Communism- Socialism

[durangodawood]

Maybe, just maybe, if there is massive corruption on both the employee and employer side, there is something inherently wrong with the whole wage labor system. :thinking:

Concentrations of power are obvious targets for parasites. Vigilance is needed.

 

[Fervent]

A big one I didnt hit, which the marketplace seems to serve poorly, is health care. At least for basics.

Health care is poorly served precisely because it's not a free market, it's a captive market. There is strong information disparity and buyers are pretty much stuck with whoever they can get care from in most cases.

 

[Hentenza]

Seems like youve been trying to disparage the idea of labor unions in principle by pointing out instances of corruption.

Not just instances. The corruption is rampant.

But that argument is significantly blunted when we realize how much corruption has occured on the corporate side. Corruption becomes just this thing we have to look out for in human

Not really. I consider the unions to be more corrupted than corporations. After all, unions are corporations.

 

[Fervent]

Not really. I consider the unions to be more corrupted than corporations. After all, unions are corporations.

And how did you arrive at that conclusion? How does unions being a type of corporation increase their corruption, and what metrics are you using to measure corruption in each? Personally, I suspect your aversion to union corruption is because they are ostensibly supposed to be for workers, whereas you give corporations a pass because being self-serving bags of greed is expected of them.

 

[Hentenza]

And how did you arrive at that conclusion? How does unions being a type of corporation increase their corruption, and what metrics are you using to measure corruption in each?

I posted two articles earlier. Read them.

 

[durangodawood]

Not just instances. The corruption is rampant.

So be vigilant.

People still need to coordinate bargaining power to get on a equal footing with corporations for proper discovery of the value of labor.

 

[Hentenza]

So be vigilant.

People still need to coordinate bargaining power to get on an equal footing with corporations for proper discovery of the value of labor.

I don’t agree. The value of labor per position is based on the area salary level for the same position.

 

[durangodawood]

I don’t agree. The value of labor per position is based on the area salary level for the same position.

Thats the price. Not the value.

 

[Hentenza]

Thats the price. Not the value.

To me it is the same.

 

[durangodawood]

To me it is the same.

Well no one can argue with that.

 

[Hentenza]

Well no one can argue with that.

I’m sure you were going to argue how a carpenter, for example, earns 25 per hour in an area where 25 per hour is the average but someone thinks that they should be making 30 per hour. The value then would be under but that is bunk anyway.

 

[durangodawood]

To me it is the same.

Curious. if you dont mind, what communist country did you live in? For my part Im very anti state-communist. (Im fine with people doing voluntary communist type arrangements).

 

[Fervent]

To me it is the same.

Value is more than just the price that the worker can secure, as with any other good the buyer is going to try to get it at the lowest possible price. The value is the combination of price+profit provided to the company. Workers will never get the full value of their labor, as employers wouldn't hire someone whose labor they couldn't profit off of. But bridging the power gap allows workers to get fuller value for their labor.

 

[durangodawood]

I’m sure you were going to argue how a carpenter, for example, earns 25 per hour in an area where 25 per hour is the average but someone thinks that they should be making 30 per hour. The value then would be under but that is bunk anyway.

Well thats not what I was going to argue.

 

[Hentenza]

Well thats not what I was going to argue.

Ok then

 

[Hentenza]

Value is more than just the price that the worker can secure, as with any other good the buyer is going to try to get it at the lowest possible price. The value is the combination of price+profit provided to the company. Workers will never get the full value of their labor, as employers wouldn't hire someone whose labor they couldn't profit off of. But bridging the power gap allows workers to get fuller value for

Companies offer salaries that are commensurate to the area where they are and based on experience. Companies can make a profit at that level without having to increase the price of their product in order to be profitable. If companies are not profitable then why should they exist. Where would you buy your product from?

 

[Fervent]

Companies offer salaries that are commensurate to the area where they are and based on experience. Companies can make a profit at that level without having to increase the price of their product in order to be profitable. If companies are not profitable then why should they exist. Where would you buy your product from?

Companies have raised their prices without commensurate compensation to their employees. You seem to recognize a companies right to maximize their profit, but why are you opposed to laborers maximizing their return on their labor? Why are companies more entitled to profit than the people providing the labor?

 

[Hentenza]

Companies have raised their prices without commensurate compensation to their employees. You seem to recognize a companies right to maximize their profit, but why are you opposed to laborers maximizing their return on their labor? Why are companies more entitled to profit than the people providing the labor?

Every company after Covid have raised their prices including all companies from small to large. I don’t like it. Some companies are probably taking advantage of it but others are just trying to recuperate from the banging they got under Covid.

Labor had also come up quite a bit particularly in the construction and automotive sector. Insurance, for example, had increased dramatically because of what it now costs to rebuild a house or repair a car. It’s obscene. Home contractors are making a killing.

 

[Fervent]

Every company after Covid have raised their prices including all companies from small to large. I don’t like it. Some companies are probably taking advantage of it but others are just trying to recuperate from the banging they got under Covid.

Most are taking advantage, especially those that are under major corporations. Which is why everytime prices increase the companies post record profits.

Labor had also come up quite a bit particularly in the construction and automotive sector. Insurance, for example, had increased dramatically because of what it now costs to rebuild a house or repair a car. It’s obscene. Home contractors are making a killing.

Contractors maybe, but they are business owners. Mechanics and construction workers haven't really seen much by the way of wage increases since the 80s, not even nominal wage increases to keep up with ordinary inflation. Shops and contractors charge more, and take a bigger piece of the pie home because they are able to take advantage of their labor pool.

 

[Hentenza]

Most are taking advantage, especially those that are under major corporations. Which is why everytime prices increase the companies post record profits.

I don’t think you can quantify “most”. I can agree to some.

Contractors maybe, but they are business owners. Mechanics and construction workers haven't really seen much by the way of wage increases since the 80s, not even nominal wage increases to keep up with ordinary inflation. Shops and contractors charge more, and take a bigger piece of the pie home because they are able to take advantage of their labor pool.

Well, car mechanic work has also changed substantially. Newer cars just about diagnose themselves so they are relegated to part changers. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.