in your life then you have good reason for confidence. Without that, we should question whether we're even His.

Well, it is true that the fruit of the Spirit are evident. And seeing the good fruit is an aid to help young children in the faith learn that the steps they are taking as they learn to walk in the Spirit are the right steps. But after decades of practice, a person develops an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. His presence, His glory, His holiness, and His will (among other things) are directly discernable and the fruit is no longer necessary as a teaching aid. If, after decades of intimacy with the Lord, His presence were to become undiscernable, I don't see how a few fruits would help that person's despair.

 

[fhansen]

Well, it is true that the fruit of the Spirit are evident. And seeing the good fruit is an aid to help young children in the faith learn that the steps they are taking as they learn to walk in the Spirit are the right steps. But after decades of practice, a person develops an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. His presence, His glory, His holiness, and His will (among other things) are directly discernable and the fruit is no longer necessary as a teaching aid. If, after decades of intimacy with the Lord, His presence were to become undiscernable, I don't see how a few fruits would help that person's despair.

IDK. The nearer one is to God the more we love. And love, simply, produces good fruit.

 

[pastorwaris]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)
These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

Yes, Romans 3:19–20 speaks truth. Eternal truth.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, makes it abundantly clear that the law was never given as a ladder to climb our way to heaven. It was given as a mirror not to cleanse us, but to show us how dirty we are. That’s why Paul writes:

“…so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
(Romans 3:19)

In other words, the law silences every excuse. It exposes the universal condition of mankind guilty. It leaves no room for self-justification. And as you rightly said, verse 20 confirms the outcome:

“…by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight…”

So Why Do People Keep Preaching Law-Based Righteousness?​

This is the heart of your question and it's a critical one for the modern Church.

You said something vital: “They know it but are suppressing the truth.”
Yes! That’s exactly what Romans 1:18 also tells us:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness…”

Many people even religious ones have a form of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5) but deny its power by returning to the law for righteousness, instead of Christ. Why?

Because the law appeals to human pride.

• The flesh craves control. Law-based living gives a false sense of control "I did this, I earned that."
• Self-righteousness is addictive. It’s easier for the natural man to count good deeds than to surrender and say, “I am hopeless without Christ.”
• Satan loves legalism. Because it masquerades as holiness but leaves people in bondage (Gal. 5:1–4).

---

But the Truth Remains Unshaken: The Law Cannot Save​

James says, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)

So if even one sin condemns a person, who then can be saved by the law? None!

That’s why Paul exclaims in Romans 7:24:

“O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”

And then, the Gospel shout of grace:

“Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Rom. 7:25)

---

The Law Leads Us to Christ​

Galatians 3:24 puts it beautifully:

“Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

The law shows us we are bankrupt so we’ll run to the cross for mercy.

---

So What Must the Church Do?​

• Preach the law rightly — to convict, not to save.
• Preach grace boldly — that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
• Confront legalism — as Paul did in Galatia.
• Disciple believers to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

Dear Brother:​

You are absolutely correct: When people deny what the law reveals, it’s not because the law failed it’s because they are either deceived or suppressing the truth. And as pastors, teachers, and brothers in Christ, we must be bold to declare both the purpose of the law and the power of the Gospel.

Let’s never forget Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4). And in Him alone, we are justified.

Stay rooted in the Word and led by the Spirit, brother. You are speaking truth in a time of much confusion.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus,
Pastor Waris

 

[fhansen]

Yes, Romans 3:19–20 speaks truth. Eternal truth.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, makes it abundantly clear that the law was never given as a ladder to climb our way to heaven. It was given as a mirror not to cleanse us, but to show us how dirty we are. That’s why Paul writes:



In other words, the law silences every excuse. It exposes the universal condition of mankind guilty. It leaves no room for self-justification. And as you rightly said, verse 20 confirms the outcome:

So Why Do People Keep Preaching Law-Based Righteousness?​

This is the heart of your question and it's a critical one for the modern Church.

You said something vital: “They know it but are suppressing the truth.”
Yes! That’s exactly what Romans 1:18 also tells us:



Many people even religious ones have a form of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5) but deny its power by returning to the law for righteousness, instead of Christ. Why?

Because the law appeals to human pride.

