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Should doctors be able to withold treatment for political affiliation or marital status?

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Gene2memE

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And you don't think it's the slightest bit possible that the administration was haphazardly using some sort of AI tools with a clumsy prompt like "Take out the woke stuff" or "Take out the stuff that Obama and Biden put in" (since those specific things were added in 2 waves of directives that occurred in 2014 and late-2021) that produced this end result?

With THIS administration, I think it's better to ascribe malice first and incompetence second. Don't you?

Sort of like when those book removals happened from the Naval Academy (some of which had nothing to do with DEI), and it was result of Trump's team using automated tools to try to detect the "woke" books, and it cast too wide a net.

But, that was malice too. It wasn't accidental.

The Pentagon literally provided a list of 20 topic areas that were to be removed. Topics included: "affirmative action, anti-racism, critical race theory, discrimination, diversity, gender dysphoria, gender identity and transition, transgender, transsexual and white privilege".

So, civilian political appointees at the Air Force, Navy and Army libraries pulled a bunch of books on those topic areas.

Notably, the books didn't include things like Mein Kampf or books endorsing White Supremacist talking points. So 'The Bell Curve' wasn't removed, but 'The Race Bomb' and 'IQ, Heritability, and Racism' were.

It was only after public outcry that these were restored. Even then some books remain banned.

This government is literally doing what it can to ban certain books.
 
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The Barbarian

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Also to the point, most of the doctors I know (working in a central facility of a university that's attached to a really quite large teaching hospital) are far more left-wing than right.

Might well not be Democrats who have to worry about not getting the treatment they need and are entitled to...
Those guys around Trump never consider the possible blowback over stuff like this. Bottom line, left-wing physicians are much less likely to withhold medical care to right-wing people.
 
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RDKirk

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Those guys around Trump never consider the possible blowback over stuff like this. Bottom line, left-wing physicians are much less likely to withhold medical care to right-wing people.
I wouldn't count on that.
 
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The Barbarian

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We're talking about people who are disowning relatives who voted for Trump.
I get how that is.

Turns out, a lot of this depends on a detail of brain anatomy...

nature 28 September 2020

Intrinsic functional connectivity of blue and red brains: neurobiological evidence of different stress resilience between political attitudes​

and

“Liberals and conservatives exhibit different cognitive styles and converging lines of evidence suggest that biology influences differences in their political attitudes and beliefs. … Here, we explore differences in brain function in liberals and conservatives by matching publicly-available voter records to 82 subjects who performed a risk-taking task during functional imaging. Although the risk-taking behavior of Democrats (liberals) and Republicans (conservatives) did not differ, their brain activity did. Democrats showed significantly greater activity in the left insula, while Republicans showed significantly greater activity in the right amygdala.In fact, a two parameter model of partisanship based on amygdala and insula activations yields a better fitting model of partisanship than a well-established model based on parental socialization of party identification long thought to be one of the core findings of political science.These results suggest that liberals and conservatives engage different cognitive processes when they think about risk, and they support recent evidence that conservatives show greater sensitivity to threatening stimuli.”

Turns out, liberals tend to have a more robust anterior cingulate gyrus and conservatives tend to have a more robust amygdala. The former allows greater ability to handle novel or conflicting information, and the later is involved in recognizing theatening stimuli. Both of these are important brain functions, but the relative robustness of these structures are more predictive of political outlook than is family history.

Seems there's a grain of truth in the old saying that liberals are more open to other kinds of people because they figure everyone is pretty much like they are, while conservatives are suspicious of other kinds of people for the same reason.
 
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RDKirk

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I get how that is.

