Iran Erupts: Crowds Burn US Flags and Swear to Ayatollah

[Desk trauma]

That is a popular justification narrative. History says the war with Japan would have ended within months, before the end of 1945 had the U.S. not dropped the atomic bombs. The combined death toll is estimated to be between 145,000 and 246,000 people. Civilians. Women. Children. Innocents for the most part. It is hard to reconcile the narrative that it saved lives.

It reconciles when the alternative is continued fire bombing of Japanese cities. Are those numbers some how less awful if distributed across more bombings?

 

[rjs330]

That is a popular justification narrative. History says the war with Japan would have ended within months, before the end of 1945 had the U.S. not dropped the atomic bombs. The combined death toll is estimated to be between 145,000 and 246,000 people. Civilians. Women. Children. Innocents for the most part. It is hard to reconcile the narrative that it saved lives.

The truth is we dont know how many lives would have been lost had we not dropped rhe bomb. Most estimates dictate rhat it would have been far more if we had not. Some estimates reaching a million. In an invasion case it would have been rhe allies who would have suffered the greatest loss most likely. We saved an enormous amount of allied lives by dropping rhe bomb. That was the biggest reason to do so. It was rhe right thing to do. Far too much allied blood had been spilled to free rhe world from tyranny. It would have been immoral to sacrifice more if we had the means to end this in one stroke.

I understand the bomb is a horrific weapon with great devastation. The death it brings is awful. And I get the fact that its a terrible weapon. One must weigh in this instance if we dont drop it we lose more precious blood of our own vs saving it, we save it.

 

[durangodawood]

It reconciles when the alternative is continued fire bombing of Japanese cities. Are those numbers some how less awful if distributed across more bombings?

Also dont neglect sheer bloody mindedness as an American motive, even if largely subconscious. I think people deep into war, especially one they didnt really start, sometimes just lash out. So.... dont go starting wars and putting other people in that position.

 

[trophy33]

Has Iran lived up to the standard you articulate here?

If you are asking about the recent events, then I would say that yes, Iran was at least closer to it.

That is probably why many people here are against the strikes even though they are not the fans of Iran or even of a nuclear Iran. We must function within some accepted legal framework, if we do not want lawlessness or a system based on emotions or who likes who.

I think the French president summarized it well:

"French President Emmanuel Macron said Monday that U.S. strikes against Iranian nuclear sites over the weekend violated international law — even though France shares Washington’s aim of preventing Tehran from developing nuclear weapons."

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[bèlla]

Welcome to today’s production…Tidings from Tehran

Trump warns Iran about the bombings.
Iran warns Trump about their attack.
No one is hurt in either.
A ceasefire is announced.
Both sides attack.
Israel is blamed and we’re back in action.

Some are suggesting that Bibi was played and the exchange between the US and Iran was theater. Others are suggesting that Trump was duped and Iran didn’t agree or neither wanted to stop. When the conflict began he said they’d have to fight it out and maybe that’s true. Once you develop the practice of responding with violence it’s a hard habit to break and that’s true for both.

If they want to slug it out so be it. Americans shouldn’t be caught in the crossfire or on high alert for something that doesn’t involve us. They’ve had 10 days of battle and know what to expect. If they want to keep going they will. It isn’t our responsibility to save Israel from itself.

~bella

 

[seeking.IAM]

Apparently, "cease fire" and "agreement" don't mean to Israel and Iran what POTUS thinks it means.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Some are suggesting that Bibi was played and the exchange between the US and Iran was theater.

The reason why they're saying it was "theater" (for Iran's benefit) was due to the fact that Iran gave an ample early warning to both Qatar and US authorities about what they were going to do. (which allowed them to vacate the base, and close airspace). It was an exact 1-for-1 with the number of bombs the US used, and they purposely pick a target that was far away from people and that was covered by a Patriot PAC-3 missile defense system.

