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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

bling

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Adam passed down to all humans the knowledge of good and evil (The sin nature). Adam (and Eve) were not created and made with that knowledge, it came to them after they ate of the fruit.
That is a unique take on the "sin nature" and if that is what we are talking about I fully agree with you but would explain further. Does this make knowledge into nature (something natural in humans)?
Yes! we have the Law written on our hearts and our conscious do burden us, when we hurt others.
There is nothing "wrong" with knowledge in and of itself, so did Jesus have this "sin nature"? Everyone thinks Jesus had the knowledge, but few feel He had a "sin nature", so what do you think?
 
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Brightfame52

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You want to blame the listener and not the teacher?
You cant help it, you just cant comprehend, be like that sometimes. Its not Gods will for everyone to have understanding of spiritual matters, its just not given to them Lk 8

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Matt 13:11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 
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Fervent

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Everyone thinks Jesus had the knowledge, but few feel He had a "sin nature", so what do you think?
Which is where the whole idea of "sin nature" becomes exposed. It leads to a docetic vision of Jesus, and runs counter to the wisdom put simply by Gregory Nazianzus "That which is not assumed is not healed(redeemed)" So if our "sin nature" condemned us prior to Jesus, it condemns us after Jesus.
 
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d taylor

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Mark Quayle said:
And this is all that Salvific Faith is? Simple belief? Have you not been quoted before, that the demons also believe?

You will likely retort, as have all those before you, that it is also submission and trust, not just acknowledgement, and that is true, but still lacking what Scripture describes. One fellow told me it is like his trust in his wife, that she has convinced him that she is trustworthy. If that is all this is, I am wondering just who you think God is, and of what little import sin and the fallen nature is.

God is not like us.


d taylor said:
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Since a demon is not a human, there is no reason to bring them into a discussion about people receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life only by belief in Jesus. Unless you believe Jesus also died for demons and if that is the case. You are too far out there in your beliefs for me to discuss that.

Mark Quayle said:
How do you get this so wrong??? What I was saying is that your example of believing someone has brown hair has NOTHING to do with salvific faith. It is ludicrous! God is not like us, and faith in him has nothing to do with becoming convinced, or learning what we can trust him to do, or about anything else, but becoming transformed from death to life. The faith is not generated by us, but by HIM. It is a gift of God, not of man, done inside the regenerated by God himself --the Spirit of God-- when he takes up permanent residence inside those to whom God has chosen to show mercy.

So belief in Jesus is just like any other belief? REALLY??? Just for starters, does the fact that your chair will hold your weight and the floor below it too, demand your obedience and submission?

Not to accept your notion of the belief and trust being like the other, but: How does one do that, when, corrupt to the core, he is at enmity with God, cannot submit to God's law, will not submit to God, and cannot do anything that pleases God? (Romans 8 again, btw)


Do you back out when you made a mistake? It would at least be more congenial if you would admit to the strawman by which you attacked me, concerning my mention of demons, when my only reference to demons was demonstrative of intellectual assent vs. salvific faith. It was not about demons. Give me that much, at least, instead of dismissal.

We have, indeed, had this discussion many times in the past, and, like you, I have grown tired of answering your objections and claims. But when faced with a miscommunication on my part, I have, at least, tried to amend my statements before leaving the conversation.
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Well i will honor you with one more reply to this discussion and about your demon verse in James. Which by the way does not say the demons believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, the verse only states the demons believe God is one. Which is never mention in The Bible as something a person has to believe to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Now i am finished discussing this verse.

https://faithalone.org/blog/a-different-twist-on-james-219/

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-focus-articles/do-demons-really-believe/

https://faithalone.org/journal-articles/the-faith-of-demons/

https://faithalone.org/blog/scrambled-word-tests/

https://faithalone.org/blog/how-to-respond-to-a-works-salvation-friend/
 
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d taylor

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That is a unique take on the "sin nature" and if that is what we are talking about I fully agree with you but would explain further. Does this make knowledge into nature (something natural in humans)?
Yes! we have the Law written on our hearts and our conscious do burden us, when we hurt others.
There is nothing "wrong" with knowledge in and of itself, so did Jesus have this "sin nature"? Everyone thinks Jesus had the knowledge, but few feel He had a "sin nature", so what do you think?
-

Sure Jesus has knowledge of good and evil how can He not, but His knowledge did not come from Adam.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I do not believe that family members of saved persons are saved. Not then, not now. They might, by the faith of the saved, and the prayers they pray, and the gospel they share, have a hope for salvation, but they aren’t saved until God steps in for them personally.
Are you even trying to see the point? That is not at all what I was saying. Read what I said again. I said this..

