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All about circumcision

JohnClay

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
What Paul was correcting was the Jews using circumcision as a means of salvation, meaning they could save themselves apart from Christ Acts 15:1 , but that was never the role of circumcision. There are many health benefits to being circumcised, but in doing so one is not going to be saved. We all need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and we are all saved by grace through faith. I do think a lot of people emphasis the grace part instead of the faith part and what both of these things mean according to the Scriptures.

God bless!
 
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CoreyD

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
Hello John.
To be circumcised or not, is a personal choice.
However, it was required by God that his people be circumcised.
Though it's not directly stated, circumcision seemed to serve as a sign that made God's people distinct from the nations around them.
Other than that, only God can give the reason.
However, God's people trust that his purpose is always beneficial.

It is good that you ask questions, even though the answers may not always be satisfactory, or an answer may not be given.
It shows you are a thinking person.
If I were an Israelite, back in ancient times, lots of things would have been difficult... like going up against an army of a million valiant warriors, who paste their enemies to walls, and cut off their nose, or pluck their eyes out, but faith in God, was required, and that's what got the Israelites success.

Faith isn't something that's possessed by everyone, and it doesn't come easy, either.
So, I can understand your "curiosity".
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
Also if interested in the role of circumcision in the Scriptures, I have been studying more of it and happy to share my understanding of the role of circumcision in the OT and NT

When Adam and Eve sinned God put enmity between the devil and his seed (his people) and her Seed (God's people)

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

God separated His people out of the bondage of the devil and called them the nation of Israel.

Lev 20:24 But I have said to you, "You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples.
1Ki 8:53 For You separated them from among all the peoples of the earth to be Your inheritance, as You spoke by Your servant Moses, when You brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD."

Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12. God's law is the description of sin Rom 7:7

In the OT the prescription for sin when breaking God's law was animal sacrifices

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

The gentiles or foreigners did not have access to the cure for sin unless they were circumcised as an adult- ouch

Exo 12:43 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it.
Exo 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

So foreigners who sinned could not gain access to the system of the cure for sin unless they were circumcised. They would often have to travel far to get to the temple.

When Jesus died on the Cross He removed that enmity between the devil's seed and His Seed.

The veil of the earthy temple tore in 70AD which signified that this old system of the prescription of sin ended.
Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

He took that old system for the prescription of sin and nailed it to the Cross. Jesus in dying for our sins became our circumcision.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So we have a new system for sin because the old one never really took away sins, it was always a placeholder for Jesus Christ

Heb 9:10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Circumcision is no longer of the flesh but that of the heart and being a new creation in Christ-

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.


Sin is still the same as it was in the Old Testament. It is still sin to murder, covet, vain God's name, worshipping other gods or break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:11-12

Why Paul said
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The difference in the New Covenant is how we go about the prescription for sins. No longer an animal sacrifice Heb 10:1-22 Heb 9:10-15 no longer at the temple of Jerusalem no longer required to get physical circumcised now everyone has access to the cure for sin which is Jesus Christ who became our Passover Lamb 1 Cor 5:7

Jesus made our bodies a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit Eph 2:22 if we have not harden our hearts to sin and rebellion. Heb 3:7-8 and kept that enmity between us and God by rebelling against God's law Rom 8:7-8. When we sin, which God's law is the description of sin Exo 20:1-17 James 2:11-12 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 we can go directly to Jesus in prayer when we are really sorry and repent and through His Spirit He can help us overcome temptation and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 1 John 1:9 and help us keep His commandments 14:15-18 why He preached repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand
 
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Tuur

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
In Paul's day, some made the argument that salvation was for the Jews, therefore to be saved, one first had to become a Jew. Peter's experience with the centurion in Acts is a strong no, and he referenced it in Acts 11. Acts 15 relates the discussion of the early church on this issue. Acts 15:5 tells exactly what was going on that led to the council meeting.

As Acts 15:5 notes, what this faction insisted on was circumcision and keeping the Law of Moses. Circumcision was/is a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants. What's going on here is the insistence by some that gentiles had to become Jews before they could be saved. This is what is meant by the term Judaizer in the New Testament.

Both Paul and Peter strongly argued against the idea because salvation is of Christ and what He has done and not by keeping the Law. Paul explained that one who would become a Jew was obligated to keep the entire law and not just circumcision (Galatians 5:3). Their argument wasn't marketing but the nature of salvation itself. Paul warned the Galatians against trusting in keeping the Law and not Christ.

Now, one can be circumcised for reasons having nothing to do with Judaism. Muslims practice circumcision but do not keep the Mosaic Law. Someone can the circumcised for medical reasons, and this is why it was at one time advocated in the West. Neither are an attempt to follow Judaism. The Law commands all Jewish males to be circumcised, but not everyone who is circumcised is Jewish or has done so in order to keep Jewish Law.

