Why did God choose Israel?

[SabbathBlessings]

The position that Judas was a devil isn't a solid position

All of Israel are taught to be God's children inclusive of Judas and even all the religious leaders.

The most obvious conclusion is Mark 4:15 happened to them all, and still does

I'd even say John had a misread. When Jesus said one of you is a devil it would apply to all of them, not just Judas

And Judas or people are not devils

When Jesus said one is a devil He was referring to one individual not all of the 12 and than He said who that person was, the one who betrayed Him for money.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.


I believe when Jesus said He was a devil, He was not saying literally, but was under the influence of Satan. We are told whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 and there are only two choices Mat 12:30 many can be serving another god and not even realize it. I believe most who are of Satan's seed do not realize it. Much like the Pharisees and scribes who thought they were men of God when Jesus said otherwise John 8:44 and they ended up crucifying God’s only Son.

This is the Greek meaning of the word Jesus used for devil

διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

under the influence of Satan

Well at least you managed to get the other party who was not Judas on the table for viewing

When Jesus said one of you is a devil, then most obviously Jesus was speaking of Satan, the devil

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well at least you managed to get the other party who was not Judas on the table for viewing

When Jesus said one of you is a devil, then most obviously Jesus was speaking of Satan, the devil

He said Judas, who was under the influence of the devil. Luke 22:3

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

He said Judas, who was under the influence of the devil. Luke 22:3

You see Judas

I see Judas and Satan who entered Judas

Pick which one is the devil

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You see Judas

I see Judas and Satan who entered Judas

Pick which one is the devil

Scripture doesn't work that way, its not what we want it to say, it what the Scriptures actually says, in this case Jesus Christ, clearly.


Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

I am not one to argue against the Scriptures, especially when its Jesus own Testimony.

Judas was under the influence of Satan Luke 22:3 but he was not the devil himself, if we are under the influence of Satan we are a devil, not that we are the devil.

Guess will will have to agree to disagree

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Scripture doesn't work that way, its not what we want it to say, it what the Scriptures actually says, in this case Jesus Christ, clearly.


Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

I am not one to argue against the Scriptures, especially when its Jesus own Testimony.

Judas was under the influence of Satan Luke 22:3 but he was not the devil himself, if we are under the influence of Satan we are a devil, not that we are the devil.

Guess will will have to agree to disagree

Obviously scripture also says Satan entered Judas.

Why ignore that fact at the expense of Judas only?

Do you think yourself a better sinner than Judas?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Obviously scripture also says Satan entered Judas.

Why ignore that fact at the expense of Judas only?

Do you think yourself a better sinner than Judas?

I quoted that Scripture twice, so not sure how that equates to ignoring it.

 

[Aseyesee]

The position that Judas was a devil isn't a solid position

All of Israel are taught to be God's children inclusive of Judas and even all the religious leaders.

The most obvious conclusion is Mark 4:15 happened to them all, and still does

I'd even say John had a misread. When Jesus said one of you is a devil it would apply to all of them, not just Judas

And Judas or people are not devils

One of the twelve was a serpent in the path (who also was one of two that had the wisdom to build the tabernacle ... a pattern viewed from a different place but all to the same end of revealing the son we are in us ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I quoted that Scripture twice, so not sure how that equates to ignoring it.

Not sure how you're mistaking people for devils. You do understand that's a heretical position?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

One of the twelve was a serpent in the path (who also was one of two that had the wisdom to build the tabernacle ... a pattern viewed from a different place but all to the same end of revealing the son we are in us ...

You're missing the 13th party

Satan entered Judas.

Doesn't make them the same.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not sure how you're mistaking people for devils.

Are you claiming Jesus was mistaken when He named who He was speaking of?

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
Joh 6:71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

You do understand that's a heretical position?

You are claiming Jesus who spoke of Judas was in a heretical position. Do you really hear what you're saying? Who do you think one is under the influence when someone murders another person. Do you really think that's under the influence of the Holy Spirit? God said thou shalt not murder, so what is doing the opposite of what God said, that's not coming from Him. There are only two options of whose influence we are under. If its not that of God, is that of the devil. Its that simple.

The Scriptures say the devil entered Judas, not the the devil was Judas, I hope you can understand the difference. We too can let the devil in or be influenced by him when we go away from God's Word and start adding our own words in Scripture, which we are warned not to Pro 30:5-6

 

[Aseyesee]

You're missing the 13th party

Satan entered Judas.

Doesn't make them the same.

“I'd even say John had a misread. When Jesus said one of you is a devil it would apply to all of them, not just Judas”

Then I should I assume you believe every telling of this story has been misquoted … Mark leaves out Satan and a devil out of his telling, as well as Mathew, and Jesus was a little late saying Judas would betray him (according to Mathew, and Mark) if you believe John’s telling) who already had at that point … which leaves John’s telling (though Luke portrayed the time frame more like Mark’s) a little bit behind the curve as well as to when Satan entered him …

I don’t believe I have actually known anybody who thinks that Judas was a devil, but I do believe Jesus needed an adversary (much like God became to Israel when he wanted to judge them) in order to fulfill the building of God’s tabernacle (as God did, which pattern Jesus followed), and choose (as God) Judas to this end (which is the point with the tribe of Dan and the building of the tabernacle) … but it is all about the seed, which is the same truth of the kingdom in us (tares and wheat, and who does the sowing). If you are a seed of a serpent then you are a serpent, just as if you are the seed of Abraham, then are you Christ … but of course these are analogies and not a carnal or literal representation no more than the picking up of your cross is.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Are you claiming Jesus was mistaken when He named who He was speaking of?