• The flesh craves control. Law-based living gives a false sense of control "I did this, I earned that."
• Self-righteousness is addictive. It’s easier for the natural man to count good deeds than to surrender and say, “I am hopeless without Christ.”
• Satan loves legalism. Because it masquerades as holiness but leaves people in bondage (Gal. 5:1–4).

---

But the Truth Remains Unshaken: The Law Cannot Save​

James says, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)

So if even one sin condemns a person, who then can be saved by the law? None!

That’s why Paul exclaims in Romans 7:24:


And then, the Gospel shout of grace:

---

The Law Leads Us to Christ​

Galatians 3:24 puts it beautifully:


The law shows us we are bankrupt so we’ll run to the cross for mercy.

---

So What Must the Church Do?​

• Preach the law rightly — to convict, not to save.
• Preach grace boldly — that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
• Confront legalism — as Paul did in Galatia.
• Disciple believers to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

Dear Brother:​

You are absolutely correct: When people deny what the law reveals, it’s not because the law failed it’s because they are either deceived or suppressing the truth. And as pastors, teachers, and brothers in Christ, we must be bold to declare both the purpose of the law and the power of the Gospel.

Let’s never forget Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4). And in Him alone, we are justified.

Stay rooted in the Word and led by the Spirit, brother. You are speaking truth in a time of much confusion.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus,
Pastor Waris

Yes, the law cannot justify, and the law's purpose was to teach us of our abject failure at being righteous, at being who we were created to be. to convict us of sin, IOW. And yet, anyone who believes that the new covenant has something to do with making it ok to be unrighteous, making it ok to remain in our sins, has very little understanding of the gospel-and what it means to be under the law vs under grace.

 

[fhansen]

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

Ok, this is where youre losing me I guess. We either sin or we don't; we can't blame some alter-ego, pointing to him and saying "He did it while I did not, or something to that effect. We both agree that righteousness is freely given in some manner, but also that we continue to sin. In Catholic theology that righteousness is a part of our justification, God justifying the ungodly: by making us right. And now we're responsible for our part of the "deal", for how we "invest" the grace, the righteousness, the light given us, for how we cooperate with God's work in us, a cooperation which is attested to in how we live our lives. So Paul warns us in Rom 6:21 that sin leads to death while affirming in 6:22 that holiness leads to eternal life. And this instruction continues in chap 8:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok, this is where youre losing me I guess. We either sin or we don't; we can't blame some alter-ego, pointing to him and saying "He did it while I did not, or something to that effect. We both agree that righteousness is freely given in some manner, but also that we continue to sin. In Catholic theology that righteousness is a part of our justification, God justifying the ungodly: by making us right. And now we're responsible for our part of the "deal", for how we "invest" the grace, the righteousness, the light given us, for how we cooperate with God's work in us, a cooperation which is attested to in how we live our lives. So Paul warns us in Rom 6:21 that sin leads to death while affirming in 6:22 that holiness leads to eternal life. And this instruction continues in chap 8:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Alter ego - Wikipedia: An alter ego (Latin for "other I") means an alternate self, which is believed to be distinct from a person's normal or true original personality.​

​

When you look at Romans 8:12-14, do you see the flesh as distinct from who you are in Christ?

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (Ro 8:9)​

What about Romans 8:9? Are you not in the flesh but in the Spirit?

Seeing who we are in Christ as being different from who we are in Adam is not creating an alter-ego. It is recognizing that our life is hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3). And putting to death the deeds of the body is not creating an alter-ego. It is natural for a person who is one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17) to detest the sins of his own flesh and long for the day he will be free of it (Rom 8:18-25).

 

[fhansen]

Alter ego - Wikipedia: An alter ego (Latin for "other I") means an alternate self, which is believed to be distinct from a person's normal or true original personality.​

​

When you look at Romans 8:12-14, do you see the flesh as distinct from who you are in Christ?

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (Ro 8:9)​

What about Romans 8:9? Are you not in the flesh but in the Spirit?

Seeing who we are in Christ as being different from who we are in Adam is not creating an alter-ego. It is recognizing that our life is hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3). And putting to death the deeds of the body is not creating an alter-ego. It is natural for a person who is one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17) to detest the sins of his own flesh and long for the day he will be free of it (Rom 8:18-25).

