No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[SavedByGrace3]

I think one of the biggest problems along these lines is the notion that Jesus and the gospel saved us from Hell and that was it. We need to recognize that the Gospel and the work of God in the resurrection of Jesus was to enable us to overcome sin due to the new birth. We are now able to do something that was impossible prior to the new birth, and that is to NOT sin. We are now able to do righteousness from the heart. If we walk in the ability of our reborn spirit, we will never sin. His seed is in us, and it is now possible to walk with God in righteousness.

1 John 3:9 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The only part of our being that was born of God is our spirit. Our souls and flesh were not born of God. They are the same as they were before we were born again. If we follow the inclinations of our reborn spirit, we will never sin because our reborn spirit is of God, and He never sins. Like Father, like children.
So in the end, Jesus saved us from Hell, true. But in this life in our daily walk, He saved us from our sinful nature. We can now do righteousness.

 

[d taylor]

One still has to have eyes that see and ears that hear. A truism that Christ used frequently.
Matthew 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mark 4:23. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.
Luke 8:8. Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

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Why is satan active in deceiving people to the message of life.

 

[A New Dawn]

No man can come to Christ unless drawn by God, but since all men will be drawn there's no selectively as in some will be called and others won't. All will be drawn. So if all do not come to Christ, that means those who didn't chose not to. It's either that or all come to Christ which equals universal salvation.

I have to disagree. In John 6, not only doe He say that none can come unless they are drawn, but that of all that God gives him (and He draws) He will lose none. So there is a disconnect between the verse you quoted and Christ’s words in John. I propose that the disconnect lies in that fact that while God wants everyone to be saved (as all parents would) the only ones that are actually saved are those He has elected to save. The rest will not be drawn or regenerated, and therefore will not even have a desire to be saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

Except for the "So if all do not come to Christ, that means those who didn't chose not to" part. If man has no choice, and all are called, that means everyone on earth will be saved. And that's universalism.

They all come lest Jesus lied, He said He WILL Draw the all to Him, their choice is His Choice

 

[Brightfame52]

Ah so I can say God made me make all my wrong choices that have gone against His will. God makes me choose to sin.

Un no you cant say that, He made you sin willingly. Also its up to Him if you take your next breath !

 

[Brightfame52]

I am familiar with the doctrinal view of regeneration preceeding faith. Honestly in the end, we will all be judged equally.
Blessings

Whatever that suppose to mean.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to cover all sin, it is efficient only for those that he chooses, draws, turns their heart to himself, and gifts saving faith.

Christs Death was only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His Sheep. The sufficiency was guided by the Fathers purpose. He didnt shed one drop of blood for the goats, tares, vessels of wrath, children of the devil

 

[Fervent]

The question isn't whether we can come to Christ through a willful decision, all of Christendom is in agreement that it is God's initiative that brings us to the foot of the cross. To deny as much is to embrace Pelagianism, which has been expressly anathematized multiple times. The salient question is whether that initiative is resistable or not, a question of "free won't" more than "free will". Do all who God draws beckon the call, or does God allow men to effectively resist His influence?

 

[pasifika]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

freewill? We are slaves! either to Sin or Righteousness. Have a great day everyone!

 

[d taylor]

I have to disagree. In John 6, not only doe He say that none can come unless they are drawn, but that of all that God gives him (and He draws) He will lose none. So there is a disconnect between the verse you quoted and Christ’s words in John. I propose that the disconnect lies in that fact that while God wants everyone to be saved (as all parents would) the only ones that are actually saved are those He has elected to save. The rest will not be drawn or regenerated, and therefore will not even have a desire to be saved.

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Show the verse that states people are elected to eternal life.

 

[d taylor]

Christs Death was only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His Sheep. The sufficiency was guided by the Fathers purpose. He didnt shed one drop of blood for the goats, tares, vessels of wrath, children of the devil

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Balderdash

 

[A New Dawn]

-Why is satan active in deceiving people to the message of life.​

Not sure of your implication here, but are you suggesting that Jesus was lying when he made these comments?

 

[A New Dawn]

Christs Death was only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His Sheep. The sufficiency was guided by the Fathers purpose. He didnt shed one drop of blood for the goats, tares, vessels of wrath, children of the devil

If everyone in history was saved, would His sacrifice be enough to cover them all?

 

[d taylor]

Not sure of your implication here, but are you suggesting that Jesus was lying when he made these comments?

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Nope just your biased belief and twisting of the verses anyone can post a single verse and combine them with other verses to make a point. Post the whole parable.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

 

[Brightfame52]

freewill? We are slaves! either to Sin or Righteousness. Have a great day everyone!

Correct, Until Christ liberates one, they are a servant to sin free from righteousness Rom 6 20

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

If everyone in history was saved, would His sacrifice be enough to cover them all?

Didnt I just say its guided by His Purpose ? Listen please

 

[CoreyD]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

BrightFlame. Things can look simple when we examine one side of the coin.
When we look at the other side, however, things can look very different.

No one can climb Mount Cerro Torre free handed. Therefore, no one can climb any mountain free handed.
Hopefully you see the flaw there.

Because one aspect of a task is impossible, that does not mean the task is impossible.
Because it requires God to draw an individual base on his figurative heart condition, that does not men the person cannot act on other aspects of life on his own free will.

For example, of one's own free will, they can choose to give up smoking, sexual immorality, violent behavior, etc.
When one does that, they demonstrate a willingness to change their former course, and with God's help, they come to Christ.

Having free will does not mean being drawn to Christ.
When we limit the definition of free will to something we want it to be, we choose one side of the coin to look at. and it appears to us as if it that one side only exists.

