How do we set aside the grace of God?

[SabbathBlessings]

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. NKJV

Only people under the law can commit lawlessness.

I was hoping you would engage in the Scriptures I posted that you are replying to, but if you want to go to the next argument that's fine.

The very verse you quoted tells us what under the law means and who is under it,

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

It means being guilty before God or under the condemnation/ penalty of the law- the wages of sin (breaking God's law I John 3:4) is death Rom 6:23. Not, I choose not to obey God's Law therefore I am not under it., This is the exact opposite of what it means.

We can see this clearly in Paul's other teachings

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

But he goes on to list several commandments saying if breaking we will not inherit God's Kingdom, just as see at His Second Coming Rev 22:14-15 Mat 7:21-23, so it doesn't mean not keeping God's Law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; NKJV

If anyone believes, their righteousness is apart from the law. Our righteousness is the righteousness of God meaning we have the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. NKJV
The God whose righteousness we have, is Jesus. In other words, everything that Jesus did to be righteous is imputed to us.

If we have the righteousness of God would we live as Jesus live? Was Jesus a sinner and broke God's law? He was not- so how can we say if we have His righteousness, we are doing the opposite of what Jesus taught and lived for our example

1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
1Pe 2:22 "WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH";

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. NKJV

Jesus made sure that He did everything to fulfill all righteousness so we would not have to work for it. Since He fulfilled all righteous He did everything required to be righteous and we have His works imputed to us. As stated above He repented for us as repentance from sin is required under the law. He also did everything required in the law to be righteous, that includes doing the ten commandments. If He did not do the ten commandments, He did not fulfill all righteousness for us.

Jesus did fulfill all righteousness, but does that mean we are free to now worship other gods or steal from our neighbor? I am pretty sure He fulfilling righteousness, was not so that we can sin and practice unrighteousness

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'" NKJV

We who have believed do enter that rest.

You missed some context which started in Hebrews 3. Yes, those who believe enter His rest, but unbelief, sin (breaking God's law) and rebellion are all the same and those who do this, do not enter . This is quoting OT and many of the Israelites never entered into their promised land due to disobedience. Heb 4:6 Eze 20:13 The writer of Hebrews is telling us not to follow in the same example Heb 4:11of those who were tested in the wilderness before us, as we are also being tested.


Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. NKJV

Amen, but lets bring in some more context.

There are two rests that are being referred to and we can see that by the word ALSO which means in addition to.

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

When did God cease from His works? This very passage tells us

Heb 4:4 For He (God) has spoken in a certain place (Mt Sinai) of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

The writer is calling us back to the 4th commandment

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

To enter His rest one ALSO rests as God did, on the seventh day.

That means we do not have to work to be righteous. Am I advocating that we do nothing? No. I say we do everything that He convicts us of. We also do everything we should do to show the world we are His children and to be good witnesses. We do that out of our love for Him, not because we need to do it to be righteous.

If we are abiding in Him He will impute His righteousness as we have all sinned and have none of our own. But what does that look like according to Christ's owns Words- how does someone abide in Him

Joh 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Joh 15:9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1Jn 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Just as Abraham did. He was made righteous by faith, but what does faith look like? Rom 3:31 Obedient to God and His Law or disobedient?

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

If we are not doing what He convicts us of and we are not good witnesses by our behavior, we are not in the walking Spirit. God will chastise us if we do not walk in the Spirit.

The Spirit convicts us of sin if we hear His voice John 16:8 and is given to help us obey His commandments John 14:15-30 and resides in the individuals who obey Him Acts 5:32

1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

God chastises us so we will not be condemned with the world. If die under chastisement we will go to heaven.

If we conform to the Spirit

We walk in the Spirit not for salvation, but to continue to live in the flesh.

We walk in the Spirit for salvation without Him we are nothing

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


If we are living the the flesh we are an enmity to God and not subject to God's law - so that's not where we want to be

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. - See what that looks like Mat 19:17-19 Isa 48:18
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

If we love Jesus we are going to want to obey Him and His commandments, not to be saved, but as a result of our salvation in Christ

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

This is the faith that reconciles us

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[fli]

I was hoping you would engage in the Scriptures I posted that you are replying to, but if you want to go to the next argument that's fine.

The very verse you quoted tells us what under the law means and who is under it,

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, NKJV

The gentiles were never given the law therefore they could not be accountable for observing the law. If they did, they were a law to themselves, In chapter 1 God explained why those without the law were in sin. Then in chapter 2 Paul explains why the Jews were in sin. Chapter 2 verse 9 Paul is writing to the Jews and 10-18 is written in the Psalms and is speaking of Israel. Just because Israel had the law it made them guilty as those in the world who did not have the law because no one would be justified by the law. The entire world is guilty of sin, even Israel because whatever the law said it said to those under the law.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NKJV

The law did not increase Israel's righteousness as they thought. God gave the law so that sin would increase. Israel under the law was more sinful than without the law. So did God mean to curse Israel by giving it the law? No, As verse 21 states, grace abounded more. That means those who believed their righteous came from God and not from their works received grace.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NKJV

