Who is really responsible for Salvation?

[A New Dawn]

Calvinism states that God, before creation, predetermined "who" would be saved. One saved, One damned. Who made that "choice" according to Calvinism? God, man? You can pretty it up with bible verses, but the reality is grim.

No, again that is not the Calvinist position. That might be the position of hyperCalvinists, who do not represent Calvinism. Man chose to rebel, that is why he was expelled from the Garden, bringing sin and death into the world.

Please stop speaking for Calvinism and Calvinists since you have no idea what we believe.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, Calvinism doesn’t state anything of the kind. This is just a purposeful lie on your part. Calvinism states that God created man in His own image and called it very good. You are really stooping low to suggest that anyone who believes in Christ and knows the loving attributes of God would even suggest that that is the attitude He would have about any of his creation.

The reality that YOU purposely ignore is that man rebelled against a holy, loving God, after God laid out the provisions of the covenant, and God was forced to expel him from the garden. God was grieved. YOU twisting the reality to suit your own desires only makes you look petty, and shows that you don’t have any intention to participate in a serious conversation.

The rest of your post isn’t worth addressing in light of the purposeful lies in your opening remarks.

That "IS" the end conclusion of Calvinism. Let's look at the Westminster Divines:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

The Calvinistic God has nothing to do with "Love". He, He, He ordains, infact foreordained, even planned to withhold salvation from some. Never wanting to save them, never even giving them a chance. All that I have said is true of Calvinism.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, again that is not the Calvinist position. That might be the position of hyperCalvinists, who do not represent Calvinism. Man chose to rebel, that is why he was expelled from the Garden, bringing sin and death into the world.

Please stop speaking for Calvinism and Calvinists since you have no idea what we believe.

Well, what does the term "Predestination" mean to you?

 

[A New Dawn]

That "IS" the end conclusion of Calvinism. Let's look at the Westminster Divines:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)

The Calvinistic God has nothing to do with "Love". He, He, He ordains, infact foreordained, even planned to withhold salvation from some. Never wanting to save them, never even giving them a chance. All that I have said is true of Calvinism.

That does not say that He chose them for death, nor does it say that God takes joy in their punishment. The reality is that man chose for himself, via Adam, which path he would take.

Man chose sin, and God, in his mercy, chose to save some. Who are you to decide that a just and merciful God does not have that Right?

Besides, Calvinism is not Reformed theology, which is what the Westminster confession speaks to. Calvinism is a soteriologic belief system that is part of numerous religious traditions.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Besides, Calvinism is not Reformed theology, which is what the Westminster confession speaks to. Calvinism is a soteriologic belief system that is part of numerous religious traditions.

I don't know how all these various traditions fit together. But Calvin, hence Calvinism, is the one who penned that people are "predestined", meaning before creation, chosen, for either life or death.

The reality is that man chose for himself, via Adam, which path he would take.

Man chose sin, and God, in his mercy, chose to save some. Who are you to decide that a just and merciful God does not have that Right?

Did we really "choose", we were born into this world with no "choice", the sinner or the damned, were they given a choice?

The "real God", does give a choice in this life. But Predestination takes away that choice, stating that a portion of mankind was always chosen to die, predestined to everlasting fire. Maybe you don't believe that, but that is the argument that I am fighting.

But also I don't believe God just "chooses" to save some, He gives His good will to all, and all can receive His grace, but our "daily choosing", determines if we will be saved.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't know how all these various traditions fit together. But Calvin, hence Calvinism, is the one who penned that people are "predestined", meaning before creation, chosen, for either life or death.


Did we really "choose", we were born into this world with no "choice", the sinner or the damned, were they given a choice?

The "real God", does give a choice in this life. But Predestination takes away that choice, stating that a portion of mankind was always chosen to die, predestined to everlasting fire. Maybe you don't believe that, but that is the argument that I am fighting.

But also I don't believe God just "chooses" to save some, He gives His good will to all, and all can receive His grace, but our "daily choosing", determines if we will be saved.

You should not be debating theology if you do not have a basic knowledge of Christian beliefs.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You should not be debating theology if you do not have a basic knowledge of Christian beliefs.

