Who is really responsible for Salvation?

[FutureAndAHope]

God knows all things. He’s never surprised, IOW. But He uses our foreknown choices to ultimately bring about His plans, rather than predetermining those choices.

Personally, I don't believe God knows our choices. He certainly constrains what we can do, so in that regard, He has a kind of foreknowledge.

Why do I say that:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​

We see that God saw the wickedness of man, and was sorry for creating man. If God had a kind of foreknowledge that "knew all things" ahead of time, He would never have created man.

We also see in:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."​

The LORD was not prepared to spend more than 120 years drawing man to Himself. This shows He "discovered" that man does not repent over longer ages.

In regard to fee will, God's planning, and our choices I quote from my free online resource at The Way and Free Will

The Two-way Plan for Man, Destiny and Our Choices​

To explore God’s plan, and how it flexes with our obedience or lack of it, we will go to King David. In the Psalms he wrote:

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)​

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother’s womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see Jeremiah:

Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations. (NKJV, Jeremiah 1:5)​

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. I believe that God has a plan for each of us, a good plan. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we and others do. Free will guides our end destination.

King David for example sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own. What did God say of this?

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)​

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things:

1) God said “I would have given you much more” If David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more.

2) God said “Because you wouldn’t obey me” A curse came into his life.

3) God says “Behold, I will raise evil against thee out of thine own house,” God changed David’s story.

So God changed David’s plan for His life. Bringing a corrective one. It is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our story will change. Our life is not set to one story but is bound to our actions.

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (Jeremiah 18:10)​

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling. When complaining to God, the LORD replied to Jeremiah:

Therefore thus says the LORD: “If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth. Let them return to you, But you must not return to them. (NKJV, Jeremiah 15:19)​

God stated “if” you return to me you shall be my mouth piece. There are many ifs in our lives, if we do well God will bless, if we don’t then a curse can come. This is even seen in the life of Cain the first person to be given a curse by God for the murder of his brother. But before this death occurred God said to Cain:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. (NKJV, Genesis 4:7)​

God plainly told Cain, he has power to be accepted by God if he did well. The initial rejection by God was the thing Cain was angry about (Genesis 4:5), his brother’s offering was accepted by God due to it being the best of his brother’s flock, the scripture suggests Cain had begrudgingly offered a lesser gift. This shows firstly that even people like Cain could have been blessed by God, even saved eternally, if they listened to God’s warning. But unfortunately Cain rather desired revenge on his brother, ignoring God, thus resulting in God’s severe displeasure.

 

[fhansen]

Personally, I don't believe God knows our choices. He certainly constrains what we can do, so in that regard, He has a kind of foreknowledge.

Why do I say that:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

We see that God saw the wickedness of man, and was sorry for creating man. If God had a kind of foreknowledge that "knew all things" ahead of time, He would never have created man.

We also see in:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

The LORD was not prepared to spend more than 120 years drawing man to Himself. This shows He "discovered" that man does not repent over longer ages.

Fair enough. Personally I think God can't help but know everything and that a lot of biblical descriptions are anthropomorphic in nature, with the author trying the best he can to understand and express the particular matter in those terms. But someday we'll know for sure, of course.

 

[A New Dawn]

Calvinism paints a picture of a God who preplanned the salvation of each individual, that the number that was to be saved was fixed before creation, and that the will or actions of man play no part in man's eternal destiny. As stated in The Westminster Confession of Faith:

God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace….The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Westminster Divines, 2021)​

​

The idea (above) of God fixing destinies was not believed for the first 400 years of recorded Christian history. Those who came directly after the Apostles believed our actions determine if we are saved. The Earliest Church Leaders believed in Free Will theology. The idea that we work in Synergy with God, that our actions, either good or evil, determine if we are saved. Making statements like:

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

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So what am I posting today? Well, I was doing my daily Bible reading, and came across the following which supports the Free Will, argument.

1Sa 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: 'I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says: 'Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.​

​

Firstly, it shows that God's plan is not fixed, that when He decrees a thing, He does change His mind, based upon man's actions. If everything was predestined, then He would "know all things", and would never have made the statement.

