WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

[David Lamb]

St. Paul frequently asked his followers to pray for him. Why is that different from asking the Blessed Virgin to pray for us? "Oh, but she's dead". So? Absent from the body, present with the Lord, right? Unless you're into the "soul sleep" thing, which I am not. Plus, nowhere in Scripture does it say the BVM died. She may well have been assumed into Heaven like others before her..

The difference is that there are plenty of examples in the bible of Christians on earth praying for others Christians. There are no examples in the bible of Christians asking Christians who have gone to heaven to pray for them. As for Mary being assumed, there are plenty of people in the bible whose deaths are not mentioned - Joseph (the New Testament one), Titus, Nathaniel, Nicodemus, and many more. Are you suggesting that they were all assumed into heaven?

 

[CoreyD]

The difference is that there are plenty of examples in the bible of Christians on earth praying for others Christians. There are no examples in the bible of Christians asking Christians who have gone to heaven to pray for them. As for Mary being assumed, there are plenty of people in the bible whose deaths are not mentioned - Joseph (the New Testament one), Titus, Nathaniel, Nicodemus, and many more. Are you suggesting that they were all assumed into heaven?

The difference is, asking someone and praying to someone are two different things.
Ultimately, the main purpose of prayer is worship.

Prayer is often described as an act of worship, emphasizing the deep spiritual connection between the individual and God. According to various sources, prayer is not merely a means to request something but is fundamentally an expression of reverence, adoration, and submission to God.

If you ask the person a simple question. Are you praying to Mary? I don't think they will say no.

 

[Jipsah]

The difference is that there are plenty of examples in the bible of Christians on earth praying for others Christians. There are no examples in the bible of Christians asking Christians who have gone to heaven to pray for them.

In other words, "It don't say you can." Fair play. But there's a long, long tradition of it in the Christian Faith. I'll take the chances that my requests (I want to distinguish my asking saints for their prayers in my behalf from praying to them, to prevent the ridiculous and insulting accusation beloved by uber-Protestants that I worship those saints and consider them some kind of subordinate gods). may not be heard. God will still hear my prayers to HIm in our Lord's Name, so no harm done.

As for Mary being assumed, there are plenty of people in the bible whose deaths are not mentioned

I didn't say you needed to believe it. Once again, the tradition that she was assumed into Heaven. Mainline Protestants are a bit too ready to dismiss traffion out of hand, and I can't consider their opinions to be in ny way authoritative. Maybe they're right, maybe they're not. If the BVM isn't hearing my requests, then I've wasted my time, which isn't worth all that much anyway.

- Joseph (the New Testament one), Titus, Nathaniel, Nicodemus, and many more. Are you suggesting that they were all assumed into heaven?

Is there some reason why I should? Is that a tradition of the Church, or any portion of it? If so I'm unaware of it.

 

[David Lamb]

In other words, "It don't say you can." Fair play. But there's a long, long tradition of it in the Christian Faith. I'll take the chances that my requests (I want to distinguish my asking saints for their prayers in my behalf from praying to them, to prevent the ridiculous and insulting accusation beloved by uber-Protestants that I worship those saints and consider them some kind of subordinate gods). may not be heard. God will still hear my prayers to HIm in our Lord's Name, so no harm done.

I didn't say you needed to believe it. Once again, the tradition that she was assumed into Heaven. Mainline Protestants are a bit too ready to dismiss traffion out of hand, and I can't consider their opinions to be in ny way authoritative. Maybe they're right, maybe they're not. If the BVM isn't hearing my requests, then I've wasted my time, which isn't worth all that much anyway.

Is there some reason why I should? Is that a tradition of the Church, or any portion of it? If so I'm unaware of it.

I assure you I didn't accuse you of worshipping Mary.

I don't understand your word "traffion," in the phrase "too ready to dismiss traffion out of hand." I did a Google search for "traffion meaning" with no results.

I wasn't suggesting that people other than Mary whose deaths aren't mentioned in the bible were subjects of tradition in the church. The point is, you had used the fact that Mary's death isn't mentioned in the bible as evidence for her assumption into heaven. My point was that the non-mention of someone's death was no indication that the person had been assumed.

 

[jas3]

I don't understand your word "traffion," in the phrase "too ready to dismiss traffion out of hand." I did a Google search for "traffion meaning" with no results.

That's probably a typo of "tradition."

 

[Jipsah]

That's probably a typo of "tradition."

Condistering the fcat that I'n the worl's best ty;pst, that hardly seams likey, does it?

 

[David Lamb]

That's probably a typo of "tradition."

Could be, I suppose. Thanks.

 

[David Lamb]

Condistering the fcat that I'n the worl's best ty;pst, that hardly seams likey, does it?

Neiter am I! I jist hype yuo didmt take any of fence, as nun was intebted.

 

[Valletta]

I don't see the term "guardian angels" in the bible. The idea that each of us has one particular angel assigned to guard us seems to be something the bible doesn't mention. It does say that angels in general care for Christians. To do so, angels must either be able to see and hear us themselves, or to respond to God's directions, or both.

