Does man have a freewill ?

[Clare73]

I guess you got it wrong again. You continually misunderstand scripture. You think being dead in sins means we have no ability to make the right moral choices, which is completely wrong. And you ignore that Jesus said sinners are sick, not dead (Mark 2:16-17). And you think being a slave to sin means we have no ability to repent of our sin and believe in Christ, which is not what that means at all. Why do you accept Jesus saying that man is a slave to sin, but ignore that He also said that sinners are sick (Mark 2:16-17)? Sick people are able to acknowledge that they are sick and can't heal themselves and need the physician (Jesus) to heal them.

Previously addressed (post #108).

 

[BBAS 64]

I’m confused. Did God decree that the Israelites would backslide or not. Thanks for your politeness.

Good day,

I really did not address that question so let me do so.

Did God know they would... Yes
Could they have done other wise than what God knew.... NO
Could God if he chose stopped them from backsliding.... Yes
Was it Necessary in the plan of God for them to back slide... Yes

Was it a decree irrelevant in my mind.

Now if I may ask a couple questions.

Is backsliding sin?
Does sin serve God's purposes?
Did God decree that His Son would die for sinners?
Is sin a necessary to fulfill the decree of God?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrte your assertion.

That's what I've been doing, but you use your free will to choose to ignore the scriptures I'm using to demonstrate my assertion.

There's more to the NT word of God than just the gospels.

Of course. Did I say otherwise? You need to explain why you think God decrees people to commit rapes and murders and other sins when at the same time He hates those things and punishes people who never repent of their sins.

 

[Clare73]

That's what I've been doing, but you use your free will to choose to ignore the scriptures I'm using to demonstrate my assertion.


Of course. Did I say otherwise? You need to explain why you think God decrees people to commit rapes and murders and other sins when at the same time He hates those things and punishes people who never repent of their sins.

Give Ro 9:22-23 some thought.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Previously addressed (post #108).

Is that all you have? I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously at this point. You make minimal effort to back up your doctrine and you refuse to acknowledge and address at least half of my arguments.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Give Ro 9:22-23 some thought.

I have given it plenty of thought. See my post #324.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Good day,

I really did not address that question so let me do so.

Did God know they would... Yes
Could they have done other wise than what God knew.... NO
Could God if he chose stopped them from backsliding.... Yes
Was it Necessary in the plan of God for them to back slide... Yes

Was it a decree irrelevant in my mind.

Now if I may ask a couple questions.

Is backsliding sin?
Does sin serve God's purposes?
Did God decree that His Son would die for sinners?
Is sin a necessary to fulfill the decree of God?

In Him,

Bill

When God had the city of Jerusalem and its temple buildings, along with many unbelieving Jews, destroyed in 70 AD, is that what God planned all along for His purposes or did He do that as punishment because of the Jews willingly choosing to reject His Son (not all of them did, but most)?

Clearly, it's not what He wanted to happen, as evidenced by what Jesus said here:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

And here:

Luke 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

God does not decree sin, He punishes sin.

 

[Jerry N.]

Good day,

I really did not address that question so let me do so.

Did God know they would... Yes
Could they have done other wise than what God knew.... NO
Could God if he chose stopped them from backsliding.... Yes
Was it Necessary in the plan of God for them to back slide... Yes

Was it a decree irrelevant in my mind.

Now if I may ask a couple questions.

Is backsliding sin?
Does sin serve God's purposes?
Did God decree that His Son would die for sinners?
Is sin a necessary to fulfill the decree of God?

In Him,

Bill

I have trouble using the quote function, so I will do it the old fashioned way.

“Did God know they would... Yes”

I agree.

“Could they have done other wise than what God knew.... NO”

God knew what they would do, but they could have done otherwise.

“Could God if he chose stopped them from backsliding.... Yes”

I agree, but it would not be in God’s nature.

“Was it Necessary in the plan of God for them to back slide... Yes”

I disagree, but God had it covered both ways.

“Was it a decree irrelevant in my mind.”

I don’t know your mind.

Now if I may ask a couple questions.

“Is backsliding sin?”

Yes.

“Does sin serve God's purposes?”