Secondly, it shows there is an action of man's that brings God's honor, or displeasure.

for those who honor Me I will honor​

and

and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed​

Considering the copious writings of Paul, who completely disagrees with you, I highly doubt that the early church overwhelmingly believed in free will. It might have evolved into free will choice by the time the Catholic Church solidified its hold on Christianity, but there were many speaking out who did not believe all that the Catholic Church preached. St. Augustine was one who embraced many aspects of Calvinism. But even though the Catholic Church eventually went down the road it chose, thank goodness there were those who could read the scriptures and print the scriptures so everyone could understand the errors the church embraced and begin to teach true scriptural Christianity.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Considering the copious writings of Paul, who completely disagrees with you, I highly doubt that the early church overwhelmingly believed in free will. It might have evolved into free will choice by the time the Catholic Church solidified its hold on Christianity, but there were many speaking out who did not believe all that the Catholic Church preached. St. Augustine was one who embraced many aspects of Calvinism. But even though the Catholic Church eventually went down the road it chose, thank goodness there were those who could read the scriptures and print the scriptures so everyone could understand the errors the church embraced and begin to teach true scriptural Christianity.

You are entirely wrong on this point. I have read word for word the 1st century, and some second century Early Church Fathers and they all believed in free will. They taught it. You are just assuming not using the facts.

I think it strange that you say "thank goodness" for Clavinism, it is a destructive doctrine, that paints God as delighting in men's deaths. But in reality, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, and the cross has atoned for all men who choose to receive Him.

 

[A New Dawn]

You are entirely wrong on this point. I have read word for word the 1st century, and some second century Early Church Fathers and they all believed in free will. They taught it. You are just assuming not using the facts.

I think it strange that you say "thank goodness" for Clavinism, it is a destructive doctrine, that paints God as delighting in men's deaths. But in reality, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, and the cross has atoned for all men who choose to receive Him.

What I said was thank goodness the Bible was published and man didn’t have to rely on false teachings anymore, and that men from within the church were bold enough to step forward and take a stand on the errors being perpetuated by the church.

Please don’t put words in my mouth just because you have a shaky argument.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What I said was thank goodness the Bible was published and man didn’t have to rely on false teachings anymore, and that men from within the church were bold enough to step forward and take a stand on the errors being perpetuated by the church.

The reformers helped to deal with some errors in the church, but they also introduced their own errors with the creation of Calvinism. If you study the Early Church Fathers, you will see they taught free will because some of the church had introduced pagan Fatalism into its beliefs. Fatalism is similar to Calvinism but has Roman and Greek origins; early Calvinistic thought came from Fatalism, not from within the church. When I say within the church, the guys who taught free will, were students of people who knew the Apostles.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110-165 - First Apology - Ch 43)

 

[A New Dawn]

The reformers helped to deal with some errors in the church, but they also introduced their own errors with the creation of Calvinism. If you study the Early Church Fathers, you will see they taught free will because some of the church had introduced pagan Fatalism into its beliefs. Fatalism is similar to Calvinism but has Roman and Greek origins; early Calvinistic thought came from Fatalism, not from within the church. When I say within the church, the guys who taught free will, were students of people who knew the Apostles.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110-165 - First Apology - Ch 43)

You are welcome to put whatever faith you want into fallible men, I prefer to read the Bible for what it says and, without the aid of anyone like Calvin or anyone else you might think poisoned the well, I see the Doctrines of Grace throughout the Bible. That is the glory of being able to read the Bible in person. We don’t have to put our faith in anyone besides Christ.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You are welcome to put whatever faith you want into fallible men, I prefer to read the Bible for what it says and, without the aid of anyone like Calvin or anyone else you might think poisoned the well, I see the Doctrines of Grace throughout the Bible. That is the glory of being able to read the Bible in person. We don’t have to put our faith in anyone besides Christ.

I read the same bible, but come to a different conclusion, so you can't use the "I read the bible" argument. That is why the Early Church writings are so important, they show which of the two trains of thought were actually taught in the early church. I believe as they do that, sensibly, the cross is given to all who will receive it.

Below I quote some of the scriptures that show that all means both Jew and Gentile, all people of the world.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

The fact is Jesus’s ransom was given for all men, for there is not one that God does not love. For God is love.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​

However, Predestination tries hard to say “all does not mean all”, for they believe only a select few will be chosen by God for salvation, the rest are forced into damnation, the damned never loved by God, never given a chance. But scripture clearly states all men were loved by God.

because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)

 

[Brightfame52]

You are entirely wrong on this point. I have read word for word the 1st century, and some second century Early Church Fathers and they all believed in free will. They taught it. You are just assuming not using the facts.

