Faith without works explained

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And yet if they have no good fruit, then the veracity of their claim is in question. Like a good parent God wants us to be increasingly responbile for our actions and our relationship with Him, even as all good things come only from Him to begin with. And so Jesus' burden is light, not non-existent. We make effort, we strive, but yoked with Him now, no longer apart from Him.

The good fruit of faith in Christ is not working for one's salvation. Not working is the evidence that the trust in Christ is real. It is not enough to profess faith in Christ, one must also cease from his labors.

What's the point of examining one's fruits (actions) if looking at them does not reveal their true beliefs? Do we not expect those who have ceased from their works to have already entered His rest? Or do we expect those who are working hard to gain or maintain their salvation to have already entered that rest? It seems obvious that the person resting has ceased from His works, not the one working.

But maybe rest is not important? It is when we're talking about resing all our hope in Christ.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Here is a good example... If a person says they have rested all their weight on Christ, but they are still working their hardest to maintain their salvation, then the veracity of their claim is in question.

How so? Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself said that we must " stay the course ". He said this for a reason. What is that reason?
The flesh, we are still in it. We can not judge someone who continually fights the flesh in order to stay in His Spirit.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

How so? Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself said that we must " stay the course ". He said this for a reason. What is that reason?

I don't recall the "stay the course" sermon. What exactly are you referring to?

The flesh, we are still in it.

Yes, the flesh is like a suit of clothes. But we will shed it and get a spiritual body soon enough. In the meantime, His grace must be sufficient for us.

We can not judge someone who continually fights the flesh in order to stay in His Spirit.

There is never a valid excuse to judge other people's salvation. But if we are inclined to look at a person's struggle against sin with a judgemental eye, we would likely find plenty of sins we could judge him on. But if we said, "At leas he's trying his best", that would be an error also. Neither success at resisting sin nor putting in a good effort to fight against sin is the gold standard. Resting all one's home in Christ is the gold standard. And there is no replacement.

When we look at James' examples of faith plus works - feeding the hungry instead of saying "be filled", Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice, and Rahab hiding the spies from the authorities, none of these examples are about salvation. In other words, feeding the hungry, or killing your son, nor lying to the authorities is not God's plan for salvation. But they are all examples of faith and works working together. If you believe something, then your actions are consistent. As it relates to salvation, trusting Christ for the forgiveness of all your sins is the only way to be saved. If a person trusts in Christ for his salvation, he does not have any need to work hard to maintain it. Faith in Christ is dead unless it is accompanied by ceasing from one's own works.

 

[fhansen]

I don't recall the "stay the course" sermon. What exactly are you referring to?

Yes, the flesh is like a suit of clothes. But we will shed it and get a spiritual body soon enough. In the meantime, His grace must be sufficient for us.

There is never a valid excuse to judge other people's salvation. But if we are inclined to look at a person's struggle against sin with a judgemental eye, we would likely find plenty of sins we could judge him on. But if we said, "At leas he's trying his best", that would be an error also. Neither success at resisting sin nor putting in a good effort to fight against sin is the gold standard. Resting all one's home in Christ is the gold standard. And there is no replacement.

When we look at James' examples of faith plus works - feeding the hungry instead of saying "be filled", Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice, and Rahab hiding the spies from the authorities, none of these examples are about salvation. In other words, feeding the hungry, or killing your son, nor lying to the authorities is not God's plan for salvation. But they are all examples of faith and works working together. If you believe something, then your actions are consistent. As it relates to salvation, trusting Christ for the forgiveness of all your sins is the only way to be saved. If a person trusts in Christ for his salvation, he does not have any need to work hard to maintain it. Faith in Christ is dead unless it is accompanied by ceasing from one's own works.

And yet Hebrews:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

And Paul:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

And John:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

We simply cannot separate salvation from the obligation for man to be holy and act accordingly. For example, this hasn't changed a bit under the new covenant:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

 

[fhansen]

The good fruit of faith in Christ is not working for one's salvation. Not working is the evidence that the trust in Christ is real. It is not enough to profess faith in Christ, one must also cease from his labors.

What's the point of examining one's fruits (actions) if looking at them does not reveal their true beliefs? Do we not expect those who have ceased from their works to have already entered His rest? Or do we expect those who are working hard to gain or maintain their salvation to have already entered that rest? It seems obvious that the person resting has ceased from His works, not the one working.