Ok. So then you understand that a person who has the Spirit, who is a child of God, is overcoming sin; the two- righteousness and nearness to God-cannot be separated. It's not enough to say, "When I look in my heart, I see Jesus living in there", if that righteousness is not prevailing over sin. The new man is a partnership, so to speak, with God, a partnership that, itself, both defines and ensures man's justice/righteousness, and we must remain true and faithful to that partnership, picking up our cross, making effort to be holy, "putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

 

[pastorwaris]

Yes, the law cannot justify, and the law's purpose was to teach us of our abject failure at being righteous, at being who we were created to be. to convict us of sin, IOW. And yet, anyone who believes that the new covenant has something to do with making it ok to be unrighteous, making it ok to remain in our sins, has very little understanding of the gospel-and what it means to be under the law vs under grace.

Absolutely, my Brother in Christ, thank you for bringing such a powerful and theologically rich insight into this discussion. As a pastor, I’d like to respond to your comment with both a shepherd’s heart and biblical clarity.

---

You Spoke Truth: The Law Cannot Justify, But Grace Doesn’t Excuse Sin​

You’re spot on: the law was never meant to save, only to expose. Paul tells us plainly in Romans 3:20:

“…by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

The law is like a spotlight in a dark room, it doesn’t clean the mess, but it shows you just how messy things really are. It was designed to lead us to the cross, not to give us a ladder to climb our way into God’s favor. As Galatians 3:24 says:

“The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

---

But Now, Under Grace , Are We Free to Live in Sin?​

Absolutely not.
Grace doesn’t make sin safe, it makes righteousness possible. The very idea that the New Covenant is some kind of free pass to remain in rebellion shows a complete misunderstanding of both the holiness of God and the purpose of grace.
Paul anticipates this very confusion when he writes in Romans 6:1–2:

“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Grace isn’t permission to sin, it’s power over sin. That’s the difference between being under the law and being under grace:

• Under the law: We strive and fail.
• Under grace: We are transformed and empowered.

Romans 8:3–4 says:

“For what the law could not do… God did by sending His own Son… that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

---

Under Law vs. Under Grace, What’s the Real Difference?​

Being under law means being judged by a standard you can’t keep.
Being under grace means being empowered by a Spirit you didn’t earn.
Here’s what grace doesn’t mean:

• That we lower God’s standard.
• That we ignore conviction.
• That we minimize sin.

Here’s what grace does mean:

• That Jesus met the standard for us.
• That we are made new from the inside out.
• That the Holy Spirit writes the law on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10).

---

So What Does the Gospel Truly Say?​

The Gospel is not just forgiveness, it’s freedom.

“If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36)

But not freedom to sin, freedom from sin.
Titus 2:11–12:

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age…”

---

Real Grace Transforms​

You nailed it when you said, “Anyone who believes the New Covenant makes it okay to remain in sin has very little understanding of the gospel.”
That’s not legalism that’s biblical Christianity.
We preach both the mercy of the cross and the power of the resurrection. Not just pardon new life.
So let us continue to call the Church to:

• Understand grace rightly.
• Flee from cheap grace.
• Walk in the Spirit.
• And reflect Christ in both heart and life.

May the Lord bless you for standing on truth in a time of confusion. Keep contending for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
With grace and truth,
Pastor Waris

 

[fhansen]

Absolutely, my Brother in Christ, thank you for bringing such a powerful and theologically rich insight into this discussion. As a pastor, I’d like to respond to your comment with both a shepherd’s heart and biblical clarity.

---

You Spoke Truth: The Law Cannot Justify, But Grace Doesn’t Excuse Sin​

You’re spot on: the law was never meant to save, only to expose. Paul tells us plainly in Romans 3:20:

The law is like a spotlight in a dark room, it doesn’t clean the mess, but it shows you just how messy things really are. It was designed to lead us to the cross, not to give us a ladder to climb our way into God’s favor. As Galatians 3:24 says:

---

But Now, Under Grace , Are We Free to Live in Sin?​

Absolutely not.
Grace doesn’t make sin safe, it makes righteousness possible. The very idea that the New Covenant is some kind of free pass to remain in rebellion shows a complete misunderstanding of both the holiness of God and the purpose of grace.
Paul anticipates this very confusion when he writes in Romans 6:1–2:

Grace isn’t permission to sin, it’s power over sin. That’s the difference between being under the law and being under grace:

• Under the law: We strive and fail.
• Under grace: We are transformed and empowered.

