Hi, Just call me Bob. Agnostic up for friendly debate

[Bobthebomb]

Thanks to everyone who offered support btw. Just reading it now and feel even more guilty!

 

[Zceptre]

Thanks to everyone who offered support btw. Just reading it now and feel even more guilty!

Glad to see you here regardless the circumstances. God works in mysterious ways. Every Saint was a wretched sinner, and we all still fall. We are not perfect or righteous without Christ...

Don't worry, they are all understanding. (if they aren't, ignore them, we will get them later. lol)

 

[Bobthebomb]

I used to be into whatever mind-numbing substance I could get. Raised Christian, mind you. I eventually became a heroin addict, hooked on pot, cigarettes and alcohol became the stick once I got "clean". One day, lying in my bed....I saw a shining man who leaned in and gave me his hand. Upon grabbing his hand, I realized I had been in a grave, and he had pulled me up. I will never forget...the thought that I had no clue why I was "supposed" to believe, what did it all mean, why did my family honor Christ...it left me and I dedicated my life to Jesus. I will never regret it. I got completely sober, changed my life, got a real job, got a real relationship with my family, married a wonderful man.

I will only say that if I hadn't taken a chance on my encounter, I do honestly think I wouldn't have such a rich and full life right now...I probably still would be struggling, making petty mistakes and wasting my life. But look - what do you *feel your experience amounts to? Do you *feel like the Lord was reaching out to you? Once I watched "The Boondock Saints", and I saw Willem Dafoe talking about right from wrong. It was quite compelling, his character being a homosexual police officer, and he was struggling with the faith of the Catholic brothers, who were very devout. I learned later that Willem Dafoe also played Jesus in the Last Temptation of Christ. Hey - it meant something to me!

But the journey is completely about you. Whatever you get out of it...is valid.

To be honest I don't remember a lot. A brief feeling of warmth followed by an overwhelming feeling of guilt. Like trying to apologise for everything you have ever done wrong in your life all at once. Well, that's how I remember it.

 

[Bobthebomb]

The Lord is calling you to Himself. If the impact is this strong and this convicting it definitely is not a result of being drunk. It is a result of God having mercy on you and turning you to walk the way you did instead of into the water where you could have drowned. This is not coincidence brother. Come to the family and become an adopted child of God and see yourself what we see that you can't see right now!

Matthew 13:16 in the King James Version, where Jesus says to His disciples:

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

In this passage, Jesus is acknowledging the disciples' ability to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God, which many others do not. It's a reminder of the privilege and blessing of spiritual insight, as the disciples were able to grasp the deeper meanings of His teachings.

It's easy to convince yourself otherwise, though it did confirm to me that I am an agnostic and not an atheist. I may not believe, but I can never say God does not exist, if that makes sense?

 

[Bobthebomb]

Glad to see you here regardless the circumstances. God works in mysterious ways. Every Saint was a wretched sinner, and we all still fall. We are not perfect or righteous without Christ...

Don't worry, they are all understanding. (if they aren't, ignore them, we will get them later. lol)

Oh, the one bit of the story I never had a problem with is admitting that I am a sinner. Whether that is in the eyes of a God or just being an imperfect person, I fit the bill. Not evil you understand, I try to be good and do the right thing, but not perfect by any means.

 

[Zceptre]

I'll give you something you can try. Everyone likes evidence, right?

Pray to God the Son (Jesus), ask Him to show you who He is, and if He is the real deal. Write a note that you prayed it (so you can't forget).

James 4:6 - Remember this part. God likes humility and respect. (like we all do)

If He responds ("when" actually, I know, but you will find out lol), then continue the conversation, and when you pray for help or answers, write down what you ask. (prayer journal/log) Then check back later and see if He is answering your prayers and responding to you.

This tends to shock people when they realize how much God actually responds to us and how we tend not to notice and/or forget things.

Can't hurt anything. Can change your life. Just a suggestion...

Make sure you ask in Jesus' name. You might feel weird saying it at the end of the prayer, but Jesus paid the bill for the prayers to get answered. It is what gives us access to all the promises. (Like answered prayers --> Promised - John 14:14 - 2 Corinthians 1:20)

Sure beats taking other people's word for it second hand.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Oh, the one bit of the story I never had a problem with is admitting that I am a sinner. Whether that is in the eyes of a God or just being an imperfect person, I fit the bill. Not evil you understand, I try to be good and do the right thing, but not perfect by any means.

Interesting - you're summed up one of the central tenents of Christianity - that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23) - and of course "all have sinned" includes Christians.

Keep searching and asking questions!

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

I'm sorry everyone.
I did not join to troll or anything. I was (as I am now) a bit "under the influence" when I first posted and did not return once I sobered.
I "become sensible" when I am sober, though I cannot of late shift a nagging doubt.
My "sober self" is too embarrassed to be here, please bear with me.

I wish you all well in the meantime.

Inebriated forum joining is the best kind of forum joining. I'm glad you're here. I'm new also, and it's good to meet you, Sir.

 

[Bobthebomb]

Interesting - you're summed up one of the central tenents of Christianity - that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23) - and of course "all have sinned" includes Christians.

Keep searching and asking questions!

That's why I visited the site.
I am interested in how people come to believe.
Not through tradition, but the actual act of believing.

 

[Bobthebomb]

I'll give you something you can try. Everyone likes evidence, right?

Pray to God the Son (Jesus), ask Him to show you who He is, and if He is the real deal. Write a note that you prayed it (so you can't forget).

