Did the sacrifice on the day of Atonement cover all Israel's or only those who believed that it would?

[Jeff Saunders]

As I understand the day of Atonement , the high priest would go into the Holy of Holy's and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and God would cover over the sins of Israel all of Israel. There is no mention that I know of, of there being a conditional covering for only those who believed it.
Hebrews 8 tells us that Jesus is our high priest and that his sacrifice was greater than that of the old. Heb 8:10-12 Because this is the covenant that I shall ordain with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, placing my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them upon their hearts, and I will be God for them and they will be a people for me. And by no means shall they give instruction- each to his neighbor and each to his brother - saying " Know the Lord", because all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, Because I will be merciful toward their unrighteousness, and I will certainly remember their sins no more.
So if the OT high priest sacrifice covered all in Israel, but Jesus's sacrifice is only good for those who have said a prayer or jumped through whatever hoops man has made up, how is it a better sacrifice, why would the sacrifice that Jesus being better not include all but only a few.
Or could it be that when scripture says that all will know me from the least to the greatest and that he will remember their sins no more, he really did that.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Yes Jesus took away the sin of the world all sin past, present and future . But manwoman still has a problem they do not posses the life of God and the only way to come into possession of God's Life is to believe in Jesus.

 

[Hoping2]

As I understand the day of Atonement , the high priest would go into the Holy of Holy's and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and God would cover over the sins of Israel all of Israel.

Do you have any verses saying the atonement was meant for anyone but those present ?

There is no mention that I know of, of there being a conditional covering for only those who believed it.
Hebrews 8 tells us that Jesus is our high priest and that his sacrifice was greater than that of the old. Heb 8:10-12 Because this is the covenant that I shall ordain with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, placing my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them upon their hearts, and I will be God for them and they will be a people for me. And by no means shall they give instruction- each to his neighbor and each to his brother - saying " Know the Lord", because all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, Because I will be merciful toward their unrighteousness, and I will certainly remember their sins no more.
So if the OT high priest sacrifice covered all in Israel, but Jesus's sacrifice is only good for those who have said a prayer or jumped through whatever hoops man has made up, how is it a better sacrifice, why would the sacrifice that Jesus being better not include all but only a few.
Or could it be that when scripture says that all will know me from the least to the greatest and that he will remember their sins no more, he really did that.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

OT blood of atonement could only cover past sins, and one had to be there to participate.
NT blood of atonement, (Jesus' blood), completely washes away past sins.
Plus, by our baptism into Jesus' shedding of that blood, and its application to us, our old man can be destroyed so we can be born again !

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So if the OT high priest sacrifice covered all in Israel, but Jesus's sacrifice is only good for those who have said a prayer or jumped through whatever hoops man has made up, how is it a better sacrifice, why would the sacrifice that Jesus being better not include all but only a few.

Looking back on my charismatic days they called their particular hoops, the "sacrifices of the lips." Hilarious in retrospect as most of their lives turned out to be slow motion train wrecks, chasing after that name it and claim it hoop.

I was so caught up in it at the time that I resolved to wipe out every conceivable sin in my life. The majority of such were easy ones. No alcohol, or bad external habits. I'll call these the "openly physical acts" of sin. The challenge of sin of the lips was much more difficult. I resolved never to speak a bad word about any person, even at an obtuse angle. I worked on it for months and had limited success, and realized the issue wasn't so much with my lips as it was in my mind. But I was trying, and immediately repenting upon failures, so I thought I was making progress.

One of the most difficult tasks of the mind was as Job might say, looking upon a maid to lust. I too had to turn my head because my mind would always fail if I did not immediately turn away. And that was not always possible. Sometimes you actually have to face the objects of your temptations and speak to that person. There it was far more difficult as you couldn't actually turn away. But there again, smaller victories were insight, coupled with repentance, of course. Eventually I realized that even a nanosecond of temptation, no matter how fast I tossed it aside, was still A SIN of defiling nature. There is a deep rabbit hole here for all that follow, and much personal deception arises, like thinking we make ourselves sinless. There's actually quite a few that fell into this LIE of HYPOCRISY. Jesus really hates this one.