No. The law was gave to Israel so they would see the need for a savior. Those Israelis who were proud of their righteous because of their works of law for their righteousness were still not righteous. Those Israelis who observed the law because they believed God were made righteous by their faith.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. NKJV

God never gave the gentiles the law and sin is not impute where there is no law. God gave the law to Israel through Moses in the first covenant. Israel was the only one who was accountable to observe the law. Does that mean that the gentiles were not committing sin? No. They were sinners because they did not believe God.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

No one was ever judged for sins under the law. Verse 25 God passed over the sins that were previously committed to demonstrate His righteousness. God would be unrighteous to punish someone in Israel for violation of the sabbath and not punish the gentiles, who never had the law, for not observing the sabbath. The only thing that will send people to hell is their not believing God.

Numbers 15:32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. NKJV

I'm sure that you think I misunderstand verse 21 above. All I know is God has said that He has left violations of the law unpunished from the garden until Jesus came. Well, what about the flood, Sodom and the incident above. Why did God destroy in the flood and Sodom?

Daniel 4:4 I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at rest in my house, and flourishing in my palace. 5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts on my bed and the visions of my head troubled me. 6 Therefore I issued a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known to me the interpretation of the dream. …...........................................................13 "I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. …..........................................................................17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.' ….......................................................................................................................37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down. NKJV

Please read the entire episode yourself. I cite this to explain why God did certain things in the past. God did the above to keep His plan of Israel being returned to their land as per His prophecy. He had watchers throughout the entire world who report to God when He had to intervene to keep His plan of salvation one track and happen at the perfect time. In the above the fame of David became known throughout Babylon. The value of Hebrew advisors to the king was established and carried into Mede-Persia after they came into power. Hebrew advisors were in place in Persia when needed to get Israel back in its land.

The sins of the world in Noah's time, in Sodom and the in the land He gave to Israel had reached the point they could ruin His plan of salvation, so He acted. You probably will say: “It still doesn't prove they were not punished for their sins?” You are right. But I believe God. He said that He did not punish them for their sins, and I believe Him. As I said Sodom and the rest were because sin had reached it's max and God had to intervene. I believe that God did not send them to Hell for their sins. He sent most if not all to hell because they did not believe Him and therefore, they were sinners. The incident in numbers, sounds like discipline to me. If so, the man went to paradise when he died. If not, then he was sent to hell for not believing God and he was a sinner. The only thing people will be punished for is not believing God, and they will be sinners because they are saying that God is a liar.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. NKJV

God has stated the same thing many times. Do you believe God? I have explained, and given proof, of why God acted in certain situations in the past. You can cite many scriptures that you think support your view. I am certain of my position because I believe God.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. NKJV

In Jesus you are under grace not the law. The law describes sin, observing it does not give you righteousness. Jesus does if you believe. The

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, NKJV

Faith gives grace, even to those who were under the law. Observing the law does not make you righteous, Jesus gives us grace if we believe.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? NKJV

We are under grace not under the law. That does not give us license to act as disobedient children.

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

If you observe the law to be righteous, you set aside grace.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Observing the law to be righteous separates you from Jesus and His grace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, NKJV

The gentiles were never given the law therefore they could not be accountable for observing the law. If they did, they were a law to themselves, In chapter 1 God explained why those without the law were in sin. Then in chapter 2 Paul explains why the Jews were in sin. Chapter 2 verse 9 Paul is writing to the Jews and 10-18 is written in the Psalms and is speaking of Israel. Just because Israel had the law it made them guilty as those in the world who did not have the law because no one would be justified by the law. The entire world is guilty of sin, even Israel because whatever the law said it said to those under the law.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NKJV

The law did not increase Israel's righteousness as they thought. God gave the law so that sin would increase. Israel under the law was more sinful than without the law. So did God mean to curse Israel by giving it the law? No, As verse 21 states, grace abounded more. That means those who believed their righteous came from God and not from their works received grace.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NKJV

No. The law was gave to Israel so they would see the need for a savior. Those Israelis who were proud of their righteous because of their works of law for their righteousness were still not righteous. Those Israelis who observed the law because they believed God were made righteous by their faith.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. NKJV

God never gave the gentiles the law and sin is not impute where there is no law. God gave the law to Israel through Moses in the first covenant. Israel was the only one who was accountable to observe the law. Does that mean that the gentiles were not committing sin? No. They were sinners because they did not believe God.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

No one was ever judged for sins under the law. Verse 25 God passed over the sins that were previously committed to demonstrate His righteousness. God would be unrighteous to punish someone in Israel for violation of the sabbath and not punish the gentiles, who never had the law, for not observing the sabbath. The only thing that will send people to hell is their not believing God.

Numbers 15:32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. NKJV

I'm sure that you think I misunderstand verse 21 above. All I know is God has said that He has left violations of the law unpunished from the garden until Jesus came. Well, what about the flood, Sodom and the incident above. Why did God destroy in the flood and Sodom?