Romans 8:3–4 says:

---

Under Law vs. Under Grace, What’s the Real Difference?​

Being under law means being judged by a standard you can’t keep.
Being under grace means being empowered by a Spirit you didn’t earn.
Here’s what grace doesn’t mean:

• That we lower God’s standard.
• That we ignore conviction.
• That we minimize sin.

Here’s what grace does mean:

• That Jesus met the standard for us.
• That we are made new from the inside out.
• That the Holy Spirit writes the law on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10).

---

So What Does the Gospel Truly Say?​

The Gospel is not just forgiveness, it’s freedom.

But not freedom to sin, freedom from sin.
Titus 2:11–12:

---

Real Grace Transforms​

You nailed it when you said, “Anyone who believes the New Covenant makes it okay to remain in sin has very little understanding of the gospel.”
That’s not legalism that’s biblical Christianity.
We preach both the mercy of the cross and the power of the resurrection. Not just pardon new life.
So let us continue to call the Church to:

• Understand grace rightly.
• Flee from cheap grace.
• Walk in the Spirit.
• And reflect Christ in both heart and life.

May the Lord bless you for standing on truth in a time of confusion. Keep contending for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
With grace and truth,
Pastor Waris

Thank you. That was quite good, Pastor. And you're a good writer, good with words, as well. I also appreciate an insight from Augustine on this matter:
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)

Man needs more than the law-and he needs to come to learn that lesson for himself. He needs God, to be grafted into the Vine, before he needs anything else.

 

[fhansen]

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

You see, in your statements here and below I can’t help but find contradictions. Does the person stop sinning or not? If he continues to sin then there’s no complete victory, he’s not yet perfected, perfected in love to put it best. He’s still attracted to created things over God or else he wouldn’t sin, your insistence about a believer’s detestation of sin notwithstanding. IOW, until he fully loves God above all else, with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, he has a divided heart, he hasn’t yet fully arrived, and he can still fail at choosing good, the Ultimate Good, over evil. Otherwise you're just taking back with one hand what you give with the other and we’re ending up with a strictly declared, "pretend righteousness", "simul iustus et peccator", that you maintain is a misrepresentation of your position, are we not?

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

And it’s permanent once it’s permanent, presumably not fully until the next life, and until then it increases and solidifies over time as we truly remain in Him, following and doing His will. If anyone says that this following doesn’t at all involve struggle, requiring some great diligence, I can’t help but wonder if they’ve actually embarked upon the Way. Anyway, I’ve come to appreciate the following teaching that I’m familiar with:

“The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.”

In my theology, all my righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). But having been set free from sin and having become a slave of God, I have my fruit which is holiness and in the end eternal life. My sins did earn me eternal death, but now I have God's free gift of eternal life...

Ok…so, contradictions again, no? Our righteousness is as filthy rags-even after justification, then?? But, then, holiness (=righteousness) results in eternal life? Either way, eternal life is a free gift because we’ve been freely given the “gift of righteousness” that overcomes the sin that otherwise earns us death.

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I said,

"This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven."​

And you said,

You see, in your statements here and below I can’t help but find contradictions. Does the person stop sinning or not? If he continues to sin then there’s no complete victory, he’s not yet perfected, perfected in love to put it best. He’s still attracted to created things over God or else he wouldn’t sin, your insistence about a believer’s detestation of sin notwithstanding. IOW, until he fully loves God above all else, with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, he has a divided heart, he hasn’t yet fully arrived, and he can still fail at choosing good, the Ultimate Good, over evil. Otherwise you're just taking back with one hand what you give with the other and we’re ending up with a strictly declared, "pretend righteousness", "simul iustus et peccator", that you maintain is a misrepresentation of your position, are we not?

Yes, you are correct. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then there is no way we can declare complete victory over sin in this life, and we are relegated to trying to make the flesh everything God wants it to be.