Eventually you figure out that all the problems really reside within the mind, and there we, if we are honest, all get totally blindsided. I think just to prove the point, that sin really does reside within the flesh and it does so courtesy of something that Paul termed "NO LONGER I." No longer I really had a mind of its own that I had no control over. I could not extinguish it. Keep it in check, yes.

But eradication was beyond my grasp.

It was on that ground of reality that I really met salvation by the Grace of God in Christ as a One Way Street of His Own Making, not mine, as my making simply wasn't possible, if I didn't LIE to myself.

And, eventually, that gave way to Him giving a functional understanding of GRACE AND MERCY FOR ALL people, unearned, unmerited. Today I simply ASSUME every person I meet into His Kingdom, because that's simply the way it is and I don't mind speaking about it. Anyone who loves knows God and is born of God, period, end of conversation. No need to teach anyone. Are you a person? Have you ever LOVED in any way, shape or form?

YOU'RE IN. Congratulations. It's quite entertaining.

So, today I bear a different quest. Which is to aggravate the unseen world of my agitators. To invade their world and make them even worse in order to show their ugly heads. In case you haven't noticed, it's working. Mark 16:17-18 is as real to me as 1 2 3. Assume them ALL in, watch them wonder, then watch the resistor come upon them. Oh, it's so real. Just remember, that person is still a child of God, no matter what. You may have to charm a few snakes or pick them up by the tale/tail from time to time. You may also be treated to have to imbibe some of their poison, but it won't harm you. Your enemy however will very predictably FOLLOW you, if you've learned to HATE yourself. Luke 14:26, for your own snakes sake.

Look around you, and more importantly, look INSIDE, and watch the wicked world explode before your own eyes.

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

We'll never see the "crooked and perverse" nation, physically. For them, you have to travel inside the box. You know, kind of like an Xbox of the internal world.

The CROOKED AND PERVERSE nation is within us all. Looking on the outside will turn out to be a waste of time.

And for God's Sake my fellow believers, stop trying to force feed some lying form of Jesus down everyone's throat. It's not working. He really doesn't need our help.

I hear he's quite capable. Do you believe this?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you have any verses saying the atonement was meant for anyone but those present ?

OT blood of atonement could only cover past sins, and one had to be there to participate.
NT blood of atonement, (Jesus' blood), completely washes away past sins.
Plus, by our baptism into Jesus' shedding of that blood, and its application to us, our old man can be destroyed so we can be born again !

I do not know of any verses that say one way or the other, but by inference I would say it had to cover all, not just those present at the time, because not all were able to go, it was not cheap to do what they had to do, and why would God only cover those who had the money to go and participate?
Not only past sins but all sins past present and future-2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, NOT COUNTING PEOPLES TRASPASSES AGAINST THEM, and has given us the message of reconciliation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Looking back on my charismatic days they called their particular hoops, the "sacrifices of the lips." Hilarious in retrospect as most of their lives turned out to be slow motion train wrecks, chasing after that name it and claim it hoop.

I was so caught up in it at the time that I resolved to wipe out every conceivable sin in my life. The majority of such were easy ones. No alcohol, or bad external habits. I'll call these the "openly physical acts" of sin. The challenge of sin of the lips was much more difficult. I resolved never to speak a bad word about any person, even at an obtuse angle. I worked on it for months and had limited success, and realized the issue wasn't so much with my lips as it was in my mind. But I was trying, and immediately repenting upon failures, so I thought I was making progress.

One of the most difficult tasks of the mind was as Job might say, looking upon a maid to lust. I too had to turn my head because my mind would always fail if I did not immediately turn away. And that was not always possible. Sometimes you actually have to face the objects of your temptations and speak to that person. There it was far more difficult as you couldn't actually turn away. But there again, smaller victories were insight, coupled with repentance, of course. Eventually I realized that even a nanosecond of temptation, no matter how fast I tossed it aside, was still A SIN of defiling nature. There is a deep rabbit hole here for all that follow, and much personal deception arises, like thinking we make ourselves sinless. There's actually quite a few that fell into this LIE of HYPOCRISY. Jesus really hates this one.

Eventually you figure out that all the problems really reside within the mind, and there we, if we are honest, all get totally blindsided. I think just to prove the point, that sin really does reside within the flesh and it does so courtesy of something that Paul termed "NO LONGER I." No longer I really had a mind of its own that I had no control over. I could not extinguish it. Keep it in check, yes.