There is no indication whatsoever in Acts 16 that the jailer was already His before he asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved. And Paul and Silas made it clear that what they said he had to do was true for everyone in his household as well. So, are you going to claim that everyone in the jailer's household was already His as well?
So, what I was saying here is that just as the jailer was told what to do to be saved "believe on the Lord Jesus" that is what every other person in his household would need to do to be saved as well. Why would Paul and Silas have said that if they didn't think it was possible for everyone in the household to be saved?

You are trying to say that the jailer was already God's before he even asked Paul and Silas how to be saved, but Paul and Silas were indicating that was how anyone could be saved. So, there is no basis for you claiming that the jailer was already God's before even knowing what to do to be saved or else you'd have to claim that everyone in his household was also God's since what Paul and Silas said applied to them as well. Any of them who wanted to be saved also would have to put their faith in the Lord Jesus in order to be saved. That is what anyone has to do to be saved and there is no indication anywhere that you have to already belong to God in order to put your faith in Jesus.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My Point is Christs will caused them to come to Him and believe and follow Him as His Sheep
You are not addressing my point. John 12:32 says He will draw all people to Him, and yet not all people are His sheep. So, what is your explanation for how some of those who are drawn to Him don't end up being His sheep?
 
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A New Dawn

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Are you even trying to see the point? That is not at all what I was saying. Read what I said again. I said this..

So, what I was saying here is that just as the jailer was told what to do to be saved "believe on the Lord Jesus" that is what every other person in his household would need to do to be saved as well. Why would Paul and Silas have said that if they didn't think it was possible for everyone in the household to be saved?

You are trying to say that the jailer was already God's before he even asked Paul and Silas how to be saved, but Paul and Silas were indicating that was how anyone could be saved. So, there is no basis for you claiming that the jailer was already God's before even knowing what to do to be saved or else you'd have to claim that everyone in his household was also God's since what Paul and Silas said applied to them as well. Any of them who wanted to be saved also would have to put their faith in the Lord Jesus in order to be saved. That is what anyone has to do to be saved and there is no indication anywhere that you have to already belong to God in order to put your faith in Jesus.
You are free to believe what you want, I prefer to read from the scriptures that Paul said that there are none that seek, none that understand. That means that if he is already asking, God is working in his heart. Paul doesn't know who is going to be saved, just like we don't know, but if someone comes up and shows a lot of interest, then it is a clue that God is already working in them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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He did draw all people, all the people He drew unto Himself, duh What you think He attempted to draw them, took a stab at it.
LOL. You are proving that you can't be taken seriously. You are twisting the text in John 12:32 to fit your false doctrine. It says "all people", not "all the people He drew unto Himself". It says literally all people are drawn to Him and you're trying to change the text. Some are drawn to Him, but then decide to reject Him and they resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

It makes sense that it says that He draws literally all people to Himself since scripture also says that He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and that God graciously offers salvation to all people (1 Timothy 2:3-6). But, instead of accepting what the text clearly says, you dishonestly change it to fit your doctrine instead.
 
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Brightfame52

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You are not addressing my point. John 12:32 says He will draw all people to Him, and yet not all people are His sheep. So, what is your explanation for how some of those who are drawn to Him don't end up being His sheep?
Its limited to all whom He causes to believe in Him and follow Him
 
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Brightfame52

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LOL. You are proving that you can't be taken seriously. You are twisting the text in John 12:32 to fit your false doctrine. It says "all people", not "all the people He drew unto Himself". It says literally all people are drawn to Him and you're trying to change the text. Some are drawn to Him, but then decide to reject Him and they resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

It makes sense that it says that He draws literally all people to Himself since scripture also says that He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and that God graciously offers salvation to all people (1 Timothy 2:3-6). But, instead of accepting what the text clearly says, you dishonestly change it to fit your doctrine instead.
He did literally draw all unto Him that as a result believe in Him. He didnt draw folk that didnt come unto Him and believe, else He is a liar
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You are free to believe what you want, I prefer to read from the scriptures that Paul said that there are none that seek, none that understand.
Did you bother to look up the scripture that Paul was referring to there?

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. 4 Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord. 5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. 6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge.

This is talking specifically about those who say there is no God. Even before I became a Christian, I didn't deny that there is a God. Many non-Christians don't claim that there is no God. The ones who do not seek and do not understand are those who say there is no God. They are contrasted with "my people" (God's people), so that's not talking about all people. It's talking particularly about the people who say "there is no God" and "devour my people as though eating bread" who "never call on the Lord".