I said,

"Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time."​

And you said,

And it’s permanent once it’s permanent, presumably not fully until the next life, and until then it increases and solidifies over time as we truly remain in Him, following and doing His will. If anyone says that this following doesn’t at all involve struggle, requiring some great diligence, I can’t help but wonder if they’ve actually embarked upon the Way. Anyway, I’ve come to appreciate the following teaching that I’m familiar with:

“The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.”

You are correct again. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then we must consider our righteousness to be the degree to which we have tamed the depravity of the flesh.

I said,

In my theology, all my righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). But having been set free from sin and having become a slave of God, I have my fruit which is holiness and in the end eternal life. My sins did earn me eternal death, but now I have God's free gift of eternal life...​

​

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 6:22–23)​

And you said,

Ok…so, contradictions again, no? Our righteousness is as filthy rags-even after justification, then?? But, then, holiness (=righteousness) results in eternal life? Either way, eternal life is a free gift because we’ve been freely given the “gift of righteousness” that overcomes the sin that otherwise earns us death.

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

You are right again, and for the same reason. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then there is no way to count our sins and sinfulness against ourselves after salvation. Otherwise, we would just be condemning ourselves.

One curious thing about your responses is that you admit on one hand that we are sinners after being saved but then on the other hand you say that we have the gift of righteousness that overcomes sin. You have aparently created a path that allows for "the gift of righteousness that overcomes sin" to coexist with being a sinner.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Real Grace Transforms​

You nailed it when you said, “Anyone who believes the New Covenant makes it okay to remain in sin has very little understanding of the gospel.”
That’s not legalism that’s biblical Christianity.

It seems you and fhansen: are on the same page on this comment. Can you please explain what it means to "make it ok to remain in sin"? It seems to me to be a paper tiger because all true Christians on one hand detest sin and do not promote it but on the other hand no person, including true Christians, lives a life free of sins. So, saying "it is not ok to remain in sins" sounds like it ignores reality.

 

[fhansen]

I said,

"This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven."​

And you said,

Yes, you are correct. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then there is no way we can declare complete victory over sin in this life, and we are relegated to trying to make the flesh everything God wants it to be.

I said,

"Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time."​

And you said,

You are correct again. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then we must consider our righteousness to be the degree to which we have tamed the depravity of the flesh.

I said,

In my theology, all my righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). But having been set free from sin and having become a slave of God, I have my fruit which is holiness and in the end eternal life. My sins did earn me eternal death, but now I have God's free gift of eternal life...​

​

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 6:22–23)​

And you said,

You are right again, and for the same reason. If we are not allowed to distinguish between the righeousness we have in Christ (in the new man) and the depravity we have in Adam (in the old man), then there is no way to count our sins and sinfulness against ourselves after salvation. Otherwise, we would just be condemning ourselves.

One curious thing about your responses is that you admit on one hand that we are sinners after being saved but then on the other hand you say that we have the gift of righteousness that overcomes sin. You have aparently created a path that allows for "the gift of righteousness that overcomes sin" to coexist with being a sinner.

We have the power now to overcome sin. In fact, we've always had that power because God does not command anything which cannot be done. There's only one caveat that can affect that: Man must exist in a state of communion with God. Otherwise he's de facto in a state of injustice, disorder in which case he'll never be capable of moral integrity or fulfilling his purpose in general. But even after entering the life of grace, now part of God's family, that communion is not perfect in this life. Only in the next life, when we meet face to face and fully know just as we are fully known will that communion be fully consummated and our obedience and subjugation complete, as our love for God is complete. And if we think we have this now, we need to take a good honest and close look inside.

The problem is with the doctrine of Sola Fide to begin with, as it introduces a "disconnect" or at least a fuzziness in understanding whether or not justification can and should be separated from... justice, from true personal righteousness. "Taming the depravity of the flesh", for example, is exactly what Rom 8:12-13 says we can and must do, by the Spirit. All of Romans, all of the New testament, all of the Bible, proclaims that fact, properly read and understood. Here's an example, that hasn't changed one bit under the new covenant:

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

Grace is the means to overcoming the sin that separates us from God, not a reprieve from the necessity of overcoming it. And so now, united with Him, we must be on that road, that Way, that path to perfection, with evidence at least showing it. Again, read Matthew 25, on the parable of the talents. Under grace, God's not demanding perfect sinlessness, but that does not mean he's not demanding a righteous life, a change. And if you believe in the concept of sanctification, then you already believe that such is possible.