Free will is not the ability to change our nature from sinful to sinless, our skin color from one to the other, nor the ability to affect the decision of God, who sees what we are. knows our innermost thoughts.
When we choose life, as God gave us the free will to do, then God acts according to our free willed choice, and by holy spirit draws us. Deuteronomy 30:19; Deuteronomy 28:15

Opposers of free will are fighting a losing battle, here, and it's obvious that will always be the case, because the word of God is impossible to contend with, and come off the winner.

 

[bling]

To follow up with what CoreyD just said:

Just because there are many things we cannot do of our own free will, does not mean we do not have some free will to do other stuff needed to fulfill our objective and become like God.

First off do you agree with the following:

Unbelieving sinful man cannot of his own free will do anything noble, honorable, worthy, righteous or holy, but he/she can do stuff for selfish reasons?

If sinful man did make an autonomous free will choice to follow Christ that would be an honorable, righteous, and worthy of something choice, so sinful man cannot make such a choice?

Just because we know somethings are predestined does not mean everything is predestined?

Just because one can show man does not make free will choices sometimes does not mean man does not have free will in other areas.

God has in human terms “foreknowledge” of everything?

God is outside of time and not limited by human time.

From God’s perspective there is no, before or after in the human universe, but God expressing himself anthropomorphically to humans using our understanding of time in communicating with us?

God’s omnipresent ability would include God existing throughout time.

God in His existence with perfect knowledge at the end of human time would know “historically” every thought and decision of humans throughout human existence?

Since God at the end of time is outside of time, He could send all historical information back to Himself at the beginning of time?

History cannot be changed: if it happened it happened even if God was the only one to know about some happening it cannot be changed, but God could do it over another way if he wanted?

Just the fact God (or anyone else for that matter) at the end of time knows historically all the choices a person made, does not keep, some of those choices, when they were made, from being autonomous free will choices?

God has the power to provide humans with at least some limited autonomous free will choices if He desired.

If man needed to have some very limited autonomous free will to fulfill man’s earthly object, God’s Love for humans would be great enough to provide humans with this very limited free will, virtual miraculous, ability?

God could certainly predestine to save all humans who fulfilled their earthly objective, if God wanted to without changing anything in scripture.



Here is what we might not agree with:

The one autonomous free will choice mature adults need to be able to make to complete their earthly objective is to humbly accept or reject God’s help (charity/mercy/grace/Love/forgiveness) as pure charity. In other words: sinful humans can choose to hang in there, be macho, pay the piper and take the punishment they fully deserve or they can wimp out, give up and surrender to their hated enemy, while they still hate their enemy (God) they are just willing to humbly accept their enemy’s undeserved pure charity. They still might feel they deserve from their enemy to be severely tortured to death, for their previous war crimes, yet they are willing to take undeserved charity. They are not being righteous, holy, glorious, honorable, worthy and noble in what they are doing, since it is for selfish reasons, they are willing to accept their enemy’s charity.

God is not forcing his charity on the sinner like some kind of shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, since that would not be Loving on God’s part nor would the sinner obtain Godly type Love in that manner. By accepting this Love in the form of forgiveness Jesus has taught us “…he who is forgiven much Loves much…” so humbly accepting pure undeserved forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt automatically results in the former sinner receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and thus fulfill the first part of sinners earthly objective.

Verses supporting free will

Gen. 1-3 Did Adam and Eve have free will?

Exodus 35:29 “All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.” Are these truly free will offerings?

Jonah 3: 10 “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.” Did the people of Nineveh change what God said he would do?

How is this not saying that God’s actions are contingent on the choices of the people?

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40). Note that Jesus does not say, "you cannot come", which the Greek does not say here, but, "you refuse to come", in order that you may have eternal life. It was their own rejection of Jesus and the Gospel, that would damn their souls, and not because they were "unable" to make the "choice" themselves.

Christ is God here on earth. The “whomsoever” does not mean only the elect, but lots of people, who then made the choice to accept or reject Christ. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

To say: “Christ only reveals Himself to those who God have chosen to accept Him”, means God is guilty of not helping others to accept Christ.

John 15: 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

If they have no free will, they have an excellent excuse for sinning?

There are all the “whosoever” verses making it contingent.

 

[Brightfame52]

BrightFlame. Things can look simple when we examine one side of the coin.
When we look at the other side, however, things can look very different.

No one can climb Mount Cerro Torre free handed. Therefore, no one can climb any mountain free handed.
Hopefully you see the flaw there.

Because one aspect of a task is impossible, that does not mean the task is impossible.
Because it requires God to draw an individual base on his figurative heart condition, that does not men the person cannot act on other aspects of life on his own free will.

For example, of one's own free will, they can choose to give up smoking, sexual immorality, violent behavior, etc.
When one does that, they demonstrate a willingness to change their former course, and with God's help, they come to Christ.

Having free will does not mean being drawn to Christ.
When we limit the definition of free will to something we want it to be, we choose one side of the coin to look at. and it appears to us as if it that one side only exists.

Free will is not the ability to change our nature from sinful to sinless, our skin color from one to the other, nor the ability to affect the decision of God, who sees what we are. knows our innermost thoughts.
When we choose life, as God gave us the free will to do, then God acts according to our free willed choice, and by holy spirit draws us. Deuteronomy 30:19; Deuteronomy 28:15

Opposers of free will are fighting a losing battle, here, and it's obvious that will always be the case, because the word of God is impossible to contend with, and come off the winner.

This is a bunch of human reasoning, worthless.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The only choices you make are the ones God ordained for you to make when He made a choice for you to take your next breath.

ok, so what?