Jesus didn't state it, John did. And John did not deny or ignore Satan entering Judas like your position is attempting to do

In any case of sights positions that make people devils are heresy

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Then I should I assume you believe every telling of this story has been misquoted

Not at all. Satan did enter Judas. John's statement doesn't deny that fact

Positions that only see Judas and not Satan are obviously blind to the fact

I believe God did choose Judas to have Satan enter him to do Satan's deed. But of course that was all divinely orchestrated in any case

All have sin. Romans 3:9

Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

None of us are any better than Judas in this regard

 

[Fervent]

Do you know what the name "Israel" means? It's right there in it, because it means "contends with God." God chose a people for their willingness to engage with Him and struggle with Him until they got their blessing. God named His people after their willingness to wrestle with Him, so why do we now so often assume that God wants complacent people?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus didn't state it, John did. And John did not deny or ignore Satan entering Judas like your position is attempting to do

In any case of sights positions that make people devils are heresy

John quoted Jesus who stated it plainly. John was there, we weren't and the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Aseyesee]

Not at all. Satan did enter Judas. John's statement doesn't deny that fact

Positions that only see Judas and not Satan are obviously blind to the fact

I believe God did choose Judas to have Satan enter him to do Satan's deed. But of course that was all divinely orchestrated in any case

All have sin. Romans 3:9

Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8

None of us are any better than Judas in this regard

... or any less ... Your footsteps become ordered (divinely orchestrated) to you when you believe that they are ...

Neither Matthew or Mark’s words (in their telling) reflect a devil in the process …

If God had not said we would have had no sin ... but because you say I see (who told you) therefore your sin remains ...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

But God did not choose Israel because they're such wonderful obedient people.

We must remember that the Pentateuch is Israel's story. Of course, they are the "chosen people".

Do we dare to take a step back and look a little more objectively at it? Their story is one among others. Their culture and history, one among others. They are chosen in the sense that the Messiah, the incarnate Word of God comes into the world as one of them. But they are not more moral nor more just than any other nation. We have no obligation to support them in their unjust actions.

 

[ralliann]

So, first a disclaimer. I do love Israel, out of them came our savior, and because God supports them, I do too.

But God did not choose Israel because they're such wonderful obedient people. In fact, history has shown quite the opposite. Throughout the Old Testament there's the pattern of Israel doubting God, striving against God (in fact, Israel's very name means "one who strives against God" because Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis). God repeatedly chastised them and even cursed them, put them in captivity, released them, they killed His Son, He scattered them, then gathered them back. He repeatedly refers to them as a stiff necked people (Exodus 32-34, Deuteronomy 9, etc), stubborn and rebellious. Yes, Abraham was justified by having faith in God in the first place and that faith was counted for righteousness, and was obedient even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his miraculously born son Isaac.

But that one example, followed by a deliberately stiffnecked, willful, and rebellious people.

Is it possible that God did not choose them because they're such wonderful people but because they represent what can be the worst of us as people, to magnify His grace by showing He can do something wonderful with the worst rebels?

I got on this line of thinking after hearing a Jewish man talk about eschatology in a podcast. Where, if a prophecy from God is good... then it's for sure going to happen, but if it's bad, well then, that's something they have to bargain with God about. I was kinda gobstopped. This idea that God pronounces judgement and a Jew's response is.. strive against God, bargain with Him, try to change His mind.

To me that just seems nonsensical, it's the Lord right? We can't bargain with the Lord and change His mind!

But then he went on to explain. Noah, represents the Gentiles, God said there's judgement, build an ark, and Noah built the ark and did what the Lord said, everyone but 8 people perished. God said He would destroy Sodom.... and Abraham bargained with God. There it was from the beginning of the Hebrews, Abraham striving against God, trying to change God's mind... God actually kinda acquiesced to it, but never found the 10 righteous people in Sodom to prevent its destruction.

Peter also is an example of this. When Jesus explains He'll be killed in Matthew 16, Peter tries to rebuke Jesus. This is just after Peter had confessed the Jesus is the Son of God! So Peter... knowingly tried to rebuke and bargain with God! Peter was not only given grace for that, but even had leadership among the apostles!

It's really rather astounding that God has responded to people trying to bargain with Him with just.. more grace, and even favor.

Of course then there's Jonah who was definitely worse for wear trying to defy God.. but .. Jonah's still a prophet, still cited by Jesus as such.

so what do you think? Why did God choose stiffnecked, rebellious people who try to rebuke Him and bargain with Him?

I think he did it to cause God's grace to abound. The promises made to their Fathers in the covenant of circumcision cannot be disannulled by the Sinai covenant law. God swore an oath.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

John quoted Jesus who stated it plainly. John was there, we weren't and the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

What are you disagreeing with?

That people are not devils?

Feel free to clarify