But eradication was beyond my grasp.

It was on that ground of reality that I really met salvation by the Grace of God in Christ as a One Way Street of His Own Making, not mine, as my making simply wasn't possible, if I didn't LIE to myself.

And, eventually, that gave way to Him giving a functional understanding of GRACE AND MERCY FOR ALL people, unearned, unmerited. Today I simply ASSUME every person I meet into His Kingdom, because that's simply the way it is and I don't mind speaking about it. Anyone who loves knows God and is born of God, period, end of conversation. No need to teach anyone. Are you a person? Have you ever LOVED in any way, shape or form?

YOU'RE IN. Congratulations. It's quite entertaining.

So, today I bear a different quest. Which is to aggravate the unseen world of my agitators. To invade their world and make them even worse in order to show their ugly heads. In case you haven't noticed, it's working. Mark 16:17-18 is as real to me as 1 2 3. Assume them ALL in, watch them wonder, then watch the resistor come upon them. Oh, it's so real. Just remember, that person is still a child of God, no matter what. You may have to charm a few snakes or pick them up by the tale/tail from time to time. You may also be treated to have to imbibe some of their poison, but it won't harm you. Your enemy however will very predictably FOLLOW you, if you've learned to HATE yourself. Luke 14:26, for your own snakes sake.

Look around you, and more importantly, look INSIDE, and watch the wicked world explode before your own eyes.

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

We'll never see the "crooked and perverse" nation, physically. For them, you have to travel inside the box. You know, kind of like an Xbox of the internal world.

The CROOKED AND PERVERSE nation is within us all. Looking on the outside will turn out to be a waste of time.

And for God's Sake my fellow believers, stop trying to force feed some lying form of Jesus down everyone's throat. It's not working. He really doesn't need our help.

I hear he's quite capable. Do you believe this?

Thank you for sharing that, because God/Jesus/Spirit are infinite there is no end to how we are drawn to him. My story is different that yours, thankfully God is not bound by formula or the boxes man makes up for him. The important thing are we growing up into the knowledge that we have been given, because this is relationship with a person each of us is dealt with personally and our roads do not look alike but if we are truly following God our destination will be that same.

 

[Hoping2]

I do not know of any verses that say one way or the other, but by inference I would say it had to cover all, not just those present at the time, because not all were able to go, it was not cheap to do what they had to do, and why would God only cover those who had the money to go and participate?

I disagree, as I know folks could exchange their sacrificial animals, or garden fruits, for money to take to Jerusalem. (Deut 14:23-25)
Showing up there, was part of their Law.

Not only past sins but all sins past present and future-2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, NOT COUNTING PEOPLES TRASPASSES AGAINST THEM, and has given us the message of reconciliation.

I disagree there too.
Only those who will submit to God, then and now, can have their sins erased.
Only those "in Christ" at the time of Jesus' return, whether dead or alive, will be saved, and there is no sin "in Christ".

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I disagree, as I know folks could exchange their sacrificial animals, or garden fruits, for money to take to Jerusalem. (Deut 14:23-25)
Showing up there, was part of their Law.

I disagree there too.
Only those who will submit to God, then and now, can have their sins erased.
Only those "in Christ" at the time of Jesus' return, whether dead or alive, will be saved, and there is no sin "in Christ".

So you think Paul was wrong with what he wrote?

 

[Hentenza]

Not only past sins but all sins past present and future-2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, NOT COUNTING PEOPLES TRASPASSES AGAINST THEM, and has given us the message of reconciliation.

You continue to take verses out of context. I would suggest to read the chapter and surrounding verses to understand what Paul is talking about.

“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris | New American Standard Bib

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris

bible.com

Paul speaks how if anyone who is in Christ (if is conditional so is not all) is a new creation. The pronoun “us” and “we” refers to believers who have become a new creation. To the rest of the world Paul encourages the ambassadors of Christ to make an appeal to those that are not yet being reborn as a new creation on behalf of Christ to be reconciled with God. These verses do not help you.

Universalism is a philosophy that some to attempt to justify what they cannot reconcile. In essence is a judgement of God. Universalism is not biblical and the early church came to this realization and pronounced it as heresy in 553ad.