Daniel 4:4 I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at rest in my house, and flourishing in my palace. 5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts on my bed and the visions of my head troubled me. 6 Therefore I issued a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known to me the interpretation of the dream. …...........................................................13 "I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. …..........................................................................17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.' ….......................................................................................................................37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down. NKJV

Please read the entire episode yourself. I cite this to explain why God did certain things in the past. God did the above to keep His plan of Israel being returned to their land as per His prophecy. He had watchers throughout the entire world who report to God when He had to intervene to keep His plan of salvation one track and happen at the perfect time. In the above the fame of David became known throughout Babylon. The value of Hebrew advisors to the king was established and carried into Mede-Persia after they came into power. Hebrew advisors were in place in Persia when needed to get Israel back in its land.

The sins of the world in Noah's time, in Sodom and the in the land He gave to Israel had reached the point they could ruin His plan of salvation, so He acted. You probably will say: “It still doesn't prove they were not punished for their sins?” You are right. But I believe God. He said that He did not punish them for their sins, and I believe Him. As I said Sodom and the rest were because sin had reached it's max and God had to intervene. I believe that God did not send them to Hell for their sins. He sent most if not all to hell because they did not believe Him and therefore, they were sinners. The incident in numbers, sounds like discipline to me. If so, the man went to paradise when he died. If not, then he was sent to hell for not believing God and he was a sinner. The only thing people will be punished for is not believing God, and they will be sinners because they are saying that God is a liar.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. NKJV

God has stated the same thing many times. Do you believe God? I have explained, and given proof, of why God acted in certain situations in the past. You can cite many scriptures that you think support your view. I am certain of my position because I believe God.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. NKJV

In Jesus you are under grace not the law. The law describes sin, observing it does not give you righteousness. Jesus does if you believe. The

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, NKJV

Faith gives grace, even to those who were under the law. Observing the law does not make you righteous, Jesus gives us grace if we believe.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? NKJV

We are under grace not under the law. That does not give us license to act as disobedient children.

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

If you observe the law to be righteous, you set aside grace.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Observing the law to be righteous separates you from Jesus and His grace.

I was still hoping you would engaged in the Scriptures I posted, just keep going to the next argument. We truly can make any case we want but using a verse here or there without understanding the context of what is being discussed or how it relates to other Scriptures.

For example, in Galatians the law Paul is referring to is circumcision Gal 2:3.

In context, Paul is correcting that the Jews were trying to force new Gentile converts to getting circumcised in order to hear the gospel Gal 2:3 and for salvation Acts 15:1 as they were teaching all they had to do is get circumcised in order to be saved apart from Christ.

We also need to understand the role of circumcision, it was never meant to save anyone, it was the OT sign of God separating His people from everyone else.

Only His people had the cure for sin.

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

So if a Gentile sinned, the only way to get access to the OT cure of animal sacrifices in the temple was to be circumcised

Exo 12:43 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it.
Exo 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

Jesus at the Cross took away this enmity for the OT cure for sin that the Jews were trying to say under-which doing without Christ would have to make animal sacrifices for sin, but that would make Christ's death in vain.


Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The Ten Commandments is the description of sin 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Rom 7:7

Why Paul contrasted circumcision with the commandments of God

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Right now you are making the law that defines what sin is (breaking God's laws 1 John 3:4) the same law that was added because God's law was broken, until the Seed came. They can't be the same law.

The law until the Seed was animal sacrifices

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The law that defines what the description of sin is when breaking is the Ten Commandments is still sin for all people in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Rom 7:7

The argument that Jew should only worship God, but the Gentiles can worship any god, or the Jews only can't steal or murder, or vain God's holy name, or break His holy Sabbath, but Gentiles can is not a doctrine from Scripture. Why Jesus said "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments and teaches other to break will be least in heaven and if we look at the very next verse v20 means not there.

Sometimes is helps to work backwards. At the coming of Jesus Christ did He those who practice lawlessness (without law) will be saved? He very ,much said the opposite. If He is saying depart from Me those who practice lawlessness it means we should keep His laws through faith and love John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 Rev 14:12

If we can't believe His words, mine will mean nothing. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree and all will get sorted out soon enough.



Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

Thanks for the chat and God bless!

 

[fli]

You are again conflating skin-and-bones with the worldly oriented mind.
My skin-and-bones cannot make me sin.
They are the instruments of a new creature born from God's seed.

You are saying that you do not sin at all. According to you if anyone sins, they are in Satan's kingdom and not saved.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. NKJV

According to Jame if anyone shows partiality to a person it is a sin because we are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. If you break on law, you become a break the entire law.

Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? NKJV

There is no doubt in my mind the above is a true account of what Peter did.

Peter showed partiality to His Jewish brothers and would not associate with gentile Christians.

Yet you insist that no one in Christ can sin and you are sinless.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. NKJV

The above scripture says anyone claiming to be without sin is making Jesus a liar.