There are a vast array of beliefs in the Christian church (and cults) no one can know all of them. I have believed in FRee WIll my whole life, have studied the Early Church, and am passionate to bring the Free Will belief back to people enslaved by the teaching of "Predestination". I could say to you: "You have no right to teach Predestination" (opposed by the early church) if you have not studied the Early Church.

 

[A New Dawn]

There are a vast array of beliefs in the Christian church (and cults) no one can know all of them. I have believed in FRee WIll my whole life, have studied the Early Church, and am passionate to bring the Free Will belief back to people enslaved by the teaching of "Predestination". I could say to you: "You have no right to teach Predestination" (opposed by the early church) if you have not studied the Early Church.

If you read the scriptures you would know that predestined refers to being conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So, again, no, God doesn’t predestine people for hell.

BTW, you haven’t shared any scriptures that say salvation is a free will choice. I’m willing to read them in context and see what they mean once you post them, but someone’s opinion doesn’t make it scripture.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

BTW, you haven’t shared any scriptures that say salvation is a free will choice. I’m willing to read them in context and see what they mean once you post them, but someone’s opinion doesn’t make it scripture.

I did provide some scripture for you earlier, but you mentioned that "you would not read it" because "you disagreed with my statements about predestination and blindness". So I will repost here. WIth a slightly modified statement on blindness.

Calvinism states that God premits blindness for a portion of humanity, not giving them sight. But that is not how the Bible describes blindness. Here are a few scriptures:

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

In both of these cases God gives a “reason” for blindness, a love of sin, and lack of thankfulness. These things occur "before" a person is made blind. These passages must be taken into account whenever you hear blindness used in scripture. This blindness can occur at different times in a persons life, Judas as an example, was already perceived as a “Devil” at the time Jesus met him. God then used him (Judas) for a negative plan.

You mentioned there are no verses in the Bible that support the idea of free will. But that is untrue. There are many scriptures that give an “IF”, even Cain was given an if moment:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."​

God was not lying to Cain, if Cain did well he could be accepted. This is the same with cities, and nations.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

But this “IF” this choice is all throughout scripture in the OT. Now let’s look at a few scriptures regarding salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Job 36:10-12 above clearly shows how God give two “Salvation” choices to people, one of life one of death.

(SOme versions of) Calvinism forces salvation on given individuals, stating that God gifts the Holy Spirit to people not based upon any obedience, choice, etc. Just because God desires it. This is the same as Fatalism which was fought by the Early Church.

The reality of receiving the Holy Spirit is much different.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—​

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

The above scriptures which “are” talking about the Holy Spirit show that our response to God’s word, our obedience, leads to receiving the Holy Spirit. Judas who asked how blindness and sight works, was told by Jesus that obedience to God was the key. Those who obey “first” then receive the love of the Father. "First" meaning after God reaches out with His saving word. This is the same as the other passages I shared on blindness, blindness only occurs to those who “had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

Note I do not believe we are saved by our deeds, but that these scripture show there is a choice made by us. To explain this a little better. When we marry a person, we don't just put on a ring and say "I am married". We date, investigate the persons character, this is the same with salvation. When a person chooses to follow Christ, they "see" His character of forgiveness, and love, but also HIs desire for obedience. Although being married to Jesus (figuratively) is what saves, we also "choose" based upon knowing His character. A part of that is "knowing" that in order to be married to Christ, we will have to obey Him.

That's why the scripture states:

Joh 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

People who see the character of Jesus but wish to remain in their sin, are not eventually, saved.

 

[Hentenza]

You are entirely wrong on this point. I have read word for word the 1st century, and some second century Early Church Fathers and they all believed in free will. They taught it. You are just assuming not using the facts.

I think it strange that you say "thank goodness" for Clavinism, it is a destructive doctrine, that paints God as delighting in men's deaths. But in reality, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, and the cross has atoned for all men who choose to receive Him.

The ECF taught predestination and God’s elect. None of them ever taught that anyone had free will to not sin, for example. God has total foreknowledge of all past, present, and future human actions and all of peoples “choices”.

Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.2

And we will ask, with instancy of prayer and supplication, that the Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that has been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.59

But the white portion is the coming age, in which the elect of God shall dwell; because the elect of God shall be without spot and pure unto life eternal. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg. 18

God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.270

“But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son.” By which is made manifest, that all things which had been foreknown of the Father, our Lord did accomplish in their order, season, and hour, foreknown and fitting, being indeed one and the same, but rich and great. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 443

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him?Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 502

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

We are they “upon whom the ends of the ages have met, having ended their course.” We have been predestined by God, before the world was, (to arise) in the extreme end of the times. And so we are trained by God for the purpose of chastising, and (so to say) emasculating, the world. We are the circumcision – spiritual and carnal – of all things; for both in the spirit and in the flesh we circumcise worldly principles. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg.23

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The ECF taught predestination and God’s elect. None of them ever taught that anyone had free will to not sin, for example. God has total foreknowledge of all past, present, and future human actions and all of peoples “choices”.

Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.2

And we will ask, with instancy of prayer and supplication, that the Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that has been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world, through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name. Clement of Rome (A.D. 96) ch.59

But the white portion is the coming age, in which the elect of God shall dwell; because the elect of God shall be without spot and pure unto life eternal. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg. 18

God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.270

“But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son.” By which is made manifest, that all things which had been foreknown of the Father, our Lord did accomplish in their order, season, and hour, foreknown and fitting, being indeed one and the same, but rich and great. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 443

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him?Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 502

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

We are they “upon whom the ends of the ages have met, having ended their course.” We have been predestined by God, before the world was, (to arise) in the extreme end of the times. And so we are trained by God for the purpose of chastising, and (so to say) emasculating, the world. We are the circumcision – spiritual and carnal – of all things; for both in the spirit and in the flesh we circumcise worldly principles. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.4 pg.23

There is only one thing there that supports your case. That is:

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

Which I will investigate further. But you have not read what Justin Martyr actually believes you quoted the following because it contained the word "foreknown". He 100% believes in Free Will if you read his fullwrittings.

God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.270

Any fore knowledge that God has is not based upon a lack of Free Will.

 

[Hentenza]

There is only one thing there that supports your case. That is:

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

Which I will investigate further. But you have not read what Justin Martyr actually believes you quoted the following because it contained the word "foreknown". He 100% believes in Free Will if you read his fullwrittings.

God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.270

These are just a few quotes. All of them support my argument that the ECF’s did teach the elect and predestination. Also, for your reading pleasure.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world | New American Standard Bible - N

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

bible.com

Just one for now.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

These are just a few quotes. All of them support my argument that the ECF’s did teach the elect and predestination.

They use the term "elect" but that does not mean God selected some for salvation, and some for damnation, with no foresight to good works or deeds. I will do some more research into Clement, because he does appear to believe in "foreknowledge" (from your quote), but foreknowledge is different to choosing a person for salvation, it just means that God "somehow" knew.

I am being honest with you, and investigating his views on "foreknowledge", you be honest with me when I quote their beliefs regarding Free Will (below).

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110-165 - First Apology - Ch 43)​

​

With further investigation I will see what they believed fully. But Clement is a massive big book, so it may take a while for me to respond.

If you want to see arguments for and against Free Will from the ECF (that I have read) see The Way and Free Will it summarises both.

 

[A New Dawn]

I did provide some scripture for you earlier, but you mentioned that "you would not read it" because "you disagreed with my statements about predestination and blindness". So I will repost here. WIth a slightly modified statement on blindness.

Calvinism states that God premits blindness for a portion of humanity, not giving them sight. But that is not how the Bible describes blindness. Here are a few scriptures:

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

In both of these cases God gives a “reason” for blindness, a love of sin, and lack of thankfulness. These things occur "before" a person is made blind. These passages must be taken into account whenever you hear blindness used in scripture. This blindness can occur at different times in a persons life, Judas as an example, was already perceived as a “Devil” at the time Jesus met him. God then used him (Judas) for a negative plan.

You mentioned there are no verses in the Bible that support the idea of free will. But that is untrue. There are many scriptures that give an “IF”, even Cain was given an if moment:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."​

God was not lying to Cain, if Cain did well he could be accepted. This is the same with cities, and nations.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

But this “IF” this choice is all throughout scripture in the OT. Now let’s look at a few scriptures regarding salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Job 36:10-12 above clearly shows how God give two “Salvation” choices to people, one of life one of death.