Jesus referred to our guardian angels in Matthew 18:10 but did not use the word "guardian." Saint Jerome used that word: "The dignity of a soul is so great, that each has a guardian angel from its birth."

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus referred to our guardian angels in Matthew 18:10 but did not use the word "guardian." Saint Jerome used that word: "The dignity of a soul is so great, that each has a guardian angel from its birth."

As He did not use the word "guardian", why assume that is what He meant? Followers of Jesus are said by Jesus to have angels ministering to them, not that each Christian has one angel charged with guarding him or her.

 

[CoreyD]

As He did not use the word "guardian", why assume that is what He meant? Followers of Jesus are said by Jesus to have angels ministering to them, not that each Christian has one angel charged with guarding him or her.

Shows how far the early church fathers went in adopting their own ideas into church doctrine, and how people down through the ages have taken these up, and held on to them... not letting them go, even if they are shown that the Bible does not support these ideas.

It's not the common practice today, to heed the apostles' warnings.
Galatians 1:8, 9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Nor Jesus'. Matthew 24:11

 

[Valletta]

Shows how far the early church fathers went in adopting their own ideas into church doctrine, and how people down through the ages have taken these up, and held on to them... not letting them go, even if they are shown that the Bible does not support these ideas.

It's not the common practice today, to heed the apostles' warnings.
Galatians 1:8, 9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Nor Jesus'. Matthew 24:11

That each individual has a guardian angel is not part of Catholic Church teaching, but it a belief of many practicing Catholics. Your allegation is also false on another point, the Bible does support each person having a guardian angel, although it does not flat come out and say it. One could technically argue that multiple angels are guardians for us, or perhaps one angel for numerous individual. I think each of us has a guardian angel and I enjoy discussions without accusation against the Church. Before proceeding this is a good time to clarify the difference between Catholic Sacred Tradition and manmade tradition. Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles in the deposit of faith. Manmade traditions are not from that deposit of faith, Catholics and Protestants have various manmade traditions. The use of candles is a Catholic manmade, tradition, probably with an origin from Catholics saying mass in the catacombs. A Protestant tradition is their 66 book canon, which originated by taking the Catholic canon of the Bible, dropping seven books but keeping the same order of books established by the Catholic Church in the 300s. There were no 66 book Bibles for most of the history of Christianity and there is nothing in the Bible about men waiting 1400 or so years to come up with a correct Bible. We can disagree on such things without throwing out Galatians. A Protestant and Catholic manmade tradition is to put a cross on top of a church. Back to opinions on angels. Consider that when Jesus was in agony an angel came to strengthen him, Luke 22:43. Just one. Was Jesus lacking so much power that He needed an angel? God did not need an angel for strength. Then what was the purpose of sending one angel, what message did God wish to convey to us? I personally think that based on not just this passage, but the entire Word of God (for example, Daniel has one angel supporting him) it is likely we each have one guardian angel. Others may disagree, and I respect that.

 

[ozso]

Shows how far the early church fathers went in adopting their own ideas into church doctrine, and how people down through the ages have taken these up, and held on to them... not letting them go, even if they are shown that the Bible does not support these ideas.

It's not the common practice today, to heed the apostles' warnings.
Galatians 1:8, 9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Nor Jesus'. Matthew 24:11

The earliest church fathers didn't really say anything about the traditions and practices that came into the church later. A lot of it didn't get going until the late 4th century. I might be more inclined go along with whatever tradition and practice that's not found in the Bible, as long as the Apostolic Fathers clearly taught it. But that's not the case.

 

[ozso]

That each individual has a guardian angel is not part of Catholic Church teaching, but it a belief of many practicing Catholics. Your allegation is also false on another point, the Bible does support each person having a guardian angel, although it does not flat come out and say it. One could technically argue that multiple angels are guardians for us, or perhaps one angel for numerous individual. I think each of us has a guardian angel and I enjoy discussions without accusation against the Church. Before proceeding this is a good time to clarify the difference between Catholic Sacred Tradition and manmade tradition. Sacred Tradition was passed down from Jesus through the Apostles in the deposit of faith. Manmade traditions are not from that deposit of faith, Catholics and Protestants have various manmade traditions. The use of candles is a Catholic manmade, tradition, probably with an origin from Catholics saying mass in the catacombs. A Protestant tradition is their 66 book canon, which originated by taking the Catholic canon of the Bible, dropping seven books but keeping the same order of books established by the Catholic Church in the 300s. There were no 66 book Bibles for most of the history of Christianity and there is nothing in the Bible about men waiting 1400 or so years to come up with a correct Bible. We can disagree on such things without throwing out Galatians. A Protestant and Catholic manmade tradition is to put a cross on top of a church. Back to opinions on angels. Consider that when Jesus was in agony an angel came to strengthen him, Luke 22:43. Just one. Was Jesus lacking so much power that He needed an angel? God did not need an angel for strength. Then what was the purpose of sending one angel, what message did God wish to convey to us? I personally think that based on not just this passage, but the entire Word of God (for example, Daniel has one angel supporting him) it is likely we each have one guardian angel. Others may disagree, and I respect that.

Guardian angels is pretty universal throughout Christianity. What comes into question is being overly preoccupied with angels. Some go a bit overboard with it.