I think if you analyze your position fully and truthfully, you won't be able to escape the fact that it supports the concept that man is made just and saved in complete disregard of his actions not only past but present and future, as long as he believes.

 

[pastorwaris]

It seems you and fhansen: are on the same page on this comment. Can you please explain what it means to "make it ok to remain in sin"? It seems to me to be a paper tiger because all true Christians on one hand detest sin and do not promote it but on the other hand no person, including true Christians, lives a life free of sins. So, saying "it is not ok to remain in sins" sounds like it ignores reality.

Absolutely, brother, what a meaningful and weighty question you've asked. As a pastor, let me take some time to respond to this both honestly and biblically, with the kind of grace and clarity we all need in these discussions.

First, You're Right, No Christian Lives Completely Free of Sin​

Let’s lay this foundational truth out clearly: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Even after regeneration, Christians still battle the flesh.

John, writing to believers, said:

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
(1 John 1:8)

So yes, brother, real Christians do still stumble. The flesh, though crucified, still kicks. But the key difference is this:

True Christians don’t make peace with sin , they make war against it.

So What Does It Mean to “Make It OK to Remain in Sin”?​

When we say someone is “making it okay to remain in sin,” we’re not talking about struggling saints. We’re talking about settled hearts. There’s a big difference between:

• A repentant believer who fights against sin, confesses it, and seeks holiness,
  vs.
• Someone who justifies or permits ongoing sin as acceptable under grace.

Let’s make that distinction sharp and clear.
Paul addressed this head-on in Romans 6:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”
(Romans 6:1–2)

The issue isn’t whether believers sin it’s whether we’ve made peace with our sin or are still at war with it through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Paper Tiger You Mentioned "Is It Real?"​

You’re asking, “Is this just a made-up problem?” I wish it were! But sadly, this is very real in the modern Church.

We’ve all seen it:

• Some misuse grace as a license, not a lifeline.
• Some say, “God understands”, and use that to never repent.
• Some churches never preach repentance, only affirmation.

So when we warn about “making it okay to remain in sin,” we’re not creating a paper tiger we’re blowing the trumpet against a very present danger that undermines the holiness of the gospel.

To be honest, Yes, Christians Still Sin, But We Don’t Live Comfortably In It​

Here’s the biblical pattern of a true believer:

1. Conviction The Holy Spirit pierces the heart (John 16:8).
2. Confession The believer agrees with God (1 John 1:9).
3. Repentance A turning away and re-alignment toward righteousness (Acts 3:19).
4. Sanctification Ongoing transformation by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:18).

We fail, but we fight. That’s the life of a true believer.

So, To Sum It Up:​

• No, we’re not saying Christians become sinless.
• Yes, we’re saying Christians can’t embrace or justify sin as compatible with a life under grace.
• And yes many today have drifted into a “grace without holiness” theology that needs loving but firm correction.

Let me leave you with this from Titus 2:11–12:

“For the grace of God has appeared… teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age…”

Grace doesn’t just forgive it teaches and trains us in holiness.

For the Encouragement:​

You’re asking the right questions and I sense the Spirit of humility in your tone. Keep asking. Keep seeking truth. The Church needs people like you who refuse to settle for shallow answers.

May we all be people who love grace deeply and pursue holiness honestly, knowing that Jesus saves us not just from the penalty of sin, but from its power.

With respect and in Christ’s love,
Pastor Waris

 

[pastorwaris]

Thank you. That was quite good, Pastor. And you're a good writer, good with words, as well. I also appreciate an insight from Augustine on this matter:
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (De Spiritu et Littera)

Man needs more than the law-and he needs to come to learn that lesson for himself. He needs God, to be grafted into the Vine, before he needs anything else.

Dear beloved brother (or sister) in Christ,

Thank you sincerely for your kind words they truly touched my heart. I count it a great honor to serve the Body of Christ in any small way the Lord enables me, and your encouragement means more than you know.

Your insight, along with the beautiful quote from Augustine, is spot on and deeply profound: "The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." That truth echoes the very heartbeat of the Gospel. The law reveals our need, but only grace through Christ empowers us to live in true righteousness. As Paul wrote, “What the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son…” (Romans 8:3).