(SOme versions of) Calvinism forces salvation on given individuals, stating that God gifts the Holy Spirit to people not based upon any obedience, choice, etc. Just because God desires it. This is the same as Fatalism which was fought by the Early Church.

The reality of receiving the Holy Spirit is much different.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—​

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

The above scriptures which “are” talking about the Holy Spirit show that our response to God’s word, our obedience, leads to receiving the Holy Spirit. Judas who asked how blindness and sight works, was told by Jesus that obedience to God was the key. Those who obey “first” then receive the love of the Father. "First" meaning after God reaches out with His saving word. This is the same as the other passages I shared on blindness, blindness only occurs to those who “had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

Note I do not believe we are saved by our deeds, but that these scripture show there is a choice made by us. To explain this a little better. When we marry a person, we don't just put on a ring and say "I am married". We date, investigate the persons character, this is the same with salvation. When a person chooses to follow Christ, they "see" His character of forgiveness, and love, but also HIs desire for obedience. Although being married to Jesus (figuratively) is what saves, we also "choose" based upon knowing His character. A part of that is "knowing" that in order to be married to Christ, we will have to obey Him.

That's why the scripture states:

Joh 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

People who see the character of Jesus but wish to remain in their sin, are not eventually, saved.

I notice that you cut out my scriptures regarding the meaning of “predestined”. You don’t have anything to say about it?

I read your scriptures about the “IF” passages, and one thing I note is that God’s talking to people or nations that are evil, or have hardened hearts. And while God may have been sincere in saying He would have blessed them if they turned from evil and put their faith in Him, he knew they wouldn’t. It’s like Jesus saying that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven, or when He says he hasn’t come to call the righteous but the sinners to repentance. He is talking about hardened hearts and the fact that someone who is rich or who sees himself as righteous, isn’t going to respond to the call.

I’ll have to respond to the others tomorrow. It’s late here.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The ECF taught predestination and God’s elect. None of them ever taught that anyone had free will to not sin, for example. God has total foreknowledge of all past, present, and future human actions and all of peoples “choices”.

....

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

I have been reading, very diligently the writings of Clement of Alexandria. There is no indication that He believed in Predestination (in a Calvinistic sense). On the contrary, he spoke of God creating man in His love, and because of his love for man, creating a way for man to be redeemed. From the passage you gave above, he may well believe in foreknowledge, in the sense of knowing what is to come, but he certainly did not see there to be two groups of people, as Calvinism suggests. He saw God in love creating man, and seeking them "all" for redemption.

Here are some quotes that show this.

But the Lord, in His love to man, invites all men to the knowledge of the truth, and for this end sends the Paraclete. – Exorhtation chapter 7-10​

​

Do not, however, faint. You may, if you choose, purchase salvation, though of inestimable value, with your own resources, love and living faith, which will be reckoned a suitable price. This recompense God cheerfully accepts; “for we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.” Exorhtation 7-10​

​

​

Those men that draw near through fear, He converts. E 7-10​

​

But it has been God’s fixed and constant purpose to save the flock of men: for this end the good God sent the good Shepherd. And the Word, having unfolded the truth, showed to men the height of salvation, that either repenting they might be saved, or refusing to obey, they might be judged. This is the proclamation of righteousness: to those that obey, glad tidings; to those that disobey, judgment. E 11- End​

​

​

What, then, is the exhortation I give you? I urge you to be saved. This Christ desires. In one word. He freely bestows life on you. E 11 – End​

​

to us who are obedient to the Word and masters of ourselves, who have believed, and are saved by voluntary choice, and are rationally, not irrationally, frightened by terror. Instructor Book 1 C6​

​

For the same who is Instructor is judge, and judges those who disobey Him; and the loving Word will not pass over their transgression in silence. He reproves, that they may repent. For “the Lord willeth the repentance of the sinner rather than his death.” Instructor Book 1 7-9​

​

By the little grain, as it is figuratively called, He bestows salvation on all humanity abundantly. I Book 1 10 - end​

The only thing he mentions that could be said to be about Predestination is:

But the Lord hath also said in Jeremiah: “Say not that I am a youth: before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before I brought thee out of the womb I sanctified thee.” (Jer_1:7) Such allusions prophecy can make to us, destined in the eye of God to faith before the foundation of the world; but now babes, through the recent fulfilment of the will of God 7-9​

Yet even that can mean God has desired for us to have faith.