Turns out, a lot of this depends on a detail of brain anatomy...

nature 28 September 2020

Intrinsic functional connectivity of blue and red brains: neurobiological evidence of different stress resilience between political attitudes​

and

“Liberals and conservatives exhibit different cognitive styles and converging lines of evidence suggest that biology influences differences in their political attitudes and beliefs. … Here, we explore differences in brain function in liberals and conservatives by matching publicly-available voter records to 82 subjects who performed a risk-taking task during functional imaging. Although the risk-taking behavior of Democrats (liberals) and Republicans (conservatives) did not differ, their brain activity did. Democrats showed significantly greater activity in the left insula, while Republicans showed significantly greater activity in the right amygdala.In fact, a two parameter model of partisanship based on amygdala and insula activations yields a better fitting model of partisanship than a well-established model based on parental socialization of party identification long thought to be one of the core findings of political science.These results suggest that liberals and conservatives engage different cognitive processes when they think about risk, and they support recent evidence that conservatives show greater sensitivity to threatening stimuli.”

Turns out, liberals tend to have a more robust anterior cingulate gyrus and conservatives tend to have a more robust amygdala. The former allows greater ability to handle novel or conflicting information, and the later is involved in recognizing theatening stimuli. Both of these are important brain functions, but the relative robustness of these structures are more predictive of political outlook than is family history.

Seems there's a grain of truth in the old saying that liberals are more open to other kinds of people because they figure everyone is pretty much like they are, while conservatives are suspicious of other kinds of people for the same reason.
That article is so incredibly biased that it's essentially liberal propaganda.

Let's just talk about the amygdala. Yes, it has the purposes you stated. But it's also the primary component in generating PTSD. Liberals claim PTSD from darned near every kind of emotional upset...conservatives don't.

Liberals get "triggered" by "micro-aggressions" even to having physical reactions far more than conservatives. When have you heard of conservatives requiring their "own spaces" or "trigger warnings" on media?

Why is it that liberals disown--can't stand the physical presence--of conservative relatives but conservative relatives can accept being in the presence of liberal relatives? Whose "fight or flight" response is actually overactive?

And what has happened when people switch positions, becoming more conservative or more liberal?

Or how does age matter, in that people tend to become more conservative as they get older.

If you looked at the actual research report, that presented no such strident claims. It pointed out the weaknesses of its test methods, particularly in determining just what "liberal" and "conservative" means in medically verifiable terms.
 
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The Barbarian

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Let's just talk about the amygdala. Yes, it has the purposes you stated. But it's also the primary component in generating PTSD. Liberals claim PTSD from darned near every kind of emotional upset...conservatives don't.
Of course it is. It's about threat perception. Research indicates that people who have gone through extreme stress tend to have more extreme political views. Remember, a heightened neurological perception of danger is adaptive if one is actually in danger. In an environment where one is not in significant danger, an ability to deal with novel or contradictory stimuli would be more adaptive.

In a course on abnormal psychology, I read a study of Korean War POWs. Those who scored high on paranoia did better than other POWs in dealing with captivity.

There seems to be a reluctance on the part of many conservatives to disclose difficulties.
 
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The Barbarian

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Why is it that liberals disown--can't stand the physical presence--of conservative relatives but conservative relatives can accept being in the presence of liberal relatives? Whose "fight or flight" response is actually overactive?
I have a rather right-wing brother. Doesn't bother me. We don't talk politics much. He does worry more about immigrants and crime, which is exactly backwards; native-born Americans are far more likely to commit crimes against persons and/or property than even illegal immigrants. He worries about me, I think, but he doesn't seem to be offended by my outlook.

He's not off the scale; I mean, he doesn't worry about immigrants eating his cat or oppressing white people, or anything like that. But he supported Trump, last I heard.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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That article is so incredibly biased that it's essentially liberal propaganda.
Oh man, I hope we get a big ol' "what about"ism reply that cites nothing but makes it super obvious you just don't like "liberals."
Let's just talk about the amygdala. Yes, it has the purposes you stated. But it's also the primary component in generating PTSD. Liberals claim PTSD from darned near every kind of emotional upset...conservatives don't.