But maybe rest is not important? It is when we're talking about resing all our hope in Christ.

Paul certainly didn't rest from the work God had for him. Neither did Jesus, Paul's model and ours. We rest from works of the law, not from works of true obedience, works born of the Spirit.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I don't recall the "stay the course" sermon. What exactly are you referring to?

The key passage to " stay on course "is Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

 

[Yarddog]

I tried to multi quote fhanson and Yarddog with the same question.


If you are saying that we need a work to get into heaven, you are wrong.

We will have works but they are works of the Holy Spirit. Man's works mean nothing

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Paul certainly didn't rest from the work God had for him. Neither did Jesus, Paul's model and ours. We rest from works of the law, not from works of true obedience, works born of the Spirit.

The Lord knows who is resting from their works and who is working hard to gain His approval because He can discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. But I only know about myself. As for others, I echo this instruction from Hebrews...

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:11–13)​

 

[fhansen]

The Lord knows who is resting from their works and who is working hard to gain His approval because He can discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. But I only know about myself. As for others, I echo this instruction from Hebrews...

Yes, of course the Lord knows. There is work that is done without desire for approval or for proving or demonstrating one's rigtheousness but only for the reason that it needs to be done. And there's no boasting in that. It's ok, and even imperative, that a Christian does the "right thing". The wicked and lazy servant who buried his talents or gold in Matt 25 was booted from the kingdom.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And yet Hebrews:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

And Paul:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

And John:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:9-10

We simply cannot separate salvation from the obligation for man to be holy and act accordingly. For example, this hasn't changed a bit under the new covenant:
"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

It seems we have gone down down this road together on several other occasions without resolution. We do not agree on the scope of holiness that God requires. I think a person needs to be truly righteous and holy to see the Lord, but you think a person does not need to be perfect, he just neeeds to be good enough. I think true righteousness and holiness exists in the heart of the born again believer, satisfying the law's requirements for righteousness and holiness. But you see this as "fake righteousness".

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes, of course the Lord knows.

We agree that the Lord knows who is resting and who is working.

There is work that is done without desire for approval or for proving or demonstrating one's rigtheousness but only for the reason that it needs to be done. And there's no boasting in that. It's ok, and even imperative, that a Christian does the "right thing". The wicked and lazy servant who buried his talents or gold in Matt 25 was booted from the kingdom.

Let's break this down. There is some work that needs to be done. It is imperative that it be done. There are eternal negative consequences if the work is not performed. Eternal life is at the end of the road if the work is performed correctly, on time, and without improper motives. Is this not the classic "carrot and stick" story? How can a person avoid thinking that he gained eternal life by doing the right thing when he knows he will be booted out of the kingdom if he doesn't?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The key passage to " stay on course "is Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

I understand Jesus to be the narrow gate. But you see it as good works?

 

[fhansen]

It seems we have gone down down this road together on several other occasions without resolution. We do not agree on the scope of holiness that God requires. I think a person needs to be truly righteous and holy to see the Lord, but you think a person does not need to be perfect, he just neeeds to be good enough. I think true righteousness and holiness exists in the heart of the born again believer, satisfying the law's requirements for righteousness and holiness. But you see this as "fake righteousness".

Yes, he needs to be "good enough" in this life, according to God's wisdom who knows and judges by the heart; not everyone is given the same amount of gifts and opportunity but all are expected to give a return (Matt 25:14-30), with more demanded of those given more (Luke 12:48). We love because we've experienced God's love ourselves, or we're not even His. And love, simply, overcomes sin and produces good fruit by its nature.

We must be on that path in any case, the "journey to perfection" as it's been called rather than just sitting by the wayside waiting to die and enter heaven. Otherwise, any degree or amount of sin could never distance us from God, which is absurd. In the next life, when we meet "face to face", God will put the finishing touches on us, 'perfecting us in love' to put it best.

 

[fhansen]

I understand Jesus to be the narrow gate. But you see it as good works?

Apart from Jesus we can do no authentically good works. With Him the righteous requirements of the law can be met in us (Rom 8:4). That's the primary difference between the old and new covenants, being with vs being apart from God, being engrafted into the Vine or not.