 

[bling]

As I understand the day of Atonement , the high priest would go into the Holy of Holy's and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and God would cover over the sins of Israel all of Israel. There is no mention that I know of, of there being a conditional covering for only those who believed it.
Hebrews 8 tells us that Jesus is our high priest and that his sacrifice was greater than that of the old. Heb 8:10-12 Because this is the covenant that I shall ordain with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, placing my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them upon their hearts, and I will be God for them and they will be a people for me. And by no means shall they give instruction- each to his neighbor and each to his brother - saying " Know the Lord", because all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, Because I will be merciful toward their unrighteousness, and I will certainly remember their sins no more.
So if the OT high priest sacrifice covered all in Israel, but Jesus's sacrifice is only good for those who have said a prayer or jumped through whatever hoops man has made up, how is it a better sacrifice, why would the sacrifice that Jesus being better not include all but only a few.
Or could it be that when scripture says that all will know me from the least to the greatest and that he will remember their sins no more, he really did that.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I much prefer Lev. 5 where it describes and explains the atonement sacrifice of an individual for unintentional sins (really minor sins), which we might extrapolate up to what the atonement sacrifice might be required for rebellious disobedience directly against God (like picking up sticks on the Sabbath).

Lev. 16 takes some explaining:

First off: what “sins” are we talking about? We know from Lev.5 how unintentional sins are to be handled and from other scripture we know how direct disobedience against God sins are handled (death or banishment). Lev. 16 is for all other possible sins. These sins are ones you are not even sure you committed or are not sure they are even sins. The sins in Lev. 5 are very minor sins you do come to realize as sins, while in Lev. 16 you do not know.

However, Leviticus 16 references the Day of Atonement sacrifices, which is the foreshadowing of Christ.

Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of. Lev. 5 maybe a better shadow of the reality. There is some stuff in Lev. 16 which helps a little in explaining what Christ did on the cross, but Christ is not trying to be the replacement for Lev. 16, since the sacrifice on the day of atonement did very little and would not “save” an individual.

Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The Hebrew writer is not praising the day of Atonement as being something really helpful, but does help the people remember how bad they are.

 

[Hoping2]

So you think Paul was wrong with what he wrote?

To what do you refer ?
Rom 2:12 ? "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
1 Cor. 1:18 ? "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
2 Cor. 2:15 ? "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:"
2 Thes. 2:10 ? …"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

 

[Jeff Saunders]

To what do you refer ?
Rom 2:12 ? "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
1 Cor. 1:18 ? "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
2 Cor. 2:15 ? "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:"
2 Thes. 2:10 ? …"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

Look up the Greek word translated as perish, its apollumi, the same word used in Matt 9:17 for the burst wineskin-Luke 15:4-24 the lost sheep,coin,and son were all apollumi.
The use of apollumi in these verses is not to make something gone out of existence, but that at the time those things are not able to be used for there intended purpose.
Your view of God and his nature and character will influence how you are going to define or translate apollumi in these verses, I know that the nature and character of the Trinity does not make mistakes and he only does things out of love, so I choose to see the verses that you quoted as that person is not able to be used as God intended at that time, but like in the parable of the lost sheep Jesus will not stop till the lost sheep is found and then its back to being able to be useful as intended by God.
Most of the Church see God as no different than the old Greek gods, just the top dog, and for him to destroy or torcher his creation for all eternity that's ok because that is what they read in the English scriptures, they do not believe in Apokatastasis, the restoration of all things.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You continue to take verses out of context. I would suggest to read the chapter and surrounding verses to understand what Paul is talking about.

“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris | New American Standard Bib

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris

bible.com

Paul speaks how if anyone who is in Christ (if is conditional so is not all) is a new creation. The pronoun “us” and “we” refers to believers who have become a new creation. To the rest of the world Paul encourages the ambassadors of Christ to make an appeal to those that are not yet being reborn as a new creation on behalf of Christ to be reconciled with God. These verses do not help you.

Universalism is a philosophy that some to attempt to justify what they cannot reconcile. In essence is a judgement of God. Universalism is not biblical and the early church came to this realization and pronounced it as heresy in 553ad.