I think it strange that you say "thank goodness" for Clavinism, it is a destructive doctrine, that paints God as delighting in men's deaths. But in reality, He does not delight in the death of the wicked, and the cross has atoned for all men who choose to receive Him.

The Mystery of iniquity crept into the church prior to 1st century fathers, it was well at work during the Apostles ministry 2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The antichrist were already many during their time 1 Jn 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[A New Dawn]

I read the same bible, but come to a different conclusion, so you can't use the "I read the bible" argument. That is why the Early Church writings are so important, they show which of the two trains of thought were actually taught in the early church. I believe as they do that, sensibly, the cross is given to all who will receive it.

Below I quote some of the scriptures that show that all means both Jew and Gentile, all people of the world.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

The fact is Jesus’s ransom was given for all men, for there is not one that God does not love. For God is love.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​

However, Predestination tries hard to say “all does not mean all”, for they believe only a select few will be chosen by God for salvation, the rest are forced into damnation, the damned never loved by God, never given a chance. But scripture clearly states all men were loved by God.

because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)

Yes. Yes I can read the Bible and see and understand what God leads me to see and understand without putting faith in people that often have agendas of their own. For some reason that I can’t comprehend, despite overwhelming scriptural evidence to the contrary, people feel a need to be responsible for their own salvation. Unfortunately for them, salvation is not theirs to give or take, it is God’s domain. It is God’s gift to man, from beginning to end. God is the author and finisher of our faith. Our role in our salvation is limited to our response to the Holy Spirit as it seeks to conform us to the likeness of Christ.

But, like I said, if you feel the need to listen to fallible men in order to feel you are in control of your own salvation, go right ahead. I am giving God the glory and praise for the work HE has done in my life!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes. Yes I can read the Bible and see and understand what God leads me to see and understand without putting faith in people that often have agendas of their own. For some reason that I can’t comprehend, despite overwhelming scriptural evidence to the contrary, people feel a need to be responsible for their own salvation. Unfortunately for them, salvation is not theirs to give or take, it is God’s domain. It is God’s gift to man, from beginning to end. God is the author and finisher of our faith. Our role in our salvation is limited to our response to the Holy Spirit as it seeks to conform us to the likeness of Christ.

But, like I said, if you feel the need to listen to fallible men in order to feel you are in control of your own salvation, go right ahead. I am giving God the glory and praise for the work HE has done in my life!

No one denies that salvation is God's work. No person is saved by "perfect righteousness". But God has given man a choice, to live His way, or be self seeking. You choose lots of things daily, how can you say we can't "choose" to live God's way. The scripture is clear salvation is given to all, but only those who, choose to receive Jesus, and try to walk under His direction will be saved.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Mystery of iniquity crept into the church prior to 1st century fathers, it was well at work during the Apostles ministry 2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The antichrist were already many during their time 1 Jn 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

These church leaders were a part of the "church", taught by the Apostles, or their disciples. They were not anti-Christs.

 

[A New Dawn]

No one denies that salvation is God's work. No person is saved by "perfect righteousness". But God has given man a choice, to live His way, or be self seeking. You choose lots of things daily, how can you say we can't "choose" to live God's way. The scripture is clear salvation is given to all, but only those who, choose to receive Jesus, and try to walk under His direction will be saved.

Please show me the scriptures that say salvation is given to all. All the scriptures I know say the exact opposite.

Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Jesus spoke in parables so those without ears to hear wouldn’t hear.

John 6. All of it.

And then post some scriptures that demonstrate we can choose or not choose. There is no such thing as free will in the scriptures. First, until Jesus turns our heart to himself, we can only choose out of our fallen nature because we are dead in our sins, therefore our will is not free.

For scriptures supporting man’s inability to choose see John 6 (again) and Romans 3:11-17.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Please show me the scriptures that say salvation is given to all. All the scriptures I know say the exact opposite.

Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Jesus spoke in parables so those without ears to hear wouldn’t hear.

John 6. All of it.

And then post some scriptures that demonstrate we can choose or not choose. There is no such thing as free will in the scriptures. First, until Jesus turns our heart to himself, we can only choose out of our fallen nature because we are dead in our sins, therefore our will is not free.

For scriptures supporting man’s inability to choose see John 6 (again) and Romans 3:11-17.

