Should doctors be able to withold treatment for political affiliation or marital status?

[RDKirk]

The correlation with brain structure is higher than the correlation with family history. The issue is that correlation is not necessarily causation. For example, it might be that one's political outlook affects brain structure. An openness to novel or unfamiliar things might increase the size of the ACG, while a threat-adverse outlook might increase the robustness of the amygdala.

You're making up stuff that was not even in the report.

There was nothing in the report suggesting that correlation with brain structure is higher than the correlation with family history.

 

[The Barbarian]

You're making up stuff that was not even in the report.

Not in that report. This research indicates that conditioning is less important than neuroanatomy.

Cogn Affect Behav Neurosci 2022 Jun;22(3):586-599

Political Orientation as Psychological Defense or Basic Disposition? A Social Neuroscience Examination ​

Some view conservatism as a psychological defense that insulates from negative stimuli and events. Others view conservatism as a consequence of increased dispositional sensitivity to negative stimuli and events. Further complicating matters, research shows that conservatives are sometimes more and sometimes less sensitive to negative stimuli and events. The current research integrates these opposing views and results. We reasoned that conservatives should typically be less sensitive to negative stimuli if conservative beliefs act as a psychological defense. However, when core components of conservative beliefs are threatened, the psychological defense may fall, and conservatives may show heightened sensitivity to negative stimuli. In two ERP studies, participants were randomly assigned to either an ostensibly real economic threat or a nonthreatening control condition. To measure reactivity to negative stimuli, we indexed the P3 component to aversive white noise bursts in an auditory oddball paradigm. In both studies, the relationship between increased conservatism and P3 mean amplitude was negative in the control condition but positive in threat condition (this relationship was stronger in Study 2). In Study 2, source localization of the P3 component revealed that, after threat, conservatism was associated with increased activity in the anterior cingulate cortex and dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, regions associated with conflict-related processes. These results demonstrate that the link between conservatism and negativity bias is context-dependent, i.e., dependent on threat experiences.


And this:

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www.cell.com

Those are remarkable data. Do we see that kind of correlation depending on family liberal/conservative scales? My parents were quite conservative. Most of their children are not. One of my children is at least moderately conservative.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I don't buy this at all. What has happened since Trumps election shows this conservatives "fear" more is just false. Its the left who has been running around being afraid of everything. Everything the conservatives do or Trymp did was terrible and was going to cause untold horrible things. Everything was bad. The economy was going to to fall apart, we were going into WWIII.

And now Democrats and single people aren't going to get Healthcare.

Research shows liberals are far mire likely to have mental health problems and disorders. Liberals are more likely to have mental health breakdowns.

Its the left that needed safe spaces, and scared of micro agressions. Silence is violence, and are always claiming they are unsafe.

And now they are scared of no Healthcare for Democrats in the VA.

So before you start throwing stones maybe you should look at your own house.

This is just one long, weepy, “Nuh uh, you are” post with nary a shred of evidence given. lol!

 

[RDKirk]

Not in that report. This research indicates that conditioning is less important than neuroanatomy.

Cogn Affect Behav Neurosci 2022 Jun;22(3):586-599

Political Orientation as Psychological Defense or Basic Disposition? A Social Neuroscience Examination ​

Some view conservatism as a psychological defense that insulates from negative stimuli and events. Others view conservatism as a consequence of increased dispositional sensitivity to negative stimuli and events. Further complicating matters, research shows that conservatives are sometimes more and sometimes less sensitive to negative stimuli and events. The current research integrates these opposing views and results. We reasoned that conservatives should typically be less sensitive to negative stimuli if conservative beliefs act as a psychological defense. However, when core components of conservative beliefs are threatened, the psychological defense may fall, and conservatives may show heightened sensitivity to negative stimuli. In two ERP studies, participants were randomly assigned to either an ostensibly real economic threat or a nonthreatening control condition. To measure reactivity to negative stimuli, we indexed the P3 component to aversive white noise bursts in an auditory oddball paradigm. In both studies, the relationship between increased conservatism and P3 mean amplitude was negative in the control condition but positive in threat condition (this relationship was stronger in Study 2). In Study 2, source localization of the P3 component revealed that, after threat, conservatism was associated with increased activity in the anterior cingulate cortex and dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, regions associated with conflict-related processes. These results demonstrate that the link between conservatism and negativity bias is context-dependent, i.e., dependent on threat experiences.


And this:
View attachment 366820

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www.cell.com

Those are remarkable data. Do we see that kind of correlation depending on family liberal/conservative scales? My parents were quite conservative. Most of their children are not. One of my children is at least moderately conservative.

You haven't addressed my earlier points regarding the basic validity of the study.