Please do not reply to me on any topic or subject any more anymore.

 

[Hoping2]

You are saying that you do not sin at all. According to you if anyone sins, they are in Satan's kingdom and not saved.

That is correct.
It is written..." Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. NKJV
According to James if anyone shows partiality to a person it is a sin because we are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. If you break one law, you become a break the entire law.

It depends on the nature of that partiality.
Is it a sin to pick the best hitter for my baseball team ? No.

Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? NKJV
There is no doubt in my mind the above is a true account of what Peter did.
Peter showed partiality to His Jewish brothers and would not associate with gentile Christians.

What you call a sin, I call condescending to visitors.
Do you use "the good china" when company comes over ? Or "the good towels" ?
Is that a sin ? No.
Peter wanted the visiting Jews to feel at ease.
In doing so, he inadvertently missed the opportunity to show those visiting Jews that the Law had been fulfilled in Christ and that there was no longer any separation between Jew and Gentile.

Yet you insist that no one in Christ can sin and you are sinless.

Of course, as there is no darkness in light, and thanks be to God, I walk in the light.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. NKJV
The above scripture says anyone claiming to be without sin is making Jesus a liar.

John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B, style of writing in 1 John 1.
By doing so, he juxtaposes two positions against each other, showing how dissimilar they are.
The two positions are: walking in God-the light, and walking in sin-darkness.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, apply to those walking in sin.
It is those walking in sin who cannot honestly say they have no sin.
They can't say they have fellowship with God either, (v6), nor can they even say they know God ! (1 John 2:3)
Verses 5, 7, and 9, apply o those who are in, or about to enter, God-the light...in Whom is no sin-darkness.
(Paul uses the same style of writing in Rom 8, where he juxtaposes walking in the Spirit against walking in the "flesh".

Please do not reply to me on any topic or subject any more anymore.

It seemed like a waste, to not post this after spending so much time on it.

 

[fli]

I was still hoping you would engaged in the Scriptures I posted, just keep going to the next argument. We truly can make any case we want but using a verse here or there without understanding the context of what is being discussed or how it relates to other Scriptures.

For example, in Galatians the law Paul is referring to is circumcision Gal 2:3.

In the Romans scripture I cited Paul was referring to the entire law.

In Galatians 2 Paul is referring to circumcision. If you believe in Jesus, we have His righteousness. We do not have to do any work to be righteous. By putting their faith in circumcision, they did not believe Jesus made them righteous they would be relying on their work of circumcision.

In context, Paul is correcting that the Jews were trying to force new Gentile converts to getting circumcised in order to hear the gospel Gal 2:3 and for salvation Acts 15:1 as they were teaching all they had to do is get circumcised in order to be saved apart from Christ.

We also need to understand the role of circumcision, it was never meant to save anyone, it was the OT sign of God separating His people from everyone else.

Only His people had the cure for sin.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! NKJV

Job was not an Israeli, yet he believed in his redeemer. He did not have the law.

Job 31:23 For destruction from God is a terror to me, And because of His magnificence I cannot endure. 24 "If I have made gold my hope,
Or said to fine gold, 'You are my confidence'; NKJV

Job believed God would provide a redeemer for him. Read the first chapter of Romans and it explains how Job could have known. There was a local pastor that went through the Zodiac and explained how it spelled out God's plan of salvation. each sign had 3 decants and told different parts of the story.

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

So if a Gentile sinned, the only way to get access to the OT cure of animal sacrifices in the temple was to be circumcised

See above

Why Paul contrasted circumcision with the commandments of God

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Right now you are making the law that defines what sin is (breaking God's laws 1 John 3:4) the same law that was added because God's law was broken, until the Seed came. They can't be the same law.

The law until the Seed was animal sacrifices

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

If you believe in Jesus, we have His righteousness imputed to us

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The law that defines what the description of sin is when breaking is the Ten Commandments is still sin for all people in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11 Rom 7:7

The argument that Jew should only worship God, but the Gentiles can worship any god, or the Jews only can't steal or murder, or vain God's holy name, or break His holy Sabbath, but Gentiles can is not a doctrine from Scripture. Why Jesus said "whoever" breaks the least of these commandments and teaches other to break will be least in heaven and if we look at the very next verse v20 means not there.

Sometimes is helps to work backwards. At the coming of Jesus Christ did He those who practice lawlessness (without law) will be saved? He very ,much said the opposite. If He is saying depart from Me those who practice lawlessness it means we should keep His laws through faith and love John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 Rev 14:12

If we can't believe His words, mine will mean nothing. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree and all will get sorted out soon enough.

I believe His words. You believe that you can improve on the righteousness that God gives you.

 

[fhansen]

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

What does Paul mean by “set aside the grace of God?” It definitely has something to do with the law. Paul stated “If righteousness came through the law Christ died in vain.”