Liberals get "triggered" by "micro-aggressions" even to having physical reactions far more than conservatives. When have you heard of conservatives requiring their "own spaces" or "trigger warnings" on media?
But you get a drag queen in a library for a story hour, and you melt down. Or Planet Fitness enacts a bathroom policy you don't like, you melt down. Or a pride parade. Or a Planned Parenthood. Or a book with content you don't like so it should be banned.

But sure, let's pretend that conservatives don't have physical reactions to things, lol.

Why is it that liberals disown--can't stand the physical presence--of conservative relatives but conservative relatives can accept being in the presence of liberal relatives? Whose "fight or flight" response is actually overactive?
I think you are confused. First off, this forum is littered with stories of people disowning kids who come out as gay, non-Christian, who live with a partner before marriage. People who'd never go to a family member's gay wedding, who would disown their daughter who got an abortion. On this very thread is a person who becomes apoplectic at the idea that their child could marry a person who's divorced or has a child and the consequences they'd face from them for choosing a partner they, as a parent, don't approve of (and the only people they approve of is conservative right). Some of the right is so fragile that owning a bakery and making a gay person's wedding cake is just too much. The difference is you rebrand these behaviors as an issue of morality, not politics or political ideology.

So ignoring that icing people out for political ideology is not a "liberal"-only practice, and that you're just repeating nonsense you've picked up from "news" agencies that appeal to your political bias, and that just a second ago you were complaining that people are too fragile before going on to complain about people not wanting to hang out with you... The people I know who don't talk to their Trump-voting relatives? It's not simply because they voted for Trump. It's because their ideology, their behavior, or some combination of the two makes hanging out with them undesirable. I only have one family member we've all kind of given space to, and it's not because she voted for Trump. It's because she has made voting for Trump and repeating absolute nonsense the whole of her identity. She talks about blackwashing, forced gender reassignments of children in public schools, the gay agenda, drag story hour, the "right to life," the intellectual elite and liberal radicalization in colleges... It's exhausting, it's nonsense, and she says it to wind people up. Since its the WHOLE of her identity, she launches off on these diatribes in private, in public, and it's embarrassing to be associated with that.

I could care less that she voted for Trump, but I don't want to hang out with somebody who says that white people are more oppressed than black people and she won't let her kids have a gay teacher because he's probably a pedophile, and basically just a torrent of things that are just stupid. I'm in my mid-40s. My time on earth is both valuable and short. Unless I'm actively collecting a salary to associate with people I find to be a chore to be around, I don't particularly feel like I should have to.

And what has happened when people switch positions, becoming more conservative or more liberal?
People do it all the time. Everybody in my family, except for me, has done it. My husband used to be a deeply conservative Christian with all the far right ideology. No abortion, no gay marriage, no welfare... Literally all the things. Now he's wildly far left. Pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-trans rights, BLM supporter, the works.
Or how does age matter, in that people tend to become more conservative as they get older.
They don't. People typically remain about where they were their entire lives on the political spectrum, but if they are going to change, they're more likely to be liberal going more conservative vs conservative going liberal, until 2015, when a spike showed people were more likely to become more liberal as opposed to conservative, then a huge spike of the same in 2020. I wonder what happened those years that drove people away from wanting to be a conservative republican? LoL

If you looked at the actual research report, that presented no such strident claims. It pointed out the weaknesses of its test methods, particularly in determining just what "liberal" and "conservative" means in medically verifiable terms.

That's now studies work. They point out areas of fallibility for future analysis and contextualization. It doesn't mean the findings are incorrect. It means the parameters for study performance has been articulated.
 
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Bradskii

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People do it all the time. Everybody in my family, except for me, has done it. My husband used to be a deeply conservative Christian with all the far right ideology. No abortion, no gay marriage, no welfare... Literally all the things.
Good grief. How did you guys ever get together!
Now he's wildly far left. Pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-trans rights, BLM supporter, the works.
And my guess would be that he met different people (well, you for a start). Moved in different circles. Experienced different outlooks. Possibly moved away from where he grew up? Because I was the same. Uber conservative family. Church 4 times every Sunday. Head choirboy! Small town values. Then...moved to The Big City. Off to The Bright Lights. And I changed. Or perhaps I simply realised who I was, given the freedom I then had.