Basically it was just a way for Iran to save face so they could tell their people "hey, we did something" (they can't do nothing obviously), but in a way that would actually be seen as a de-escalation by the US.

If they were really looking to do a true "retaliation", they wouldn't have given advanced notice and they would've picked a target that wasn't covered with an advanced defense system (that they knew would intercept them)


The long-short of it

Air defenses in Qatar intercepted 13 Iranian missiles, while another was allowed to crash harmlessly off-target. The Qatar Defense Ministry said that it had intercepted the missiles and that the attack resulted in no casualties. Iranian media outlets described the strike as "devastating."


so yeah...I think the "theater" assessment is somewhat valid.

Iran gets to use their state propaganda to tell their people that they delivered a "devastating blow" to the US, while in fact, there were no casualties, no damage, and the only actual loss was a little bit of ordinance used by the missile defense system.

 

[bèlla]

If they were really looking to do a true "retaliation", they wouldn't have given advanced notice and they would've picked a target that wasn't covered with an advanced defense system (that they knew would intercept them)

They weren’t looking for retaliation because they have their uranium and I don’t think they’re bluffing. They knew when the bombs were coming and many suggested it might have been empty. Trump said it was done and Bible bombed the same spot the following day.

Their beef is with Israel for the unprovoked attack. Not us. That’s why they attacked them after the bombs were dropped. They won’t allow them to get away with it. That’s the larger issue and it isn’t hard to understand.

If someone approached your property and started vandalizing it without cause the majority would respond. They’re not going to allow them to destroy their home. The methods they undertake may differ. But few would ignore it. And that’s where the risk comes in. They may underestimate your response and he did.

These are lessons you learn on the playground. Don’t start anything you can’t finish. But there’s always that kid who goes too far because of their siblings. They’ll start trouble because they have backup and it hinders most who challenge them. But there‘s always someone in the crowd who’s unfazed. They won’t be disrespected and when you’ve lived long enough you recognize the type. Some will give a slap on the wrist and others will fight to the death. You have to know who you’re dealing with before you raise your hand.

~bella

 

[BCP1928]

That we agree with. Its what ive been saying throughout these threads. Far too often leftists dont get it. They use the western mindset and apply it to the middle east mindset. Islamists do not think like us and if you dont understand that you will never understand how to deal with it.

I'm in an even worse position. I've lived and worked in Muslim countries for extended periods of time including a several weeks at the end of last year in North Africa with my wife, who is openly Jewish. We spoke frankly about the situation with Jews and Muslims who lived there. We speak Arabic and have studiec the language and the religion. There is no way you are going to convince me that you aren't full of s___.

 

[Postvieww]

My guess is that Trump was elected mainly because of the immigration crisis, too much wokeness and bad economic situation. These are basically his only mandates.

You guess wrong. The mandate of any US president is to defend this nation from any foreign threat. The nuclear program of Iran most definitely qualifies. Iran has been killing Americans for years thru proxies and shouting death to America. Anyone who does not see Iran as a threat with a nuclear weapon is not living in reality.

 

[Postvieww]

If you are asking about the recent events, then I would say that yes, Iran was at least closer to it.

That is probably why many people here are against the strikes even though they are not the fans of Iran or even of a nuclear Iran. We must function within some accepted legal framework, if we do not want lawlessness or a system based on emotions or who likes who.

I think the French president summarized it well:

"French President Emmanuel Macron said Monday that U.S. strikes against Iranian nuclear sites over the weekend violated international law — even though France shares Washington’s aim of preventing Tehran from developing nuclear weapons."

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If “international law” had any teeth to it we would not have to deal with Iran ourselves through force.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Apparently Israel claimed that Iran broke the deal. I wouldn't trust Netanyahu further than I could throw him. A man who has troops mowing down people waiting for aid trucks in Gaza. From the same link I gave earlier:

'The military says it has fired warning shots at people it said approached its forces in a suspicious manner.'

