Faith without works explained

[fhansen]

But in no way does ones many choices in life to indulge the lusts of the old man cause the new man to lose his intrinsic righteousness and holiness.

Nonsense, not to mention unscriptural. As John tells us.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Might as well throw out Is 5:20 as well. God is always there with His grace, wanting none to perish (2 Pet 3:9). But some will. Some will refuse to come, or some will turn back away later. Again, He's not into automatons, but all about fostering in us a willing spirit, and an increasingly willing one. That's what a good parent does, guiding his children into responsibility for themselves rather than just doing it all for them where nothing of any higher value or character results. He wants us to use the freedom He gave us rightly instead of wrongly as Adam did, even as his help, His grace, is essential in that endeavor.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, it's both.

There is no such thing as merging grace and works. Either it is a free gift, or it is earned. It can hardly be both.

 

[fhansen]

There is no such thing as merging grace and works. Either it is a free gift, or it is earned. It can hardly be both.

The works God desires of us such as those prepared for us in advance, Ephesians 2:10, are works of grace and most definitely not works of the law.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Nonsense, not to mention unscriptural. As John tells us.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Might as well throw out Is 5:20 as well. God is always there with His grace, wanting none to perish (2 Pet 3:9). But some will. Some will refuse to come, or some will turn back away later. Again, He's not into automatons, but all about fostering in us a willing spirit, and an increasingly willing one. That's what a good parent does, guiding his children into responsibility for themselves rather than just doing it all for them where nothing of any higher value or character results. He wants us to use the freedom He gave us rightly instead of wrongly as Adam did, even as his help, His grace, is essential in that endeavor.

You have rejected the idea that John is speaking of the spiritual nature that is created when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart. Because of this, you reject his dogmatic stance on sin being impossible for the new creature who is born from out of God and in whom His Seed remains. And you replace this with some sort of relativistic statement that sin in small degrees is possible but sin in large degree is impossible. Well, not exactly, because you even say sin in large degree is possible... then the person is kicked out of the kingdom.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The works God desires of us such as those prepared for us in advance, Ephesians 2:10, are works of grace and most definitely not works of the law.

It is a free gift that is taken away from those who prove themselves unworthy of it? So it's a conditional free gift?

 

[fhansen]

It is a free gift that is taken away from those who prove themselves unworthy of it? So it's a conditional free gift?

Of course. Any gift can be rejected. We don't work for the gift, we only turn to God in faith. But we can fail to care after tasting of the heavenly gift: we can fail to care about Him, and return to the flesh.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Nonsense, not to mention unscriptural. As John tells us.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Might as well throw out Is 5:20 as well. God is always there with His grace, wanting none to perish (2 Pet 3:9). But some will. Some will refuse to come, or some will turn back away later. Again, He's not into automatons, but all about fostering in us a willing spirit, and an increasingly willing one. That's what a good parent does, guiding his children into responsibility for themselves rather than just doing it all for them where nothing of any higher value or character results. He wants us to use the freedom He gave us rightly instead of wrongly as Adam did, even as his help, His grace, is essential in that endeavor.

You like quoting this verse...

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)​

It says that 1) the person who has been born of God "does not sin" because "His seed remains in Him", and 2) that "he cannot sin" because "he has been born of God".

From your point of view, what does 1 John 3:9 say is impossible for a person who has been born of God?

 

[fhansen]

You like quoting this verse...

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)​

It says that 1) the person who has been born of God "does not sin" because "His seed remains in Him", and 2) that "he cannot sin" because "he has been born of God".

From your point of view, what does 1 John 3:9 say is impossible for a person who has been born of God?

Well, I quote a lot of verses more than those, but chose those here because you wish to reduce good fruit to nothing more than having faith. Anyway, it appears you already answered the question; there aren't too many options there.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Well, I quote a lot of verses more than those, but chose those here because you wish to reduce good fruit to nothing more than having faith. Anyway, it appears you already answered the question; there aren't too many options there.

I chose 1 John 3:9 because it says sinning is impossible for he who has been born of God. But you do not say that. In fact, you say the opposite. You say it is possible for those who have been born of God to choose sin over the God who gave birth to them.

The question is not to embarras you. It is to give you an opportunity to think about the holiness and righteousness of the new man and the corruption of the old man. If John is not talking about the sinlesness of the new man, what is he talking about?