What is a conservative? What is a liberal?

That's a harder question than "what is a woman?"

In the study you linked, the researchers determined whether participants were liberal or conservative using a self-report questionnaire. They were asked, simply, "Where would you place yourself on the following political scale?" Scale: 1 (very liberal) to 5 (very conservative).

Seriously. That was it.

There was no analysis of voting history, policy views, or party affiliation—just a broad self-assessment. Someone might be socially liberal but fiscally conservative. Where would they rate themselves? It says nothing about views on specific issues like immigration, race relations, climate change, taxation, etc.

I know black people who voted for Harris and are calling for re-segregation...what are they? (I mean politically, not intellectually.)

These were students asked this question at a university, surrounded by liberalism. How did that affect how they answered that simplistic question?

And they were in the UK at that, where "liberal" and "conservative" don't denote exactly the same characteristics as in the US.

We already know that political orientation can change over time and with personal experiences...how can brain structure be correlated with that?

If brain structure is relatively stable in adulthood, and political orientation shifts, then either the brain structure isn't the cause of political views or the brain is changing along side political views. So, a person's brain structure might at most predispose them to certain values, but life experience can override or change those predispositions.

Plus, their sample was of predominantly young people whose political orientation is still forming. Even if a correlation exists at that age, it doesn't predict what that person's views will be in 30 or 40 years with more life experiences.

So, the only thing we can say from the research--if anything at all--is that brain structure might contribute but does not determine political identity.

 

[The Barbarian]

You haven't addressed my earlier points regarding the basic validity of the study.

What is a conservative? What is a liberal?

Political Typology Quiz

Take our quiz to find out which one of our nine political typology groups is your best match.

www.pewresearch.org

Me?

A somewhat more realistic system:

The Political Compass

explanation of the Political Compass model

www.politicalcompass.org

Me:

In the study you linked, the researchers determined whether participants were liberal or conservative using a self-report questionnaire. They were asked, simply, "Where would you place yourself on the following political scale?" Scale: 1 (very liberal) to 5 (very conservative).

Seriously. That was it.

Kinda like self-reporting PTSD.

We already know that political orientation can change over time and with personal experiences...how can brain structure be correlated with that?

Brains are plastic. As I suggested, it's possible that brain structure changes to fit political outlook. Seems like it would be a real challenge to test for that.

If brain structure is relatively stable in adulthood,

It's not. You can change things.

Neuroplasticity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Plus, their sample was of predominantly young people whose political orientation is still forming.

Which would suggest the neural structure is the first deteminant. But I'd be interested in seeing how that works with older people.

So, the only thing we can say from the research--if anything at all--is that brain structure might contribute but does not determine political identity.

Anatomy is not destiny. People can change.

 

[Aaron112]

‘Extremely disturbing and unethical’: new rules allow VA doctors to refuse to treat Democrats, unmarried veterans



Anyone care to explain how it could be a good thing for healthcare professionals to refuse to care for anyone?

For money. They make more money and keep their job secure by their (bad) choices.

 

[rjs330]

This is just one long, weepy, “Nuh uh, you are” post with nary a shred of evidence given. lol!

Sigh... I thought you could read. My bad.

 

[RDKirk]

Political Typology Quiz

Take our quiz to find out which one of our nine political typology groups is your best match.

www.pewresearch.org

Me?

I do believe that political position is better described by a 2-axis matrix rather than a 1-axis spectrum. I have personally preferred the Pournelle 2-axis matrix since 1975.

Interestingly, on that matrix American Republicans and Democrats were in the same quadrant with only a small difference between them. Even more interesting, Communists and Hippies (often considered communists because they were often communalists) were diametrically opposed.

But those studies did not use any more

Kinda like self-reporting PTSD.

All the men I grew up with had been in ground combat in major wars. I've seen PTSD. It didn't have to be self-reported...everyone around them could testify to it.

Brains are plastic. As I suggested, it's possible that brain structure changes to fit political outlook. Seems like it would be a real challenge to test for that.

It's not. You can change things.

Neuroplasticity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Which would suggest the neural structure is the first deteminant. But I'd be interested in seeing how that works with older people.

Anatomy is not destiny. People can change.

And here is where we enter the sphere of the Lamarkian belief of Communists that we can make the New Soviet Man...with just enough "re-education."

But earlier you had said, "This research indicates that conditioning is less important than neuroanatomy."

I guess you changed your mind.

 

[The Barbarian]

And here is where we enter the sphere of the Lamarkian belief of Communists that we can make the New Soviet Man...with just enough "re-education."

That's not Lamarckian. Lysenko's ideas were Lamarckian. The research merely shows that environment can alter neuroanatomy. Perhaps not to the degree that genetics determines such things, but it can.