God can make any situation serve His purpose.

“Did God decree that His Son would die for sinners?”

Yes, but one has to take into account that Christ chose to die for us.

“Is sin a necessary to fulfill the decree of God?”

No, if Adam and Eve did not sin, everything would have been different.

This is very interesting and has opened a new channel of thought. Thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

Thanks for your reply. I don’t think God ever decrees humans to sin. I’m not sure about the testing of Job, but I think it is more like decreeing that a wolf will kill a deer. There are many verses. I’ll pick Isaiah 45:1-25 and Isaiah 41:4.

Thanks for your response.
Regarding Job, the Bible shows God pointed to the man Job, as an example of godly integrity, amidst a crooked generation.
God said, there was no one like Job, on the earth at that time, so everyone else was "doing their own thing"... including Job's wife. Job 1:1-8

Satan challenged that Job's service was selfish, and was not out of love for God, but rather, for what he got out of God.
God allowed Satan to prove that claim, by allowing Job... like Jesus, to be opened to severe trials. Job 1:9-2:6

Both Job, and Jesus, proved Satan's claims to be false - a lie, and this was God's objective... to prove Satan a liar, before all the heavenly host.
It is like evidence presented in court that proves the accuser guilty, and therefore judged, and condemned as the liar.

This evidence answers one of Satan's challenges... that man serves God, only for what he gets, and not out of love.
We too, have the opportunity to prove Satan a liar, and give God the opportunity of having witnesses on his side, and giving an answer to Satan. Proverbs 27:11

I'm a bit uncertain as to why you gave me those scriptures in Isaiah.
Are these your basis for believing that God knew Adam would sin?
If so, can you please state what exactly in those scriptures says or implies to you that God knew Adam would sin. Thanks.

 

[CoreyD]

If all men are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), spiritually powerless to believe (Jn 3:3-5), is it unfair that salvation is only by faith?

Are you dead in trespasses and sin, Clare?
Then you are in a very bad position.
Not all men are. Ephesians 2:1

 

[Clare73]

Are you dead in trespasses and sin, Clare?
Then you are in a very bad position.
Not all men are. Ephesians 2:1

All unregenerate mankind is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).

 

[CoreyD]

But they must believe to be saved from that damnation, and they are powerless to believe, they do not even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
They must be born again of the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to be able to even see the kingdom of God and believe.

John the Baptist was not born again. Yet Jesus said, "among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist." Matthew 11:11
All one needs to do, is what Jesus said, and what his followers taught... exercise, or have faith.
Luke 7:50; John 3:16-18; Romans 10:5-15

 

[CoreyD]

All unregenerate mankind is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).

What's an "unregenerate mankind"?
Are you "unregenerate mankind"?

 

[Clare73]

John the Baptist was not born again.

How do you know?

Why do you think he leaped in his mother's womb in the presence of the pregnant Mary?

Yet Jesus said, "among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist." Matthew 11:11
All one needs to do, is what Jesus said, and what his followers taught... exercise, or have faith.
Luke 7:50; John 3:16-18; Romans 10:5-15

 

[Clare73]

What's an "unregenerate mankind"?
Are you "unregenerate mankind"?

"Regenerate" is rebirth of the human spirit from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life.

All those not spiritually born again of the Holy Spirit are unregenerate.

I am born again.

 

[HBP]

Does anyone on the planet actually live as though they DON'T think they have free will? Of course not. Even atheists who insist consciousness and free will are illusory, merely products of the brain, don't live as though they really believe this.

We are all heavily the product of genetics, nurture, cultural conditioning and circumstances, but within this context we certainly have free will.

Free will as a theological issue is mostly a discussion that goes nowhere. No one really lives as though they believe Calvinism is true any more than atheists live as though they believe free will is illusory. Compatibilism says free will is compatible with God's foreknowledge, but God's foreknowledge is itself a non-essential doctrine. Libertarianism is more plausible, but I go beyond this and lean toward process (open) theology.

In process theology, God created humans with genuine free will. God in fact does not have foreknowledge of the decisions we will make and the actions we will take. God participates in creation with us.