 

[fhansen]

I chose 1 John 3:9 because it says sinning is impossible for he who has been born of God. But you do not say that. In fact, you say the opposite. You say it is possible for those who have been born of God to choose sin over the God who gave birth to them.

The question is not to embarras you. It is to give you an opportunity to think about the holiness and righteousness of the new man and the corruption of the old man. If John is not talking about the sinlesness of the new man, what is he talking about?

Thank you for not meaning to embarrass me. So, are you saying that a person who becomes born again never sins, becomes perfectly sinless, such that this should be quite observable in their lives, for instance?

And, BTW, you wouldn't be embarrassing only me but also the historic Christian Church based on it's understanding.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So, are you saying that a person who becomes born again never sins, becomes perfectly sinless, such that this should be quite observable in their lives, for instance?

No. I am telling you that John is speaking of the new man, a spiritual creature, who is one spirit with Christ, and has been "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). This new creature who was created by God cannot sin. And my question to you is this -- if John is speaking of the whole man and not the inner man, then what does it mean that we cannot sin? It would mean what you said above, that we are sinlessly perfect. But it should be obvious that is not the case.

Thank you for not meaning to embarrass me.
And, BTW, you wouldn't be embarrassing only me but also the historic Christian Church based on it's understanding.

Ok, then what does the historic church think 1 John 3:9 says is impossible for the one born of God? Is it impossible for him to sin? Is it impossible for him to go in sinning? Is it impossible for him to continue in sin? What does being born of God make impossible?

 

[fhansen]

No. I am telling you that John is speaking of the new man, a spiritual creature, who is one spirit with Christ, and has been "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). This new creature who was created by God cannot sin. And my question to you is this -- if John is speaking of the whole man and not the inner man, then what does it mean that we cannot sin? It would mean what you said above, that we are sinlessly perfect. But it should be obvious that is not the case.

Ok, that’s what I figured you probably meant. And I’m telling you that I don’t know if John would laugh or cry harder after hearing that anyone treated his 1st letter as if he were addressing two people at once. He’s taking great pains to make it clear that what you do matters greatly, eternally. Jesus came to defeat the devil. It’s a complete cop-out to reference the other guy: “He made me do it.” Jesus came to heal you, and take away your sins, to restore justice, not to provide some means by which we can say I’m holy while not really being holy, to ignore justice, to escape the penalty of any and all injustice after our injustice is forgiven. That would be to mock Him, to crucify Him all over again.

Ok, then what does the historic church think 1 John 3:9 says is impossible for the one born of God? Is it impossible for him to sin? Is it impossible for him to go in sinning? Is it impossible for him to continue in sin? What does being born of God make impossible?

If you really want to know the only honest and workable way to face and address this matter, you can learn something of how the church has dealt with it here, post #669:

SALVATION

The highlighted portion isn’t a mark because it’s not something that is noticeable. It is noticeable. I can see whether I'm forgiven or not. The fact that you can't see it makes no difference. Same is true of the new man that Christ created in me when He came to live in my heart. I can see it...

www.christianforums.com

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok, that’s what I figured you probably meant. And I’m telling you that I don’t know if John would laugh or cry harder after hearing that anyone treated his 1st letter as if he were addressing two people at once. He’s taking great pains to make it clear that what you do matters greatly, eternally. Jesus came to defeat the devil. It’s a complete cop-out to reference the other guy: “He made me do it.” Jesus came to heal you, and take away your sins, to restore justice, not to provide some means by which we can say I’m holy while not really being holy, to ignore justice, to escape the penalty of any and all injustice after our injustice is forgiven. That would be to mock Him, to crucify Him all over again.

If you really want to know the only honest and workable way to face and address this matter, you can learn something of how the church has dealt with it here, post #669:

SALVATION

The highlighted portion isn’t a mark because it’s not something that is noticeable. It is noticeable. I can see whether I'm forgiven or not. The fact that you can't see it makes no difference. Same is true of the new man that Christ created in me when He came to live in my heart. I can see it...

www.christianforums.com

This is what you said over there...