Now, thinking about all the people I know, all those who left home and travelled, worked in far away places with strange sounding names...they're all liberal. And all those who now live pretty much in walking distance from where they grew up...they're all conservative. I honestly can't think of any real exceptions. Maybe my SIL...who wasn't perhaps as conservative as your husband was. But then he did marry my daughter, so he's jumped the fence as well.
 
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RDKirk

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Oh man, I hope we get a big ol' "what about"ism reply that cites nothing but makes it super obvious you just don't like "liberals."

But you get a drag queen in a library for a story hour, and you melt down. Or Planet Fitness enacts a bathroom policy you don't like, you melt down. Or a pride parade. Or a Planned Parenthood. Or a book with content you don't like so it should be banned.
It's very likely that I was liberal before you were born. I was in Civil Rights marches in the 60s. When I was in college, I wrote a column for the school newspaper: "Off-White Commentary."

But I've learned we're dealing with two wings of the same vulture, demonstrably Marxist on the left, demonstrably fascist on the right.


But sure, let's pretend that conservatives don't have physical reactions to things, lol.

I think you are confused. First off, this forum is littered with stories of people disowning kids who come out as gay, non-Christian, who live with a partner before marriage. People who'd never go to a family member's gay wedding, who would disown their daughter who got an abortion. On this very thread is a person who becomes apoplectic at the idea that their child could marry a person who's divorced or has a child and the consequences they'd face from them for choosing a partner they, as a parent, don't approve of (and the only people they approve of is conservative right). Some of the right is so fragile that owning a bakery and making a gay person's wedding cake is just too much. The difference is you rebrand these behaviors as an issue of morality, not politics or political ideology.

So ignoring that icing people out for political ideology is not a "liberal"-only practice, and that you're just repeating nonsense you've picked up from "news" agencies that appeal to your political bias, and that just a second ago you were complaining that people are too fragile before going on to complain about people not wanting to hang out with you... The people I know who don't talk to their Trump-voting relatives? It's not simply because they voted for Trump. It's because their ideology, their behavior, or some combination of the two makes hanging out with them undesirable. I only have one family member we've all kind of given space to, and it's not because she voted for Trump. It's because she has made voting for Trump and repeating absolute nonsense the whole of her identity. She talks about blackwashing, forced gender reassignments of children in public schools, the gay agenda, drag story hour, the "right to life," the intellectual elite and liberal radicalization in colleges... It's exhausting, it's nonsense, and she says it to wind people up. Since its the WHOLE of her identity, she launches off on these diatribes in private, in public, and it's embarrassing to be associated with that.

I could care less that she voted for Trump, but I don't want to hang out with somebody who says that white people are more oppressed than black people and she won't let her kids have a gay teacher because he's probably a pedophile, and basically just a torrent of things that are just stupid. I'm in my mid-40s. My time on earth is both valuable and short. Unless I'm actively collecting a salary to associate with people I find to be a chore to be around, I don't particularly feel like I should have to.

People do it all the time. Everybody in my family, except for me, has done it. My husband used to be a deeply conservative Christian with all the far right ideology. No abortion, no gay marriage, no welfare... Literally all the things. Now he's wildly far left. Pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-trans rights, BLM supporter, the works.

They don't. People typically remain about where they were their entire lives on the political spectrum, but if they are going to change, they're more likely to be liberal going more conservative vs conservative going liberal, until 2015, when a spike showed people were more likely to become more liberal as opposed to conservative, then a huge spike of the same in 2020. I wonder what happened those years that drove people away from wanting to be a conservative republican? LoL
But you absolutely proved my point. If liberals and conservatives are both easily triggered, then the amygdala is equally active (or inactive) for both. The study proved nothing of any practical use, certainly nothing that can be bandied about like a "fact" as that article attempts to do.