A suspicious manner? These people are starving. Warning shots? 25 killed, 146 wounded. That's quite a warning. The guy is a war criminal. He will pay for what he has done and what he is doing.

There was something about the death of the family of 4 that seems to have set Israel off.

And in the world of film we saw footage.

They retaliated. I don't like that they did, they should have waited and not reacted and seen what Khamenei did next.

But because I disagree with the reaction doesn't make them war criminals. We all know Iran broke the ceasefire first. And it's Iran intentionally targeting civilians.

 

[Postvieww]

I'm in an even worse position. I've lived and worked in Muslim countries for extended periods of time including a several weeks at the end of last year in North Africa with my wife, who is openly Jewish. We spoke frankly about the situation with Jews and Muslims who lived there. We speak Arabic and have studiec the language and the religion. There is no way you are going to convince me that you aren't full of s___.

Those are strong words! Tell me from your experience with Islam what are the religious goals of RADICAL Islam such as the leadership of Iran?

 

[BCP1928]

Those are strong words! Tell me from your experience with Islam what are the religious goals of RADICAL Islam such as the leadership of Iran?

I'd be more interested to know what your religious goals are now that you have rejected the Nicene Creed as a basis of the Christian faith.

 

[NxNW]

That is a popular justification narrative. History says the war with Japan would have ended within months, before the end of 1945 had the U.S. not dropped the atomic bombs. The combined death toll is estimated to be between 145,000 and 246,000 people. Civilians. Women. Children. Innocents for the most part. It is hard to reconcile the narrative that it saved lives.

I'd recommend you read the book Downfall, about that very topic. Japan would not have surrendered, and the invasion would have killed a half million. Not that I support Trump here.

 

[Postvieww]

I'd be more interested to know what your religious goals are now that you have rejected the Nicene Creed as a basis of the Christian faith.

Since you answer my question with a question I will do the same. Please site the post or posts of mine that did what you claim.

 

[BCP1928]

If by "my idea about", you're referring to the tangible evidence I posted showing how an element of the left will blindly glom on to anything perceived to be "against the conservatives", my noticing that shouldn't be the thing that's concerning you... (nor is it merely "my idea", there's literally pictures and videos of them doing it)


..the thing that should be concerning you is that the aforementioned types of people are likely a contributor to why Democrats are struggling with poll numbers like this:

View attachment 366677
CNN's Harry Enten Unpacks Democrats' low approval ratings



Yes, I've tried talking to several Democrats and told them they need to do a better job distancing themselves from the looneys so that they can win over those of us who are moderates again and I could actually have a reason to vote in the next election, but they don't seem to want to take that advice, and merely want to keep the focus on bad Trump is.

Evidently they've decided to stick with the approach of "Because the other side is a dumpster fire, we'll foist upon people a slightly smaller dumpster with a little less fire in it, and just try to keep the focus on how bad the other guys are"

OK, so we're all in mindless lock step on all the political issues. What's your point?

 

[BCP1928]

Since you answer my question with a question I will do the same. Please site the post or posts of mine that did what you claim.

I heard nothing from you as a party to the conversation when Hazelponi rejected it. You were the one who asked for a statement of my faith, I assumed from your silence that you were willing to let him answer for you.

 

[Postvieww]

I heard nothing from you as a party to the conversation when Hazelponi rejected it. You were the one who asked for a statement of my faith, I assumed from your silence that you were willing to let him answer for you.

I’ll speak for myself. You should assume nothing about my beliefs. I didn't assuming anything about yours, I just said I wanted to understand them because of a comment you had made earlier. Not my intent to judge your beliefs , and I told you that. I did thank you for your response without critique.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I'd recommend you read the book Downfall, about that very topic. Japan would not have surrendered, and the invasion would have killed a half million. Not that I support Trump here.

The prevailing opinion seems to disagree. I will keep the book in mind, though. Thank you for the recommendation.