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3: 7-9​

​

So the church has taught that some sins are so intrinsically at odds with and opposed to God and His nature, opposed to love of God and neighbor while destroying love in us, that, if persisted in, lead to death. They constitute a choice for evil to the extent that they are committed deliberately and with full knowledge. We cannot and should not expect those sins to keep us in a reconciled state with God; we'd be mocking Him (Gal 6:7). So they distinguished between those sins and lighter sins that tend towards distancing us from God but do not, in themselves, constitute a turning away from Him where a complete change of heart would be necessitated. To me that's the only honest way I've seen of understanding and dealing with the matter of sin.​

But I did not see where you addressed what was impossible for a person born of God. In the NIV version of 1 John 3:9, which you quoted above, it says that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" and "they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God". In your discussion of it you talked about the difference between venial sins and grave sins. But you never said grave sins were impossible for someone born of God. Maybe you are saying they are not impossible, but John is saying that you can't stay born of God if you do it? I don't know.

 

[fhansen]

But I did not see where you addressed what was impossible for a person born of God. In the NIV version of 1 John 3:9, which you quoted above, it says that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" and "they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God". In your discussion of it you talked about the difference between venial sins and grave sins. But you never said grave sins were impossible for someone bor

That's a good point, and I meant to address it directly. Union with God and the love it entails excludes sin by its nature-and that's what John means to emphasize. Are we "perfected in love" (1 John 4:18) in this life? The church says no, and I'm not sure if John, himself, thought that was totally, as in exhaustively, possible or not.

But that basic distinction, of sin meaning separation between man and God, must be preserved.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Union with God and the love it entails excludes sin by its nature

OK, great! We have one point of agreement. Perhaps later we can expand on this.

 

[fhansen]

OK, great! We have one point of agreement. Perhaps later we can expand on this.

Okk...but I guarantee it won't be resolved with the "pretend holy guy" scenario .

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Okk...but I guarantee it won't be resolved with the "pretend holy guy" scenario .

How gracious of you. I was thinking more along the lines that we agree on the concept itself and on the fact that it does not play out fully in the flesh in this life, but we disagree on whether the new man/inward man/spiritual man is already united with God, one with Him in spirit, and free of sin by his very nature as a spiritual being.

 

[fhansen]

How gracious of you. I was thinking more along the lines that we agree on the concept itself and on the fact that it does not play out fully in the flesh in this life, but we disagree on whether the new man/inward man/spiritual man is already united with God, one with Him in spirit, and free of sin by his very nature as a spiritual being.

Ok, and that's pretty much what I said anyway. And I wasn't trying to be particularly gracious, although once in a while I have my moments....

Yes, union with God and the love implied in that union, is our salvation. And, yes, if we agree on that, that's only a good thing.

 

[AbbaLove]

No. I am telling you(fh) that John is speaking of the new man, a spiritual creature, who is one spirit with Christ, and has been "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). This new creature who was created by God cannot sin.

Amen and Amein! (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5)
"Except a man be washed of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit."
​

Continuationism versus Cessationism is a significant theological dispute within Christendom as whether or not all nine Spiritual Gifts are still active and available to His followers (elect) today or whether their operation ceased after the Apostolic Age (1st century or soon thereafter).

Okk...but I guarantee it won't be resolved with the "pretend holy guy" scenario .

Some would contend that is a typical attitude of what some refer to as "Cessationism." One who believes at least 2 of the 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:7-11) ceased after the "Apostolic Age." Cessationists prefer instead to refer to the nine Fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and exclude speaking in an unknown heavenly tongue and the interpretation of an unknown tongue as a legitimate "Gift" of the Holy Spirit that's still available for today's born again. Spirit-filled Christian. Cesationism will define the other 7 (supernatural) "Gifts" of the Holy Spirit according to their doctrinal understanding without the inspired action (Gifting, intercessory prayer , laying on of hands) of a born again Spirit-filled new creation in Christ as being a necessary action of "good works."

Ephesians 2:10​

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, that the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs and wonders that glorify GOD (not man) ... Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist? | GotQuestions.org

Cessationist theology is seen by some as influenced by more by the the enemy than by scripture with "hyper-grace" now covering even on-going future sins of a born again new creation in Christ Jesus.

John 14:12​

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.​

Is Jesus talking only to His disciples. Cessationists generally interpret verses like this as applying only to the Apostolic Age, and not applicable to today's Spirit-filled (born again) new creation in Christ. Instead it's not uncommon for a cessationist (anti-works) to dismiss the following Words of the Lord as no longer a possibility in today's Christian theology.

"but I guarantee it won't be resolved with the pretend "holy guy scenario"​

And so such logic is unable to grasp/rationalize the Words of Jesus when He says, "Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen to you"

Shabbat Shalom​