If there were literally none who seek God, then that would contradict this verse...

Hebrews 11:6 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Your doctrine is based on cherry picked scriptures that you take out of context. It contradicts many other scriptures. You do not dig deep enough for the truth.

That means that if he is already asking, God is working in his heart. Paul doesn't know who is going to be saved, just like we don't know, but if someone comes up and shows a lot of interest, then it is a clue that God is already working in them.
But, even when someone is showing interest, it's not a guarantee that the person will be saved. Read this...

Matthew 13:19 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Look at verses 20 and 21 in particular. See how someone can be interested and even accept the gospel message with joy for awhile? Yet, they later fall away because of trouble or persecution. So, even if someone is showing interest it's not a guarantee that they are someone who is one of God's elect who will end up in heaven. Paul and Silas would have given that answer to any person asking it, regardless of how interested they really were. And Paul and Silas would not have said that the same goes for anyone in the jailer's household in terms of what any of them had to do to be saved if it wasn't possible for all of them to be saved. Yet, they said that without even knowing if they were interested in knowing how to be saved or not.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Its limited to all whom He causes to believe in Him and follow Him
That's not taught in scripture anywhere. You are just sharing things from your imagination and not from scripture like I'm doing.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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He did literally draw all unto Him that as a result believe in Him. He didnt draw folk that didnt come unto Him and believe, else He is a liar
It says He draws "all people" to Himself. You are trying to say it's not "all people". You are deliberately twisting the word of God to fit your doctrine which is unacceptable. Being drawn to Him does not guarantee that someone will take the next step and put their faith and trust in Him. Everyone must make that choice after being drawn to Him by hearing the word of God and having the Holy Spirit talk to their hearts. As I showed with Acts 7:51, some resist the Holy Spirit. That's entirely their own choice and it's their own fault that they don't believe. They can't say that God didn't offer them salvation. He offers all people salvation (Titus 2:11) and all people are required to choose whether to accept or reject it.
 
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Brightfame52

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That's not taught in scripture anywhere. You are just sharing things from your imagination and not from scripture like I'm doing.
Sure it is, He said that He would draw them UNTO HIMSELF ! Are calling Him a Liar ?
 
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Brightfame52

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It says He draws "all people" to Himself. You are trying to say it's not "all people". You are deliberately twisting the word of God to fit your doctrine which is unacceptable. Being drawn to Him does not guarantee that someone will take the next step and put their faith and trust in Him. Everyone must make that choice after being drawn to Him by hearing the word of God and having the Holy Spirit talk to their hearts. As I showed with Acts 7:51, some resist the Holy Spirit. That's entirely their own choice and it's their own fault that they don't believe. They can't say that God didn't offer them salvation. He offers all people salvation (Titus 2:11) and all people are required to choose whether to accept or reject it.
He did draw people, what you think He meant frogs ? He drew all the people that He drew to himself, they became His followers, they were His Sheep
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Sure it is, He said that He would draw them UNTO HIMSELF ! Are calling Him a Liar ?
Please grow up. You are incredibly childish. Of course I'm not calling Him a liar. I'm saying that you do not understand what He said. You can't change the text from "all people" to something other than "all people". That makes YOU a liar. Instead, you need to determine what it means for Him to draw all people to Himself. I'm telling you what it means. I showed you an example of those who were drawn to Him, but instead of taking the next step and giving their lives to Him, they resist the Holy Spirit instead (Acts 7:51).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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He did draw people, what you think He meant frogs ? He drew all the people that He drew to himself, they became His followers, they were His Sheep
He said He would draw all people to Himself in John 12:32 and you are trying to change the text! Do you have no conscience? Why do you think you can get away with changing the text of God's word? Instead of foolishly and dishonestly changing the text to make it say what you want it to say, you need to take the time to determine what that means for Him to draw all people to Himself.

Tell me, how can a person who is not one of Christ's sheep resist the Holy Spirit if God supposedly doesn't call them to repentance and salvation as you believe?

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
 
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Brightfame52

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Please grow up. You are incredibly childish. Of course I'm not calling Him a liar. I'm saying that you do not understand what He said. You can't change the text from "all people" to something other than "all people". That makes YOU a liar. Instead, you need to determine what it means for Him to draw all people to Himself. I'm telling you what it means. I showed you an example of those who were drawn to Him, but instead of taking the next step and giving their lives to Him, they resist the Holy Spirit instead (Acts 7:51).
If Jesus said He would draw them unto Himself, they came and they were blessed Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
 
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