I am at work at the moment. So I don't have the time to do a lengthy reply, will do one tonight. In the meantime, have a look at my free online book that I wrote on the topic of Free Will. It explains the concept of free will in detail. The Way and Free Will

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Jesus spoke in parables so those without ears to hear wouldn’t hear.

This is a really big topic, and will be hard to cram with in a post. But here goes.

Firstly, we will examine the topic of blindness, Calvinism basically states that God forces a portion of the world to be blind to the truth, the only reason given is so that they can be damned and God can pour out His anger on them.

But that is not how the Bible describes blindness. Here are a few scriptures:

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

In both of these cases God gives a “reason” for blindness, a love of sin, and lack of thankfulness. These passages must be taken into account whenever you hear blindness used in scripture. This blindness can occur at different times in a persons life, Judas as an example, was already perceived as a “Devil” at the time Jesus met him. God then used him (Judas) for a negative plan.

You mentioned there are no verses in the Bible that support the idea of free will. But that is untrue. There are many scriptures that give an “IF”, even Cain was given an if moment:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."​

God was not lying to Cain, if Cain did well he could be accepted. This is the same with cities, and nations.

Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​

But this “IF” this choice is all throughout scripture in the OT. Now let’s look at a few scriptures regarding salvation:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Job 36:10-12 above clearly shows how God give two “Salvation” choices to people, one of life one of death.

Calvinism forces salvation on given individuals, stating that God gifts the Holy Spirit to people not based upon any obedience, choice, etc. Just because God desires it. This is the same as Fatalism which was fought by the Early Church.

The reality of receiving the Holy Spirit is much different.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—​

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

The above scriptures which “are” talking about the Holy Spirit show that our response to God’s word, our obedience, leads to receiving the Holy Spirit. Judas who asked how blindness and sight works, was told by Jesus that obedience to God was the key. Those who obey “first” then receive the love of the Father. First meaning after God reaches out with His saving word. This is the same as the other passages I shared on blindness, blindness only occurs to those who “had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

 

[David Lamb]

This is a really big topic, and will be hard to cram with in a post. But here goes.

Firstly, we will examine the topic of blindness, Calvinism basically states that God forces a portion of the world to be blind to the truth, the only reason given is so that they can be damned and God can pour out His anger on them.

No, Calvinism does not state that. Rather, it says that unsaved sinners are "dead in trespasses and sins," and that the natural man (that is, the unsaved sinner) cannot understand spiritual things:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Not that God forces blindness upon them.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, Calvinism does not state that. Rather, it says that unsaved sinners are "dead in trespasses and sins," and that the natural man (that is, the unsaved sinner) cannot understand spiritual things:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

Not that God forces blindness upon them.

Calvinism states that God, before creation, predetermined "who" would be saved. One saved, One damned. Who made that "choice" according to Calvinism? God, man? You can pretty it up with bible verses, but the reality is grim.

 

[David Lamb]

Calvinism states that God, before creation, predetermined "who" would be saved. One saved, One damned. Who made that "choice" according to Calvinism? God, man? You can pretty it up with bible verses, but the reality is grim.

It is not prettying up anything to say that the bible teaches that sin has caused man to be alienated from God, or "dead in trespasses and sins" as Ephesians 2 puts it. There was no need for God to force anybody into blindness to His truth; that is our natural condition.

 

[Brightfame52]

These church leaders were a part of the "church", taught by the Apostles, or their disciples. They were not anti-Christs.

Dont matter who they were. Paul warned false teachers would arise from among the flock he taught Acts 20:28-30

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[A New Dawn]

This is a really big topic, and will be hard to cram with in a post. But here goes.

Firstly, we will examine the topic of blindness, Calvinism basically states that God forces a portion of the world to be blind to the truth, the only reason given is so that they can be damned and God can pour out His anger on them.

No, Calvinism doesn’t state anything of the kind. This is just a purposeful lie on your part. Calvinism states that God created man in His own image and called it very good. You are really stooping low to suggest that anyone who believes in Christ and knows the loving attributes of God would even suggest that that is the attitude He would have about any of his creation.

The reality that YOU purposely ignore is that man rebelled against a holy, loving God, after God laid out the provisions of the covenant, and God was forced to expel him from the garden. God was grieved. YOU twisting the reality to suit your own desires only makes you look petty, and shows that you don’t have any intention to participate in a serious conversation.

The rest of your post isn’t worth addressing in light of the purposeful lies in your opening remarks.