To study whether exposure to neighborhood violence might also affect children’s amygdala reactivity, the researchers analyzed data from 708 children and teens ages 7 to 19, recruited from 354 families enrolled in the Michigan Twins Neurogenetic Study. Most were from neighborhoods with above-average levels of poverty and disadvantage, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau. Fifty-four percent of the participants were boys, 78.5% were white, 13% were Black and 8% were other races and ethnicities. The participants lived in a mix of rural, suburban and urban areas in and around Lansing, Michigan.

Teens completed a set of surveys that asked about their exposure to community violence, their relationship with their parents and their parents’ parenting style. Participants also had their brains scanned by functional MRI while they looked at faces that were angry, fearful, happy or neutral.

Overall, the researchers found that participants who lived in more disadvantaged neighborhoods reported more exposure to community violence. And participants who reported more exposure to community violence showed higher levels of amygdala reactivity to fearful and angry faces.

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www.apa.org

But earlier you had said, "This research indicates that conditioning is less important than neuroanatomy."

Yes. But as research shows that neuroanatomy can be affected by environment.

I guess you changed your mind.

It's not one or the other. Research so far shows that neuroanatomy is an excellent predictor of political orientation. None of it shows that environment has no effect on such things.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not Lamarckian. Lysenko's ideas were Lamarckian. The research merely shows that environment can alter neuroanatomy. Perhaps not to the degree that genetics determines such things, but it can.

To study whether exposure to neighborhood violence might also affect children’s amygdala reactivity, the researchers analyzed data from 708 children and teens ages 7 to 19, recruited from 354 families enrolled in the Michigan Twins Neurogenetic Study. Most were from neighborhoods with above-average levels of poverty and disadvantage, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau. Fifty-four percent of the participants were boys, 78.5% were white, 13% were Black and 8% were other races and ethnicities. The participants lived in a mix of rural, suburban and urban areas in and around Lansing, Michigan.

Teens completed a set of surveys that asked about their exposure to community violence, their relationship with their parents and their parents’ parenting style. Participants also had their brains scanned by functional MRI while they looked at faces that were angry, fearful, happy or neutral.

Overall, the researchers found that participants who lived in more disadvantaged neighborhoods reported more exposure to community violence. And participants who reported more exposure to community violence showed higher levels of amygdala reactivity to fearful and angry faces.

Loading…

www.apa.org

Yes. But as research shows that neuroanatomy can be affected by environment.

It's not one or the other. Research so far shows that neuroanatomy is an excellent predictor of political orientation. None of it shows that environment has no effect on such things.

Which does get back to the idea that by engineering the environment we can change a person's political orientation to what we want it to be. That's the only "practical" application of this research. Re-education camps.

 

[Landon Caeli]

My doctor needs to provide any treatment I say, and when I say now, I mean now... It's my body, and he'll do what I say.

 

[trophy33]

My doctor needs to provide any treatment I say, and when I say now, I mean now... It's my body, and he'll do what I say.

They swore to do no harm

 

[Landon Caeli]

Me:
View attachment 366834

ME.!!!

 

[The Barbarian]

Which does get back to the idea that by engineering the environment we can change a person's political orientation to what we want it to be. That's the only "practical" application of this research. Re-education camps.

No. The finding that people more reactive to threats were better able to survive North Korean re-education efforts pretty much dismisses that. Ironically, being extremely resistant to new ideas is adaptive in oppressive environments, while being open to novel ideas is more adaptive in more libertarian environments.

 

[Landon Caeli]

No. The finding that people more reactive to threats were better able to survive North Korean re-education efforts pretty much dismisses that. Ironically, being extremely resistant to new ideas is adaptive in oppressive environments, while being open to novel ideas is more adaptive in more libertarian environments.

Ideas are over-rated. If it's not an already known fact, it's gobledygooks.

 

[Hans Blaster]

ME.!!!

View attachment 366866

We already knew that, Landon.

 

[The Barbarian]

Ideas are over-rated. If it's not an already known fact, it's gobledygooks.

Thank you for that idea.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A somewhat more realistic system:

The Political Compass

explanation of the Political Compass model

www.politicalcompass.org

Me:

Economic: -4.38
Social: -5.85

 

[Innsmuthbride]

Your Political Compass​

Economic Left/Right: -6.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51​

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

‘Extremely disturbing and unethical’: new rules allow VA doctors to refuse to treat Democrats, unmarried veterans



Anyone care to explain how it could be a good thing for healthcare professionals to refuse to care for anyone?

This story has been debunked. VA also responded on X, writing, “This story is disinformation. All eligible Veterans will always be welcome at VA and will always receive the benefits and services they’ve earned under the law.”