Paul is just stating an truth that if you are in christ you are a new creation, the statement that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself is a statement of truth but its not finished yet, that is why it says we are to be telling others about the God reconciling the world, its still ongoing.
God reconciling the world to himself is a truth that will happen by the end but we are still in process.
You need to study the " pronounced it as heresy in 553 ad" this is not true, the council rejected a group of people who were distorting what Origen believed about the pre-existence of souls, also that council probably was not legit anyway if you give any credence to the council. The council also said Mary was a eternal virgin going against scripture.
Christian Universal Restoration is not a philosophy but a biblical truth, many verses in scripture proclaim it to be what Gods plan is, especially if you look at the Greek and not the English translation.
So no I have not taken it out of context, it is those who try to explain away that God will reconcile the world to himself that are taking it out of context.

 

[fhansen]

As I understand the day of Atonement , the high priest would go into the Holy of Holy's and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and God would cover over the sins of Israel all of Israel. There is no mention that I know of, of there being a conditional covering for only those who believed it.
Hebrews 8 tells us that Jesus is our high priest and that his sacrifice was greater than that of the old. Heb 8:10-12 Because this is the covenant that I shall ordain with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord, placing my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them upon their hearts, and I will be God for them and they will be a people for me. And by no means shall they give instruction- each to his neighbor and each to his brother - saying " Know the Lord", because all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, Because I will be merciful toward their unrighteousness, and I will certainly remember their sins no more.
So if the OT high priest sacrifice covered all in Israel, but Jesus's sacrifice is only good for those who have said a prayer or jumped through whatever hoops man has made up, how is it a better sacrifice, why would the sacrifice that Jesus being better not include all but only a few.
Or could it be that when scripture says that all will know me from the least to the greatest and that he will remember their sins no more, he really did that.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The difference between the old and new covenants is in our coming to know and unite with God, by the revelation of Christ His Son who paid the ultimate price in order for us to know Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

By knowing the true God we turn to Him, coming to believe in, hope in, and, most, importantly, to love Him. That's where man's true justice, or righteousness-lies. That's how we become His people, with the branch now grafted into the Vine as it was always meant to be:

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord. Jer 31:33-34

Jesus' sacrifice was of a different kind-because its purpose is to demonstrate and proclaim in blantant, undeniable terms a love so wide and vast and deep that it would go to any extreme to show and prove itself to us. That's who God truly is. And so then we can begin to love Him in return-and now we are finally healed of the alienation from Him that constitutes the ugly breach between man and God initiated at the Fall and which is responsible for all of man's ailments and corruption: his sin and death. The most profound bit of catechesis I've ever heard:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

That love is God's law written on our hearts.

 

[Hoping2]

Look up the Greek word translated as perish, its apollumi, the same word used in Matt 9:17 for the burst wineskin-Luke 15:4-24 the lost sheep,coin,and son were all apollumi.
The use of apollumi in these verses is not to make something gone out of existence, but that at the time those things are not able to be used for there intended purpose.
Your view of God and his nature and character will influence how you are going to define or translate apollumi in these verses, I know that the nature and character of the Trinity does not make mistakes and he only does things out of love, so I choose to see the verses that you quoted as that person is not able to be used as God intended at that time, but like in the parable of the lost sheep Jesus will not stop till the lost sheep is found and then its back to being able to be useful as intended by God.
Most of the Church see God as no different than the old Greek gods, just the top dog, and for him to destroy or torcher his creation for all eternity that's ok because that is what they read in the English scriptures, they do not believe in Apokatastasis, the restoration of all things.

I guess, in a limited fashion, the old adage is true.
"Tell a lie long enough, and people will believe it."
Your effort to make sinners as beloved by God as those who obey Him is a futile endeavor.
It is written..."For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:4-6)

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I guess, in a limited fashion, the old adage is true.
"Tell a lie long enough, and people will believe it."
Your effort to make sinners as beloved by God as those who obey Him is a futile endeavor.
It is written..."For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:4-6)

Why do you not deal with the word in question? Why is the definition that I have used a lie? How do you not know that it is not those who believe that God is going to do what he said are not the one’s believing a lie?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I guess, in a limited fashion, the old adage is true.
"Tell a lie long enough, and people will believe it."
Your effort to make sinners as beloved by God as those who obey Him is a futile endeavor.
It is written..."For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:4-6)

Did not Jesus say he came not for the healthy but for sinners? Or that Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? Why would God create something that you say he hates, that sounds more like the gods of old not the God of creation.