You’ve also expressed something vital: before we can even begin to live rightly, we must be grafted into the Vine (John 15:5). Without Him, we can do nothing. It is only through abiding in Christ that true transformation begins.

May the Lord continue to grant you deep revelation, and may your walk with Him be filled with grace, truth, and fruitfulness. I truly appreciate your fellowship and thoughtful reflections please keep sharing!

In His love and service,
Pastor Waris

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You’re asking the right questions and I sense the Spirit of humility in your tone. Keep asking. Keep seeking truth. The Church needs people like you who refuse to settle for shallow answers.

What AI are you using? Nobody talks like this.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

We have the power now to overcome sin. In fact, we've always had that power because God does not command anything which cannot be done.

What about these two commands?

1. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect (Mt 5:48), and
2. But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pe 1:15–16).

Certainly you would agree that we have no chance of fulfilling these these two commands, right? Would admission of this fact constitute, "making it ok to remain in sin"? Or is trying to be perfect and holy good enough?

There's only one caveat that can affect that: Man must exist in a state of communion with God. Otherwise he's de facto in a state of injustice, disorder in which case he'll never be capable of moral integrity or fulfilling his purpose in general. But even after entering the life of grace, now part of God's family, that communion is not perfect in this life. Only in the next life, when we meet face to face and fully know just as we are fully known will that communion be fully consummated and our obedience and subjugation complete, as our love for God is complete. And if we think we have this now, we need to take a good honest and close look inside.

Honesty dictates we confront our sins and sinfulness and not try to sweep it under the rug and pretend our sin is not bad enough to keep us out of heaven.

The problem is with the doctrine of Sola Fide to begin with, as it introduces a "disconnect" or at least a fuzziness in understanding whether or not justification can and should be separated from... justice, from true personal righteousness. "Taming the depravity of the flesh", for example, is exactly what Rom 8:12-13 says we can and must do, by the Spirit. All of Romans, all of the New testament, all of the Bible, proclaims that fact, properly read and understood. Here's an example, that hasn't changed one bit under the new covenant:

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

Grace is the means to overcoming the sin that separates us from God, not a reprieve from the necessity of overcoming it. And so now, united with Him, we must be on that road, that Way, that path to perfection, with evidence at least showing it. Again, read Matthew 25, on the parable of the talents. Under grace, God's not demanding perfect sinlessness, but that does not mean he's not demanding a righteous life, a change. And if you believe in the concept of sanctification, then you already believe that such is possible.

Sanctification: "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23). It's a spiritual thing. If we live out what He put inside, then it becomes an outward thing also.

I think if you analyze your position fully and truthfully, you won't be able to escape the fact that it supports the concept that man is made just and saved in complete disregard of his actions not only past but present and future, as long as he believes.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Is 53:6)

I do not say our iniquity is disregarded. I point to the Scriptures which say that the Lord laid on Christ all our inquity (Is 53:6), that He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), that we have redemption and forgiveness of sins through His blood (Eph 1:7; Col:1:14). Certainly sin is not disregarded. God knew the price that had to be paid for our sins and He was willing to pay the price. Just read John 3:16. And Jesus' three prayers to be released from the mission if there were another path forward within the will of God proved that He understood the price He was asked to pay. But God did not let Him out of the mission, and He completed it, because there was not another way for our sins to be removed from us outside His sacrifice of Himself for our sins.

Is faith/belief/trust in Christ required? Absolutely! But faith/belief/trust never saved anyone. The good news is that God has decided that He will save from His wrath anyone who trusts that Jesus' sacrifice for our sins is sufficient. This is spelled out in plain English...

...it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe... (1 Co 1:21)​

Our faith doesn't save us from God's wrath. God saves us from His own wrath. And it pleases Him to save those who believe.

 

[pastorwaris]

What AI are you using? Nobody talks like this.

Dear Brother,
May I kindly ask what led you to believe this was written by artificial intelligence? By God’s grace, I have been serving as a teacher since 2010, specializing in grammar and language instruction across various cities. Since being introduced to this forum by a dear friend, I’ve found great joy in discussing questions about the Bible. It has not only been enriching for others, I pray, but a tremendous learning experience for me as well.

More Blessings for you and your family,