 

[fhansen]

Let's break this down. There is some work that needs to be done. It is imperative that it be done. There are eternal negative consequences if the work is not performed. Eternal life is at the end of the road if the work is performed correctly, on time, and without improper motives. Is this not the classic "carrot and stick" story? How can a person avoid thinking that he gained eternal life by doing the right thing when he knows he will be booted out of the kingdom if he doesn't?

You're making it bad to simply know of our obligation, the part we play. The bible wouldn't even be necesasry if not for that need. To put it another way: love is both a supernatural gift, and a human choice, to accept, embrace, and express that gift. Man's most basic obligation is to love, as God does- and if Adam had been capable of that love yet in Eden, his obedience would've flowed of its own accord. Here's a related example of the necessity to reciprocate with the love we've been shown;
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

 

[fhansen]

I think true righteousness and holiness exists in the heart of the born again believer, satisfying the law's requirements for righteousness and holiness. But you see this as "fake righteousness".

I see that as pretend righteousness unless it means righteousness born of love with fruit that naturally follows from that.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You're making it bad to simply know of our obligation, the part we play. The bible wouldn't even be necessary if not for that need. To put it another way: love is both a supernatural gift, and a human choice, to accept, embrace, and express that gift. Man's most basic obligation is to love, as God does- and if Adam had been capable of that love yet in Eden, his obedience would've flowed of its own accord. Here's a related example of the necessity to reciprocate with the love we've been shown;
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

There are two ways to eternal life. One is through being good. Unfortunately, that path is closed to all people. The other is through being forgiven for not being good. Fortunately, that path is open to all. The law speaks to the first path. The cross speaks to the second path.

I take the second path, as described below...

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” (Ro 4:5–8)​

Through a painful process God led me out of the first path into the second, and in the process opened my understanding to a great many related truths. Under no circumstances will I return to the first path and consider my salvation to be dependent on how good a person I am. On the contrary, I will continue the mission He has given me to help fellow Christians who have chosen the first path find their way out of it.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I see that as pretend righteousness unless it means righteousness born of love with fruit that naturally follows from that.

Something happens when the new man is "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). It can't be argued that the "true righteousness and holiness" is external. It must be intrinsic righteousness and holiness -- the kind of righteousness and holiness that cannot be corrupted by sin.

In terms of external righteousness and holiness, it is nothing more than letting what exists inside shine forth to the outside. Doing so is a choice. That is why Ephesians 4:24 says to "put on" the new man. We are to consider ourselves as new creatures, one spirit with Christ, and live out the desires that He put in us when He came to live in our hearts. Then, and only then, does our light shine.

But we are not ignorant of the continued existance of the old man. Not walking in his evil desires in also a choice. That is why putting on the new man is always contrasted in Scripture with putting off the old man. Saying this another way, Paul explained that walking in the Spirit is the only way to deny the flesh what it wants.

But in no way does ones many choices in life to indulge the lusts of the old man cause the new man to lose his intrinsic righteousness and holiness. On the contrary, God, as a loving father, always corrects His children when they go astray. He never stops correcting them until they turn. At no point does He take His Spirit from them, return them to devil, and cast them out of His kingdom. We perhaps see this with corrupt fathers on earth, but this is not modeled after God.

So, in a way, I agree with what you said that physical righteousness naturally follows intrinsic righteousness (when we put off the old man and put on the new man and walk in the Spirit).

 

[fhansen]

There are two ways to eternal life. One is through being good. Unfortunately, that path is closed to all people. The other is through being forgiven for not being good.

No, it's both. Turning to God is a turning away from sin and the world while knowing our sins are forgiven. I returned to Christianity when I realized that my efforts at being good, based on the law or anything else, were futile, apart from Him. That realization came when I read this new covenant prophecy:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

God can and will do what the law and myself could never do. The new covenant is first and foremost about becoming God's people-as we comne to know Him:
"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:34

Therefore:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Again, the new covenant is all about union with God. By coming to know Him we come to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him-along with neighbor. And that love will overcome sin and fulfill the law, by its nature. That's why Jesus came. When we see Him, we see the Father; we know God.

 

[fhansen]

In terms of external righteousness and holiness, it is nothing more than letting what exists inside shine forth to the outside. Doing so is a choice.

Good, and it's a choice that must be made, daily as we pick uop our cross and follow. Righteousness is not merely forensically declared as some say, and the old man cannot hold sway over the new, or we're not His according to the 1st letter of John, for one.