 

[Hentenza]

They use the term "elect" but that does not mean God selected some for salvation, and some for damnation, with no foresight to good works or deeds.

God has foreknowledge of everything. This is an aspect of God that you deny but that it is an absolute truth. For this reason you misunderstand election thinking that is either or but it is not. I can prove from scripture that all are elect but not all choose Him. Mankind is fallen and incapable of choosing God on their own.

I will do some more research into Clement, because he does appear to believe in "foreknowledge" (from your quote), but foreknowledge is different to choosing a person for salvation, it just means that God "somehow" knew.

But you are going in the wrong direction. Let me ask you something, did Jesus elect the 12 apostles or did they, of their own free will, become His disciples?

I am being honest with you, and investigating his views on "foreknowledge", you be honest with me when I quote their beliefs regarding Free Will (below).

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110-165 - First Apology - Ch 43)​

​

With further investigation I will see what they believed fully. But Clement is a massive big book, so it may take a while for me to respond.

If you want to see arguments for and against Free Will from the ECF (that I have read) see The Way and Free Will it summarises both.

Ok. Looking forward to your response. I am honest in my beliefs every time but I am not just going to agree with you just for agreement sake. I think you understand that.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But you are going in the wrong direction. Let me ask you something, did Jesus elect the 12 apostles or did they, of their own free will, become His disciples?

Jesus knew what was in man. When he chose David, He said:

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Joh 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus also knew that the disciples were believing, apart from Judas (who loved money more than God).

God assesses our hearts; He knows what we think of all things, including what we think of God. When Jesus chose the disciples He would have done exactly what He did with King David, chose people with open hearts.

God initiates; He brings His word. Man responds. Then the Father pours out His love.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

God initiates, He brings His word.
We hear of Jesus and His grace

Man responds.
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word

Then the Father pours out His love.
and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

[A New Dawn]

Jesus knew what was in man. When he chose David, He said:

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Joh 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus also knew that the disciples were believing, apart from Judas (who loved money more than God).

God assesses our hearts; He knows what we think of all things, including what we think of God. When Jesus chose the disciples He would have done exactly what He did with King David, chose people with open hearts.

God initiates; He brings His word. Man responds. Then the Father pours out His love.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

God initiates, He brings His word.
We hear of Jesus and His grace

Man responds.
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word

Then the Father pours out His love.
and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

That is just not the way most salvation experiences play out, and the biggest example of that is Saul/Paul. God had to physically step in and physically stop him in his tracks. There was no “we hear of Jesus and his grace and make the choice for God”. And that is how many upon many conversions go. We were running long and hard from God and everything He represented when we were stopped in our tracks and He rushed in, making us His own in the blink of an eye. Maybe what you describe is how it happened with you, and that is cool, too, but you can’t make blanket statements about how it has to be for everyone.

But you know what’s good about God choosing and making the decision and drawing you and turning your heart and gifting you saving faith all on His own as described in John 6? It encompasses all types of salvation experiences because HE knows what you need, just like He knew what I needed, and what Saul/Paul needed.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

I know you believe in foreknowledge in the classical sense, so this will just be like water off a ducks back. But for me it opens up a whole set of questions.

THEORY 1
=======
Was the "choice" known to God. i.e. God before creation knew what the person would do, at the point of creation.

THEORY 2
=======
God knew the "choice" in the sense that He made it such that one who truly loved Him would be prepared to go to martyrdom. So knew the Martyr would choose love over comfort.

Why is this even important?

Well,THEORY 1, would make God's nature such that He, before creation, knew every choice people would make, and desired to set creation into motion.

Why I find difficult to reconcile is God in scripture clearly states that He wished He had not created man. So how could God know every choice before the creation, and still desire creation.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It encompasses all types of salvation experiences because HE knows what you need, just like He knew what I needed, and what Saul/Paul needed.

There is no denying what God is merciful. It is not about our perfect response. It is about God's mercy. But as for Saul/Paul, he himself states he could have been disobedient to the heavenly vision.

Act 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,