No one "must" believe in process theology any more than one "must" believe in Calvinism, but to me it makes far more sense than any other understanding of free will, from both God's perspective and ours.

 

[Clare73]

Does anyone on the planet actually live as though they DON'T think they have free will? Of course not. Even atheists who insist consciousness and free will are illusory, merely products of the brain, don't live as though they really believe this.

We are all heavily the product of genetics, nurture, cultural conditioning and circumstances, but within this context we certainly have free will.

Free will as a theological issue is mostly a discussion that goes nowhere. No one really lives as though they believe Calvinism is true

Does Calvinism posit "free will."

any more than atheists live as though they believe free will is illusory. Compatibilism says free will is compatible with God's foreknowledge, but God's foreknowledge is itself a non-essential doctrine. Libertarianism is more plausible, but I go beyond this and lean toward process (open) theology.

In process theology, God created humans with genuine free will.

Genuine free will = power to make all moral choices, including sinlessness.

Which power was marred in the fall, and is now limited to choosing what one prefers.

Prior to the fall, Adam could choose to be sinless.
We no longer have the power (will) to make that choice.
Our free will is partial, we now choose what we prefer, and radical sinlessness is not what we prefer.
We like our sin. . .until we are born again.

God in fact does not have foreknowledge of the decisions we will make and the actions we will take. God participates in creation with us.

No one "must" believe in process theology any more than one "must" believe in Calvinism, but to me it makes far more sense than any other understanding of free will, from both God's perspective and ours.

 

[CoreyD]

How do you know?

How do I know that John the Baptist was not born again?
Who baptized John in water, and when was John anointed in holy spirit, like Jesus and his followers were?
Also, where in the scriptures does it say every person who obeys God, will be his anointed sons?

The common false assumption that every person believing in God, will be taken to heaven, has led many into the false idea that they are born again.
That is not scriptural.

Why do you think he leaped in his mother's womb in the presence of the pregnant Mary?

There is no need to say what we think on this Clare.
The Bible tells us...
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
What we think, is not important, is it.

"Regenerate" is rebirth of the human spirit from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life.

What a strange term, to describe a strange teaching - something I have never seen in the Bible.
Where have you ever read about "rebirth of the human spirit from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life"?

All those not spiritually born again of the Holy Spirit are unregenerate.

At Ephesians 2:1-5, Paul addresses born again followers of Christ.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

These persons are alive. They are no longer dead in trespasses and sin.

I am born again.

How can you be born again, and be dead in trespass and sin Clare?
That cannot work.
However, many persons believe they are born again, because they have preconceived ideas, but that does not make them born again, does it.

What is the purpose of being born again, Clare?

 

[CoreyD]

Does Calvinism posit "free will."

Genuine free will = power to make all moral choices, including sinlessness.

Genuine free will? Clare. are you thinking carefully of what you are saying?
First, you say philosophical free will. Now you want to call that genuine free will!!?

We cannot just go about being the language authority, especially when one don't know what one is talking about
God given free will, is not only genuine, it is legit... unlike philosophical free will. which is a man made philosophy made by people who want to argue against God.

If you want to argue for philosophical free will, then you are way off course, by putting the word "genuine" to it.
I told you, you have to make a decision, and you cannot refute God given free will, by ignoring the scriptures that actually say free will is a human possession.

 

[CoreyD]

Prior to the fall, Adam could choose to be sinless.
We no longer have the power (will) to make that choice.
Our free will is partial, we now choose what we prefer, and radical sinlessness is not what we prefer.
We like our sin. . .until we are born again.

We like our sin. . .until we are born again.
Paul was born again, and here is what Paul said...

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Romans 7:18-25

Does that sound like someone that likes sin?

What about this partial free will.
It almost seems like you are sneaking that word "partly" in, to say, yes, but...
Like when you said, the Devil is partially bound, as you didn't want to agree fully with the scripture, so you say yes, but...

You are agreeing there is free will.
It's just that you want to say it involves something that it does not involve, and so, you say it's partial.
All you have to do Clair, is remove that philosophy you squeezed into defining free will, and you would see that there is in fact free will.

There is no such thing as partial free will.
It's free will, or it's not. You can't partialize God given free will.