That's now studies work. They point out areas of fallibility for future analysis and contextualization. It doesn't mean the findings are incorrect. It means the parameters for study performance has been articulated.
It means it shouldn't be packaged up in propaganda as though it were a fact.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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It's very likely that I was liberal before you were born. I was in Civil Rights marches in the 60s. When I was in college, I wrote a column for the school newspaper: "Off-White Commentary."

But I've learned we're dealing with two wings of the same vulture, demonstrably Marxist on the left, demonstrably fascist on the right.
Super fond of thinking that because you did something, everybody must do the same, huh?
But you absolutely proved my point. If liberals and conservatives are both easily triggered, then the amygdala is equally active (or inactive) for both. The study proved nothing of any practical use, certainly nothing that can be bandied about like a "fact" as that article attempts to do.
Your point was that they weren’t equally “triggered.” Do you not remember the point of your own post?

The study was quite interesting. You just don’t like what it said. However, not liking something doesn’t mean it is true.
It means it shouldn't be packaged up in propaganda as though it were a fact.
Because you don’t like what the study found doesn’t mean the study is invalid. Frankly, the fear-based response is something that has been remarked on before.
 
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rjs330

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Because you don’t like what the study found doesn’t mean the study is invalid. Frankly, the fear-based response is something that has been remarked on before.
I don't buy this at all. What has happened since Trumps election shows this conservatives "fear" more is just false. Its the left who has been running around being afraid of everything. Everything the conservatives do or Trymp did was terrible and was going to cause untold horrible things. Everything was bad. The economy was going to to fall apart, we were going into WWIII.

And now Democrats and single people aren't going to get Healthcare.

Research shows liberals are far mire likely to have mental health problems and disorders. Liberals are more likely to have mental health breakdowns.

Its the left that needed safe spaces, and scared of micro agressions. Silence is violence, and are always claiming they are unsafe.

And now they are scared of no Healthcare for Democrats in the VA.

So before you start throwing stones maybe you should look at your own house.
 
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The Barbarian

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But you absolutely proved my point. If liberals and conservatives are both easily triggered, then the amygdala is equally active (or inactive) for both. The study proved nothing of any practical use, certainly nothing that can be bandied about like a "fact" as that article attempts to do.
The fact that these bits of neuroanatomy are more predictive of political outlook than family culture is sufficient to demonstrate that something important is going on here. And remember, each sort of reaction has both adaptive value, and potential maladaptive functions. The point, I think is that liberals and conservatives have different ways to deal with and also to misinterpret reality.
 
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The Barbarian

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The data showing that leftists are more inclined to admit mental illness than rightists makes all kinds of sense. This may be the reason that right-wing extremists tend to be more violent than left-wing extremists:

“There has been a strong presumption among many that while left-wing and right-wing ideologies vary a great deal in content, they resemble each other in terms of their willingness to use violence to further their political agenda. However, our analysis shows that right-wing actors are significantly more violent than left-wing actors,” said LaFree, a professor in the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice (CCJS) and the founding director of the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START).
 
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The Barbarian

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I think thats fairly obvious. We didn't need a study to tell us we think differently.
The news is that brain anatomy is a very good predictor of these differences.
 
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RDKirk

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The fact that these bits of neuroanatomy are more predictive of political outlook than family culture is sufficient to demonstrate that something important is going on here.
That's not a fact. Even the research paper said it was not established as a fact.
 
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The Barbarian

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That's not a fact.
The correlation with brain structure is higher than the correlation with family history. The issue is that correlation is not necessarily causation. For example, it might be that one's political outlook affects brain structure. An openness to novel or unfamiliar things might increase the size of the ACG, while a threat-adverse outlook might increase the robustness of the amygdala.
 
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