What it means for Christians is that all can be saved, Jew and Gentile. Gentiles are not required to become Jews in order to come to Christ.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Apparently circumcision started with Abraham and is part of Abrahamic religions like Judaism and Islam.

It also can be a part of Christianity such as part of my Australian Lutheran heritage.

I guess it can be an inappropriate topic even though apparently the creator of the universe commanded it.

Then Paul was saying that it is no longer necessary - perhaps so that more gentiles would want to convert to Christianity.

I sometimes get curious and want to ask people I know whether they are circumcised but usually I don't ask them - sometimes I have but then I had forgotten what their answer was and don't end up asking them again.

So anyway it is part of the Bible and I was curious about what Christians think about it.
I recall Paul saying something controversial about it.

What I think about it, is some people tend to be obsessed over the wrong things.

It was true back then, it is true today.
 
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JohnClay

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Circumcision was/is a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants.
You mean the male descendants. Though some people do female circumcision ("female genital mutilation")
 
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CoreyD

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Normally these days it is a choice of your parents - like in my case.
The choice of one's parents has always been the case... in some cases, unfortunately.
Parents decide what hairstyle, and clothing their child wears; what school they go to... and if a girl, if their ears will be pierced...
Depending on the parent a child has, it can go to extremes.

In New York, it is illegal for anyone to mark the body of a child less than eighteen years old with indelible ink or pigments by means of tattooing. Additionally, there are concerns about the safety and permanence of tattoos for minors, as well as the potential for regret later in life. Despite these concerns, some parents believe that allowing their children to get tattoos can be a form of self-expression and a way to support their individuality.

Some parents consider the benefits of circumcision.
Others may do it for religious reasons.
In either case, we have to live with our parents' decisions on our early life... and that includes child abuse.

Sadly, many find it hard to deal with such decisions later in life.
Some learn to adjust with positive thinking.

For me, the Bible helps me cope with the negatives.
If I found myself in any of these situations, my confidence would be in God's promise of the life that really is life 1 Timothy 6:19, where all things will be new, and the former things will be a thing of the past, and shall not be remembered or come into mind. Revelation 21:4; Isaiah 65:17

For some girls in Africa, there are many rituals that leave them "scarred" for life.
Somehow, we humans tend to pull through the worst.
Hope is truly an anchor.
 
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DragonFox91

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In addition to what's been discussed, Christianity went away from it b/c you being saved isn't based on your heritage. You can't claim you're saved on the basis of your parents, nor can your parents claim you're saved on the basis of them being saved. This is a really hard concept for people still today but I think the Bible is clear on it's teaching in that. People thought circumcision was a sign of heritage saving you, God says, no, it's actually not based on heritage, & he even said that back in the OT
 
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JohnClay

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BTW I found some statistics:
% of men who are circumcised:
Israel 91.7%
South Korea 77%
United States 71.2%
South Africa 44.7%
Canada 31.9%
Hong Kong 28%
Australia 26.6%
United Kingdom 20.7%
China 14%
France 14%
Russia 11.8%
Japan 9%
Brazil 1.3%
Iceland 0.1%

Muslim countries are usually almost fully circumcised.
 
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CoreyD

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BTW I found some statistics:
% of men who are circumcised:
Israel 91.7%
South Korea 77%
United States 71.2%
South Africa 44.7%
Canada 31.9%
Hong Kong 28%
Australia 26.6%
United Kingdom 20.7%
China 14%
France 14%
Russia 11.8%
Japan 9%
Brazil 1.3%
Iceland 0.1%
United States 71.2% :openmouth:
Surprised me there. I wonder why... if people heard of the health benefits, or there was another reason.
It could be that men decided to get circumcised, because they heard that doing so reduces their risk of genital herpes and certain strains of human papillomavirus by 30 percent or more, and they thought that would protect them in their promiscuous lifestyle.
Or, maybe this was their top reason... The CDC also notes that male circumcision is an important preventive strategy in lifelong partial protection against heterosexually acquired HIV infection among males.

Muslim countries are usually almost fully circumcised.
Religious purposes, no doubt... and yes, you are correct - 90-100% Muslims.

Male circumcision is a widespread practice among Muslims, although it is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. Instead, it is based on the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad, known as the sunnah. The practice is considered an important ritual for cleanliness, purification, and following the example of the Prophet.

In many Muslim-majority countries, the rate of circumcision is very high, often between 90 and 100 percent. The procedure is typically performed for religious reasons, and it is seen as a sign of belonging to the Muslim community.

While some Islamic scholars consider circumcision mandatory (wājib), others view it as highly recommended (sunnah). The timing of the procedure can vary, with some boys being circumcised shortly after birth and others at a later age, sometimes around six to seven years old.

Circumcision is also practiced for medical reasons, such as preventing urinary tract infections and reducing the risk of certain diseases.
However, the primary motivation for Muslims is religious, rooted in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad.