 

[Clare73]

As I understand the day of Atonement , the high priest would go into the Holy of Holy's and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and God would cover over the sins of Israel all of Israel. There is no mention that I know of, of there being a conditional covering for only those who believed it.

However, covering over the sins of Israel on the Day of Atonement was not salvation, it was cleansing.

The Day of Atonement was for the purpose of cleansing the tabernacle and courtyard, because the tabernacle was in the midst of the people which defiled the tabernacle by their sin (Lev 16:16) making it an unfit dwelling place for the presence of God, which must be atoned for (cleansed of) the sin of the high priest, the priests and the people so that God could continue to dwell with them.

 

[Hentenza]

Paul is just stating an truth that if you are in christ you are a new creation, the statement that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself is a statement of truth but its not finished yet, that is why it says we are to be telling others about the God reconciling the world, its still ongoing.
God reconciling the world to himself is a truth that will happen by the end but we are still in process.

God is indeed reconciling the world to Himself, however, only those that justified by the grace of God will be saved. A clearer teaching of reconciliation is in Romans 5. Here are verses 1 -11.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous person; though perhaps for the good person someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also celebrate in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:1-11 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we | New American Standard Bible - NAS

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we

bible.com

If we are not justified by the grace of God then we are not reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

You need to study the " pronounced it as heresy in 553 ad" this is not true, the council rejected a group of people who were distorting what Origen believed about the pre-existence of souls, also that council probably was not legit anyway if you give any credence to the council. The council also said Mary was a eternal virgin going against scripture.

“If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and impious men, let him be anathema.” Page 465 section IX.

https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0553-0553,_Concilium_Constantinopolitanum_II,_Documenta_Omnia_%5BSchaff%5D,_EN.pdf

Please read what was actually said. Many other topic were discussed and one of them was universal restoration.

Christian Universal Restoration is not a philosophy but a biblical truth, many verses in scripture proclaim it to be what Gods plan is, especially if you look at the Greek and not the English translation.
So no I have not taken it out of context, it is those who try to explain away that God will reconcile the world to himself that are taking it out of context.

Yes, you continue to take the verses out of context. Worse yet, you ignore the verses that do not support your philosophy. For example, using 2 Cor. 5 but ignoring Romans 5. Paul has never taught universalism.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You continue to take verses out of context. I would suggest to read the chapter and surrounding verses to understand what Paul is talking about.

“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris | New American Standard Bib

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris

bible.com

Paul speaks how if anyone who is in Christ (if is conditional so is not all) is a new creation. The pronoun “us” and “we” refers to believers who have become a new creation. To the rest of the world Paul encourages the ambassadors of Christ to make an appeal to those that are not yet being reborn as a new creation on behalf of Christ to be reconciled with God. These verses do not help you.

Paul is saying be reconciled to the fact, that God is not counting sins against people. Paul is not saying God is counting against the majority of people, but not counting for a few, which is the futile case you're attempting by context. It doesn't compute.

Universalism is a philosophy that some to attempt to justify what they cannot reconcile. In essence is a judgement of God. Universalism is not biblical and the early church came to this realization and pronounced it as heresy in 553ad.

Uh, that also is not true. Firstly, there are many different forms of Universalism. SOME, you may be surprised to know even hold to eternal forever and ever hell for the devil and his messengers. So "not all" are getting into heaven, are they?

Even people who believe in hell hold to a form of universalism because they too believe ALL devils, universally, will be in hell/the LoF.

Secondly in Roman catholic orthodoxy it is 'heterodox' meaning it's not common but it is allowed to believe ALL people will either be in heaven or in purgatory. Belief in hell for any people is not therefore mandatory in orthodoxy. It's acceptable to believe otherwise. NOR have any in orthodoxy determined from the Bible, that there is a single named person that will be in hell/the LoF. There are no named examples. Which at a minimum should hold out the possibility of Prevailing over all, Grace of God in Christ.

The Episcopal church has a similar position. Hell for people is not mandatory.

If you ever rolled up your sleeves and studied it out, you'd come to a logical conclusion, that loving ALL our neighbors is actually Biblically legit.