 

[Valletta]

Guardian angels is pretty universal throughout Christianity. What comes into question is being overly preoccupied with angels. Some go a bit overboard with it.

Isn't it relative? Catholics take our intercessors in Heaven seriously and since God gave us the avenue of intercessory prayer wish to use it. But isn't our view of angels relative? Early Catholics seemed much more aware of angels then most Christians of today:

Acts 12:14-16 Recognizing Peter’s voice, in her joy she did not open the gate but ran in and told that Peter was standing at the gate. 15 They said to her, “You are mad.” But she insisted that it was so. They said, “It is his angel!” 16 But Peter continued knocking; and when they opened, they saw him and were amazed. RSVCE

Note the reference to "his angel." I think the typical Christian of today would be more amazed if was the angel at the door. As I've said before, Catholics take the communion of saints quite seriously, we often have kneelers near statues of saints so we can ask them to pray for us.

 

[ozso]

Isn't it relative? Catholics take our intercessors in Heaven seriously and since God gave us the avenue of intercessory prayer wish to use it. But isn't our view of angels relative? Early Catholics seemed much more aware of angels then most Christians of today:

Acts 12:14-16 Recognizing Peter’s voice, in her joy she did not open the gate but ran in and told that Peter was standing at the gate. 15 They said to her, “You are mad.” But she insisted that it was so. They said, “It is his angel!” 16 But Peter continued knocking; and when they opened, they saw him and were amazed. RSVCE

Note the reference to "his angel." I think the typical Christian of today would be more amazed if was the angel at the door.

I didn't mean Catholics in particular. Frank Peretti who's a Protestant wrote a very popular series of books about angels interacting with people. Then there's Highway to Heaven, Touched by an Angel etc. I've heard real life stories Protestants have told about possible help from an angel. The comforting stanger who suddenly shows up at a time of need and then basically vanishes. Hebrews 13:2 is a popular verse among Protestants. Definitely not just a Catholic thing.

As I've said before, Catholics take the communion of saints quite seriously, we often have kneelers near statues of saints so we can ask them to pray for us.

That however is pretty much just a Catholic thing. And it probably took at least until the 4th century to become an established practice. It certainly isn't decribed as a practice established by God in the entire history of God's people from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Valletta]

I didn't mean Catholics in particular. Frank Peretti who's a Protestant wrote a very popular series of books about angels interacting with people. Then there's Highway to Heaven, Touched by an Angel etc. I've heard real life stories Protestants have told about possible help from an angel. The comforting stanger who suddenly shows up at a time of need and then basically vanishes. Hebrews 13:2 is a popular verse among Protestants. Definitely not just a Catholic thing.

That however is pretty much just a Catholic thing. And it probably took at least until the 4th century to become an established practice. It certainly isn't decribed as a practice established by God in the entire history of God's people from Genesis to Revelation.

Of course Heaven was not opened up to the saints in OT times. And many who did end up as saints in Heaven, such as the Apostles, were alive and with the people for a good portion of NT times. Also the Catholic Church grows in the cumulative understanding of the deposit of the faith as time passes.

 

[ozso]

Of course Heaven was not opened up to the saints in OT times. And many who did end up as saints in Heaven, such as the Apostles, were alive and with the people for a good portion of NT times.

I'm not sure what you mean by Heaven wasn't opened up to saints in OT times. Aren't OT prophets referred to as saints? And doesn't 2 Maccabees 15 decribe Saint Jeremiah in Heaven handing a sword down to Judas? As I recall 2 Maccabees 15:15 is used as a Catholic proof text for prying to saints.

Also the Catholic Church grows in the cumulative understanding of the deposit of the faith as time passes.

Yes, but what comes into question is how much of later traditions and practices are man made. Like lighting candles as you pointed out. Not that man made tradition and practice is automatically a bad thing by any means.

 

[Valletta]

I'm not sure what you mean by Heaven wasn't opened up to saints in OT times. Aren't OT prophets referred to as saints? And doesn't 2 Maccabees 15 decribe Saint Jeremiah in Heaven handing a sword down to Judas? As I recall 2 Maccabees 15:15 is used as a Catholic proof text for prying to saints.

Yes, but what comes into question is how much of later traditions and practices are man made. Like lighting candles as you pointed out. Not that man made tradition and practice is automatically a bad thing by any means.

It doesn't come into question for me as long as it supports our love of Jesus and deepening understanding of the deposit of the faith.

 

[CoreyD]

The earliest church fathers didn't really say anything about the traditions and practices that came into the church later. A lot of it didn't get going until the late 4th century. I might be more inclined go along with whatever tradition and practice that's not found in the Bible, as long as the Apostolic Fathers clearly taught it. But that's not the case.

I'm tempted to give a thorough response, but since getting into this might be considered off topic, could you please take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7, and the surrounding verses, as well as Acts 20:29, 30, as soon as you get opportunity. ...and can you please consider when these words were written, and when the writer died.
From those words would it have taken 400 years or more like 40... or even 4... if we consider 2 Peter 2:1 and 1 John 2:18, 19?