They don't circumcise according to the timing God stipulated for his people, which is the eighth day..

The practice of circumcising a male child on the 8th day is linked to blood clotting mechanisms. According to various sources, the level of vitamin K, which plays a pivotal role in blood clotting, peaks in a newborn on the 8th day of life. This is significant because vitamin K is essential for the formation of clotting factors, and without sufficient levels, a baby could bleed to death if circumcised too early.

Medical science has noted that the blood-clotting factor, prothrombin, reaches its highest level on the 8th day, making it the optimal time for the procedure.
While modern medical practices often administer vitamin K to newborns shortly after birth to prevent bleeding, the biblical tradition of performing circumcision on the 8th day aligns with this natural peak in clotting factors.

I find this interesting, since it's only recent that modern science became aware of the level of the clotting factors on the eighth day. Whereas, an ancient book that people tend to be critical of, and think it's not practical for our day, had the timing on cutting a baby, so perfectly aligned.
That's no coincidence. To me, that's a significant testimony to divine guidance.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
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JohnClay

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Then there's this:
1 Samuel 18:25-27
Saul replied, “Say to David, ‘The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.’” Saul’s plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.
When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king’s son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed, David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.
 
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JohnClay

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I find this interesting, since it's only recent that modern science became aware of the level of the clotting factors on the eighth day. Whereas, an ancient book that people tend to be critical of, and think it's not practical for our day, had the timing on cutting a baby, so perfectly aligned.

That's no coincidence. To me, that's a significant testimony to divine guidance.

What are your thoughts on this?
I think the Bible is an interesting collection of very different things - like those insightful verses about circumcision after 8 days then what seems to be genocide in Deuteronomy 20:16-18 and vulgar parts like Ezekiel 23:20 (both of which I'm making a game about). I haven't read it cover to cover and still find new interesting things from time to time. I think it's good that people faithfully pass the Bible text down rather than removing the parts that seem problematic.
 
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ralliann

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What Paul was correcting was the Jews using circumcision as a means of salvation, meaning they could save themselves apart from Christ Acts 15:1 , but that was never the role of circumcision.
Paul was concerned about the law as a means of Salvation. Adult circumcision indebted law keeping. Circumcision was a distinct covenant before the law...It concerned the firstborn by choice.
There are many health benefits to being circumcised, but in doing so one is not going to be saved.
Adult circumcision indebts one to keep the WHOLE LAW.
We all need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and we are all saved by grace through faith. I do think a lot of people emphasis the grace part instead of the faith part and what both of these things mean according to the Scriptures.

God bless!
Circumcision among Jew's is by the fathers. It is a sign and a seal of Abraham's faith. The carnal command was disannulled in the new covenant to bring in non Jew's.
 
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ralliann

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Normally these days it is a choice of your parents - like in my case.

So it has always been.
Precedence....
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Gentiles do not need to become a JEW, in the new covenant. It denies the promise to Abraham as a father to many nations. Which denies the gospel preached to the nations.
 
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Fervent

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Circumcision is what's known as a sign-act, its significance in the old covenant was that it was the formal adoption into the community of the faithful. Today, while it remains as a vestigial issue it is largely irrelevant as far as holding remaining significance. It has been replaced with baptism as the entrance into the community, which has its own contentious issues.
 
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ralliann

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Circumcision is what's known as a sign-act, its significance in the old covenant was that it was the formal adoption into the community of the faithful. Today, while it remains as a vestigial issue it is largely irrelevant as far as holding remaining significance. It has been replaced with baptism as the entrance into the community, which has its own contentious issues.
It was becoming an Israelite (JEW). Marrying into a tribe and begetting/bearing children into that tribe.
In the new covenant we Gentiles enter into the promise made to Abraham, a father of many nations.
The historic Church did use infant baptism with circumcision. But that is because of their relationship to their Christian parents/parenting.
 
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Fervent

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It was becoming an Israelite (JEW). Marrying into a tribe and begetting/bearing children into that tribe.
The historic Church did use infant baptism with circumcision. But that is because of their relationship to their Christian parents/parenting.
Yeah, it was about becoming a member of the covenant community. And baptism is about joining the community of Christian believers, not just in the ancient church but in modern churches as well. Though as I said, it has its own contentious issues that people obsess over and cause division over.
 
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ralliann

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Yeah, it was about becoming a member of the covenant community.
Which was to become a JEW.
And baptism is about joining the community of Christian believers, not just in the ancient church but in modern churches as well.
It was the ancient Church which associated it to circumcision in infant baptism.
Though as I said, it has its own contentious issues that people obsess over and cause division over.
Well yes, lots of Churches do not baptize infants.
The new testament Gospel to the Gentiles fulfills the promise to Abraham , in the Gentiles.
 
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