1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power. NKJV


As Paul states in the above everything is legal for those who are in Christ. Romans 7 God considers everyone in Jesus to have died with Him. Being dead means that we are not under the law as dead people cannot sin. Therefore, God will not impute sin to those in Jesus. We have liberty to sin.


Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." NKJV


Paul warns us about using our liberty as an opportunity to please our flesh. Then he cites that all the law is fulfilled by the OT law of “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Does this mean that we have to “Love our neighbor as our self” to be saved by Jesus? No!


Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

Our righteousness is apart from the law. That means that our righteousness has nothing to do with our doing any OT law.


Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV


God imputes righteousness apart from doing any works. The above scripture is a 2-edged sword. For those who do not work their faith is accounted for righteousness. It also means that if one is doing a work to be righteous, they do not believe in Jesus. If anyone believes in Jesus, then that belief in Jesus is their righteousness. How could they believe Jesus makes them righteous, if they are working to be righteous?

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV


Again, the above scripture is a two-edged sword. If anyone believes in Jesus, He is the end of the law for righteousness. That means if you believe in Jesus you do not get any righteousness by doing works of the law.


It also means if anyone is doing works to be righteous, they do not believe that Jesus makes them righteous. If Jesus made them righteous then why do they need to work to be righteous?


That is what Paul means by setting aside grace. If anyone does any work to be righteous, they are setting aside the grace of God. God gives us grace so we do not need to work for righteousness.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Some Galatians had been convinced they had to trust in circumcision. Circumcision has noting to do with righteousness.(It was a requirement for those in the first covenant) If they got circumcised, believing they needed to for salvation, they would set aside the grace of God. If anyone sets grace aside the only way left to be righteous is by doing the law. We know no one will be made righteous by the law because no one except Jesus could do the law without committing sin.

Then why did Paul tell us to “love our neighbor as our self” to be righteous?

Paul has just gone through several chapters explaining how faith in Jesus is so much better than being under the law, he is not going to now tell the Galatians to do the law, the law is one entire unit not separate parts. He is telling them not to use the liberty in Jesus to satisfy their lusts. We do not lose salvation if we die under discipline, which if we use our liberty to satisfy our lusts we will die under discipline.


Galatians 2:20(a) I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (b) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV


The answer to why Paul told us, to love our neighbor as ourselves, is in the above scriptures. Verse 20 b the life that Paul lived in the flesh he lived by faith in Jesus. That is the way all the sons of God live.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

By accepting discipline, we prove that we are sons of God. Verse 12 we should not live to satisfy the flesh. If we live to the flesh we will die physically. Any of the elect (remember David and Bathsheba) could fall into temptation and quit walking in the Spirit. If this happens Jesus will start discipline, ending in our physical death , if we do not repent. This is what Paul meant by the life he now lives he lives by faith in Jesus. Paul had faith that if he continued to obey Jesus' commands that he would accomplish everything God had planned for him to do. Romans 13:8 We are under the law of love. If we fulfill the law of love we will continue to live physically. If we stop fulfilling the law of love we will die and go to heaven under discipline. 1Corinthians 11:32 God disciplines us so we will not be judged by the world.

Setting aside grace would be to resist the work and life of the Holy Spirit in us. And that would mean that we would return to the flesh, to unrighteousness. The righteousness that is apart from the law, that the law and the prophets testify to, is real righteousness, wrought by grace.
“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

We must not set that aside:
“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe His words. You believe that you can improve on the righteousness that God gives you.

What about Christ’s words here?

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Rev 14:12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I believe the righteousness Christ gives those who abide in Him is good fruit, not bad fruit that leaves us as sinners (breaking God’s law) Paul can be difficult to understand and isolating his verses away from the context of the rest of the Bible I do not believe is a good idea 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Neogaia777]

Obedience done in your own strength decieves you, as it causes you to think you are now perfect, and don't any longer have any sin, but all you have to do to see that is false, is just take a close look at all of the people who think they have done it, for they most often are very, very much decieved, etc. But let your obedience be a true work of God, and you will be fine, etc. Some of the most evil people I know are the ones who think they have become perfect in their own strength, and I'm pretty sure God agrees with me. They would not be so very much judgemental towards those who are not yet where they are now at (or think they are now at) for one thing, etc. Only a truly enlightened person knows that this is always a very, very grave sin, and can cost you your salvation, etc. If you truly knew God, you would already know that you don't have the right (or level of knowledge) to be able to do that, etc. If you want to tell people the truth about sin, then tell them that sin can be a possible risk, etc, because anything beyond that, is a sin, and you have neither the right, or the level of knowledge that is required, to be able to do that, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

We set aside the grace of God (and become apostate) (like the Judizers in Jesus day) by no longer thinking we need it.

God Bless.

 

[fhansen]

We set aside the grace of God (and become apostate) (like the Judizers in Jesus day) by no longer thinking we need it.

God Bless.