James 4:6 - Remember this part. God likes humility and respect. (like we all do)

If He responds ("when" actually, I know, but you will find out lol), then continue the conversation, and when you pray for help or answers, write down what you ask. (prayer journal/log) Then check back later and see if He is answering your prayers and responding to you.

This tends to shock people when they realize how much God actually responds to us and how we tend not to notice and/or forget things.

Can't hurt anything. Can change your life. Just a suggestion...

Make sure you ask in Jesus' name. You might feel weird saying it at the end of the prayer, but Jesus paid the bill for the prayers to get answered. It is what gives us access to all the promises. (Like answered prayers --> Promised - John 14:14 - 2 Corinthians 1:20)

Sure beats taking other people's word for it second hand.

You may be surprised to know that I do regularly talk to God.
It's a one way conversation but yes, sometimes I do feel like I receive answers.
BUT am I answering my own questions?

My question is, what makes you certain?

 

[Bobthebomb]

Inebriated forum joining is the best kind of forum joining. I'm glad you're here. I'm new also, and it's good to meet you, Sir.

Did you ever have a moment where He might have answered you?
If I had experienced what I did while sober I would have no doubts.

 

[Michie]

That's why I visited the site.
I am interested in how people come to believe.
Not through tradition, but the actual act of believing.

You may be interested in one of the forums here: Outreach. This one is just for intros.

 

[linux.poet]

You may be interested in one of the forums here: Outreach. This one is just for intros.

I agree. Exploring Christianity would be a good place for those questions. @Bobthebomb, I strongly suggest starting a new thread there with the questions you just posted in posts #29, #30, and #31.

 

[Fervent]

My question is, what makes you certain?

Certainty is a fool's errand, and while that question wasn't directed at me I'll share with you my view. What we have available are two options, to embrace nihiliism and despair because we are happenstance creatures living in a meaningless universe that is far more often dominated by cruelty and oppression, or we can grasp onto the faint light and hope of faith in the promise that all will be made right. Can we be certain that God exists? No, though perhaps we'll get glimpses not so different from the ones you seem to get yourself. A momentary sense of His presence in the breeze, an overwhelming sense of...alienness...that only lasts a fleeting moment. There's no guarantee, but when the day ends and the long night begins either the promise will be fulfilled...or we will vanish never to know that our hope was false. It's not perfect, it doesn't take away any nagging doubts, but faith often makes life worth living even in those moments where all of our circumstances tell us there is no cause for hope.

So welcome to the forums, and I hope you stick around. Look forward to what you bring to the debate stage, and I'll try not to get too fiery should we exchange arguments.

 

[Bobthebomb]

Certainty is a fool's errand, and while that question wasn't directed at me I'll share with you my view. What we have available are two options, to embrace nihiliism and despair because we are happenstance creatures living in a meaningless universe that is far more often dominated by cruelty and oppression, or we can grasp onto the faint light and hope of faith in the promise that all will be made right. Can we be certain that God exists? No, though perhaps we'll get glimpses not so different from the ones you seem to get yourself. A momentary sense of His presence in the breeze, an overwhelming sense of...alienness...that only lasts a fleeting moment. There's no guarantee, but when the day ends and the long night begins either the promise will be fulfilled...or we will vanish never to know that our hope was false. It's not perfect, it doesn't take away any nagging doubts, but faith often makes life worth living even in those moments where all of our circumstances tell us there is no cause for hope.

So welcome to the forums, and I hope you stick around. Look forward to what you bring to the debate stage, and I'll try not to get too fiery should we exchange arguments.

Forgive me, when I said "certainty" I did not mean "Know for certain."
I meant how do you "feel" the certainty of what you believe? What is it that makes YOU certain that what you believe is true?
As I said in my original post, I am not antagonistic, I genuinely want to know how a believer "accepts" what they believe is really true?

 

[Fervent]

Forgive me, when I said "certainty" I did not mean "Know for certain."
I meant how do you "feel" the certainty of what you believe? What is it that makes YOU certain that what you believe is true?

I'm a philosophical skeptic, so the only thing I know is that the statement "truth is truth" is true. I believe that there is a reasonable case for the resurrection, admittedly built on Biblical data but not using it as truth simpliciter but instead using it to establish a timeline and order of when beliefs developed to highlight that naturalistic explanations like legendary development are insufficient to explain such belief and then comparing similar stories with less uncertainty about them like the cargo cults of micronesia. From there, I make the inference that the simplest(that is the explanation with the fewest need for ad hoc adjustments) is that the resurrection was an authentic historical event. That's the rational aspect of my belief, but what moves me to faith is from my personal experiences where God has intervened in my life and made His presence known to me. Mght I be wrong in all of this? Sure, but what do I have to lose in believing?

As I said in my original post, I am not antagonistic, I genuinely want to know how a believer "accepts" what they believe is really true?

In short, faith. It bridges the gap between our inability to make an objective assessment and accepting it as real. For me, it likely began as wishful thinking...a sort of, why shouldn't I believe in such promises? The reasons came later, and as a result of relationship.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

Did you ever have a moment where He might have answered you?
If I had experienced what I did while sober I would have no doubts.

I have. This is a weird experience, but I was going through a period of intense, awful anxiety and anguish due to past abuse. Sometimes all the "awful" just bubbles up to the surface. There's an old, T-shaped wash pole in the yard behind mine that kind of looks like a tau-cross. I like to sit in front of it, and just kind of relax, gaze at nature, and pray quietly.

Anyway... was having an especially awful day and I swear, out of the wash-pole cross I heard a voice distinctly emanate that said "I love you". It was very distinct. Soft, but distinct, and not a thought that I had. But rather, a sound that proceeded out of it. I've only had a handful of experiences like that but yes, sometimes.