Yes, pride/self-righteousness are opposed to God by their nature while humility is the key to truly drawing near to Him. The scary thing is that all evil is done in the name of some good, by someone pursuing a desire they perceive to be good, and that they have the right to pursue just because they desire it.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, pride/self-righteousness are opposed to God by their nature while humility is the key to truly drawing near to Him. The scary thing is that all evil is done in the name of some good, by someone pursuing a desire they perceive to be good, and that they have the right to pursue just because they desire it.

Maybe not all evil, but some of the worst ones probably. And, yes, a lot of people, especially nowadays, have a big, huge problem with calling a sin and sin nowadays, etc. There is a great deal of questioning going on about it nowadays, "Well, is it really?", some will say, but when consequences sometimes come for them some of the times and/or always, then they find out, don't they. No fear of God for anyone nowadays drives this mostly. Whereas if they would just simply agree with God about it (the sin) and they would stay humble about it always, even though they might still commit the sin sometimes always, or be guilty of it always, then maybe the consequences for it maybe need not come all of the time and always, etc. But it still always can be a risk, both in this life, and maybe also to your eternal salvation maybe sometimes, or in some cases, either way, etc. We'd like to not ever play around with any kind of sin at all always, but the problem is that all of us do all of the time and always, etc, unless you've convinced yourself that you don't anymore ever at all always, but I've talked about that already, etc.

God Bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Obedience done in your own strength decieves you, as it causes you to think you are now perfect, and don't any longer have any sin, but all you have to do to see that is false, is just take a close look at all of the people who think they have done it, for they most often are very, very much decieved, etc.

Agree, but what deceives us more is not allowing God to define sin which God's Law is what reveals sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and think we can live in our sins and be saved. Heb 10:26-30 when we need to confess and forsake them Pro 28:13

1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
You can see the rest of what God said His personal Testimony Exo 31:10 Exo 20:1-17

All of God's commandments are righteousness which is everlasting
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.
Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

While Jesus give us the strength to do so, its conditional on our love and cooperation and wiliness to live out what He asks and His righteousness

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[Neogaia777]

Agree, but what deceives us more is not allowing God to define sin which God's Law is what reveals sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and think we can live in our sins and be saved. Heb 10:26-30 when we need to confess and forsake them Pro 28:13

1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
You can see the rest of what God said His personal Testimony Exo 31:10 Exo 20:1-17

All of God's commandments are righteousness which is everlasting
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.
Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

While Jesus give us the strength to do so, its conditional on our love and cooperation and wiliness to live out what He asks and His righteousness

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Do you think any and all factors need to all always be fully considered in any true or any truly righteous or 100% truly just 100% completely fair just judgement of somebody?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you think any and all factors need to all always be fully considered in any true or any truly righteous or 100% truly just 100% completely fair just judgement of somebody?

I believe God will consider everything in His righteous Judgement, He tells us He will

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all.
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.


I believe God is longsuffering and is waiting for everyone to make their decisions and nothing more will sway them, we are set in our beliefs. The Bible makes the correlation of disobedience, rebellion and unbelief as all being the same Heb 3:7-19 many believers will say Lord Lord at His Second Coming and Jesus says


Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Many have faith in Jesus but we need both the faith in Him and of Him. How did Jesus live and and what did He teach- that is His faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Right now Today, He is calling us out of our rebellion, sin and disobedience which is unbelief if we hear His voice

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

And I believe Jesus will be coming in the Clouds soon and once He does all of our decisions have been sealed

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

I do not believe everyone would be happy in heaven where there is no sin. Some people like their sins more than they love Jesus to give Him our sins so He can help us overcome and forsake them. John 3:19-21 Pro 28:13 its why I believe His Judgement will be one of love. His will in heaven is the same for us now. So if we are rebelling against God's holy law now, we would probably not be happy in heaven. If everyone was keeping the Ten Commandments they way Jesus showed they were meant to be kept starting, from the heart Mat 5:19-30- there would be no more sin. No more murder, no more stealing, no more adultery, only worshipping the One True God, yet so many people rebel against God's own Testimony and Holy Law. Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 Exo 20:1-17 what all man will be Judged by James 2:11-12 Rev 11:18-19 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe God will consider everything in His righteous Judgement, He tells us He will

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all.
Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.


I believe God is longsuffering and is waiting for everyone to make their decisions and nothing more will sway them, we are set in our beliefs. The Bible makes the correlation in disobedience, rebellion and unbelief as all being the same Heb 3:7-19 many believers will say Lord Lord at His Second Coming and Jesus says


Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Many have faith in Jesus but we need both the faith in Him and of Him. How did Jesus live and and what did He teach- that is His faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Right now Today, He is calling us out of our rebellion, sin and disobedience which is unbelief if we hear His voice

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

And I believe Jesus will be coming in the Clouds soon and once He does all of our decisions have been sealed

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

I do not believe everyone would be happy in heaven where there is no sin. Some people like their sins more than they love Jesus to give Him our sins so He can help us overcome and forsake them. John 3:19-21 Pro 28:13 its why I believe His Judgement will be one of love. His will in heaven is the same for us now. So if we are rebelling against God's holy law now, we would probably not be happy in heaven. If everyone was keeping the Ten Commandments they way Jesus showed they were meant to be kept starting, from the heart Mat 5:19-30- there would be no more sin. No more murder, no more stealing, no more adultery, only worshipping the One True God, yet so many people rebel against God's own Testimony and Holy Law. Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 Exo 20:1-17 what all man will be Judged by James 2:11-12 Rev 11:18-19 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15

We'll just have to see how everything goes at the very final/second resurrection/judgement I guess, but I think there are going to be a lot of people there who just simply couldn't help it when it came to some of their sinning(s) though, etc. I don't think that God made it possible for everyone to be able to obey in the exact same kind of way that some others can, but I guess we'll find out, etc.

God Bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We'll just have to see how everything goes at the very final/second resurrection/judgement I guess, but I think there are going to be a lot of people there who just simply couldn't help it when it came to some of their sinning(s) though, etc. I don't think that God made it possible for everyone to be able to obey in the exact same kind of way that some others can, but I guess we'll find out, etc.

God Bless.

Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [a]Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

There is no sin too great for God, but sadly many people love their sins more than they love Jesus to bring Him our sins and ask for His help in forsaking them.

Pro 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

There is no sin too great for our God, just the ones we won't give to Him.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

What does Paul mean by “set aside the grace of God?” It definitely has something to do with the law. Paul stated “If righteousness came through the law Christ died in vain.”


1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power. NKJV


As Paul states in the above everything is legal for those who are in Christ. Romans 7 God considers everyone in Jesus to have died with Him. Being dead means that we are not under the law as dead people cannot sin. Therefore, God will not impute sin to those in Jesus. We have liberty to sin.


Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." NKJV


Paul warns us about using our liberty as an opportunity to please our flesh. Then he cites that all the law is fulfilled by the OT law of “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Does this mean that we have to “Love our neighbor as our self” to be saved by Jesus? No!


Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

Our righteousness is apart from the law. That means that our righteousness has nothing to do with our doing any OT law.


Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV


God imputes righteousness apart from doing any works. The above scripture is a 2-edged sword. For those who do not work their faith is accounted for righteousness. It also means that if one is doing a work to be righteous, they do not believe in Jesus. If anyone believes in Jesus, then that belief in Jesus is their righteousness. How could they believe Jesus makes them righteous, if they are working to be righteous?

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV


Again, the above scripture is a two-edged sword. If anyone believes in Jesus, He is the end of the law for righteousness. That means if you believe in Jesus you do not get any righteousness by doing works of the law.


It also means if anyone is doing works to be righteous, they do not believe that Jesus makes them righteous. If Jesus made them righteous then why do they need to work to be righteous?


That is what Paul means by setting aside grace. If anyone does any work to be righteous, they are setting aside the grace of God. God gives us grace so we do not need to work for righteousness.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Some Galatians had been convinced they had to trust in circumcision. Circumcision has noting to do with righteousness.(It was a requirement for those in the first covenant) If they got circumcised, believing they needed to for salvation, they would set aside the grace of God. If anyone sets grace aside the only way left to be righteous is by doing the law. We know no one will be made righteous by the law because no one except Jesus could do the law without committing sin.

Then why did Paul tell us to “love our neighbor as our self” to be righteous?

Paul has just gone through several chapters explaining how faith in Jesus is so much better than being under the law, he is not going to now tell the Galatians to do the law, the law is one entire unit not separate parts. He is telling them not to use the liberty in Jesus to satisfy their lusts. We do not lose salvation if we die under discipline, which if we use our liberty to satisfy our lusts we will die under discipline.


Galatians 2:20(a) I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (b) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV


The answer to why Paul told us, to love our neighbor as ourselves, is in the above scriptures. Verse 20 b the life that Paul lived in the flesh he lived by faith in Jesus. That is the way all the sons of God live.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

By accepting discipline, we prove that we are sons of God. Verse 12 we should not live to satisfy the flesh. If we live to the flesh we will die physically. Any of the elect (remember David and Bathsheba) could fall into temptation and quit walking in the Spirit. If this happens Jesus will start discipline, ending in our physical death , if we do not repent. This is what Paul meant by the life he now lives he lives by faith in Jesus. Paul had faith that if he continued to obey Jesus' commands that he would accomplish everything God had planned for him to do. Romans 13:8 We are under the law of love. If we fulfill the law of love we will continue to live physically. If we stop fulfilling the law of love we will die and go to heaven under discipline. 1Corinthians 11:32 God disciplines us so we will not be judged by the world.

I appreciate your scriptural gymnastics on the above

I might suggest that doing righteousness one way or the other is not and should not be a problem in any case of internal gymnastics

 

[fli]

I appreciate your scriptural gymnastics on the above

I might suggest that doing righteousness one way or the other is not and should not be a problem in any case of internal gymnastics

BlievetOarKnot

By scriptural gymnastics, I take it to mean you think that I am changing the meaning to suit my purpose.

Galatians 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

The reason that I do not cite all the scripture is it makes the posts too long. I hope that the reader will read it in their bible.

Paul said that he would become a transgressor if he rebuilt the things he destroyed. To be a transgressor one must be under the law. What did Paul destroy?

Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. NKJV

Paul, warning the Philippians about being circumcised, said he had destroyed his reliance on his being a law-abiding Pharisee, to be found in Christ.

Those in Christ do not have a righteousness of their own. If Paul went back to relying on his obeying the law for righteousness, he would be claiming a righteousness of his own. Why do those in Christ not have a righteousness of their own? Because no one can be more righteous than Jesus. If you claim any righteousness of your own your saying Jesus only made you partially righteous. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness and you have His righteousness.

We need to do things of the law to keep living physically. We do them because we love Jesus and not for righteousness as some claim. I have said all along that we should do things in the law, included in the law is the commandments, because we love God.

We have to keep some commandments that are not the old commandments. The old commandments needed to be kept under the old covenant to be righteous. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, that means there is no more righteousness beyond His.. Romans 3: 21-22 if we believe in Jesus, we have the righteousness of Jesus.

Those are the commandments we are to keep. They do not make us more righteousness, the first keeps us in Christ. By doing the second we are growing our love and what we do to other Christians, we are doing to Jesus.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. NKJV

Apostle John, the disciple Jesus loved, said we know Him if we keep His commandments. In the same epistle John told us the commandments we are to keep. He went on to say the love of God is perfected in us if we keep His word. First, I will discuss the commandments we must keep. then I will discuss what it means to have the love of God perfected in us.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

There are 2 commandments in the above. The first is to believe in Jesus. If we could not keep believing, John would not warn us to keep the believing in Him. Later in this epistle, at verse 5:13, John tells us that he wrote these things so we may continue to believe in Jesus. If all believers continue to believe in Jesus, John would be telling us we know Him because we keep His commandments.


There are 2 ways to quit believing in Jesus. The first way is to claim Jesus just partiality saved you and you need to do something have some righteousness of your own. That is setting aside grace because grace means you get something you do not deserve. If you work for righteousness you set His grace aside and try to do things to be righteous. Those folks do things of the law out of fear they will not make it to heaven. They are setting aside Jesus' work and replacing it with their work.

The second way to quit believing in Jesus is to despise God's discipline. If someone despises God's discipline they would do so because they love the world more than they love Jesus. If that is the case they will quit believing in Jesus because the things the world gives them makes them happy and Jesus doesn't. No one gives up what they love for something they do not love. I don't see this as setting grace aside. I would say this is despising or rejecting God's gift.

John 13:34 is the second commandment we must keep. As stated in the gospel of John we must love the brethren with the love that Jesus had for us. That is Godly love. We do not have Godly love of ourselves. We have Jesus in the heart of the new spiritual man in us. With Him in our heart He gives us grace, if we love the brethren as best we can with humanly love, to fulfill what our love lacks. If we don't try, to love the brethren, He will convict us that we need to. With His grace are we able to keep the new second commandment while alive. When we get to heaven then we can love as Jesus loved us as the fleshly man is dead. With the flesh dead. God's love is perfected in us.

Now back to 1John 2: 5 whoever keeps His word the love of God is perfected in Him. Whoever thinks that His word we must keep is all the commandments and laws in the bible is wrong. The word we must keep, to keep living in the flesh, is that which Jesus tells us to do to stay in the Spirit. As I stated above when we get to heaven only then can we love with the love of Jesus on our own. If we die, in the Spirit by keeping His word, the love of Jesus is perfected in us.

Because the spiritual man has the love of Jesus everyone in heaven will love each other with Godly love. Without God's love in everyone heaven would be another earth with arguments, fighting and wars.

If I have any typos, it's because I have macular degeneration in both eyes. My right is useful for keeping me from bumping into objects. The left let's me read and do other things. I think that because together they do not “see” the same things it makes me very light headed.

 

[fhansen]

In the Romans scripture I cited Paul was referring to the entire law.

In Galatians 2 Paul is referring to circumcision. If you believe in Jesus, we have His righteousness. We do not have to do any work to be righteous. By putting their faith in circumcision, they did not believe Jesus made them righteous they would be relying on their work of circumcision.




Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! NKJV

Job was not an Israeli, yet he believed in his redeemer. He did not have the law.

Job 31:23 For destruction from God is a terror to me, And because of His magnificence I cannot endure. 24 "If I have made gold my hope,
Or said to fine gold, 'You are my confidence'; NKJV

Job believed God would provide a redeemer for him. Read the first chapter of Romans and it explains how Job could have known. There was a local pastor that went through the Zodiac and explained how it spelled out God's plan of salvation. each sign had 3 decants and told different parts of the story.

See above


Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

If you believe in Jesus, we have His righteousness imputed to us


I believe His words. You believe that you can improve on the righteousness that God gives you.

You’re failing to grasp a basic part of the gospel. Faith is how we get righteousness, not how we avoid the need for getting it.