If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Strong in Him]

If forgiveness depends on repentance, one must be born again to repent.

Indeed, after he sovereignly (Jn 3:6-8) rebirths them, for they are spiritually dead and can see (understand) nothing spiritual (Jn 3:3-5), it is all foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14) , they can make no spiritual response of any kind.
They must first be brought to spiritual life in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to even see anything spiritual.

Being born again means accepting Christ and receiving eternal life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12. It means we move from death to life, Romans 6:2-3, Romans 6:23; from the realm of the flesh to the realm of the Spirit, Romans 8:5-8. It means we become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, children of God, John 1:12, heirs with Jesus, Romans 8:17 and reconciled to God, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

How can any of that happen before a person has confessed their sins?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's all about transformation. Those who are not born again by the Holy Spirit cannot be translated into the new heaven and the new earth. The data of their being is completely corrupted by sin, even if they mean well.

That's why being born again is a must.

Without the transformation, they just writhe in agony unable to experience a reality where God is all and in all.

 

[Clare73]

Being born again means accepting Christ and receiving eternal life,

No, being born again means going from spiritual death to eternal life (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit to do so.

John 3:36, 1 John 5:12. It means we move from death to life, Romans 6:2-3, Romans 6:23; from the realm of the flesh to the realm of the Spirit, Romans 8:5-8. It means we become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, children of God, John 1:12, heirs with Jesus, Romans 8:17 and reconciled to God, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

How can any of that happen before a person has confessed their sins?

Man is spiritually dead and can do nothing spiritual; e.g., confessing sin, until he is born again into eternal life by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit.
Rebirth, eternal life and faith, all by the Holy Spirit, must happen before a person confesses their sins.

 

[Strong in Him]

No, being born again means going from spiritual death to eternal life (Jn 3:3-5)

Which is what happens when someone accepts/receives Jesus.
Accepting Jesus doesn't mean that a person believes, intellectually, that Jesus existed. It means they believe that they have sinned against God and are far from him, that they cannot get to heaven on their own - it's not about good deeds or being a good person. It means accepting that Jesus died for their sin; that Jesus is the only Way to the Father, John 14:6, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29 and the only name by which we can be saved, Acts 4:12. John, and Jesus, said that whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, John 1:12, John 3:13, 36, John 6:40, 1 John 5:12.

Man is spiritually dead and can do nothing spiritual; e.g., confessing sin, until he is born again into eternal life

When God created Adam, he did not actually live until God blew into his nostrils, Genesis 2:7. The Hebrew word for breath also means Spirit.
John says that there is nothing that was not created through Jesus - everyone and everything in the universe was made through him, John 1:3.
Genesis says that God created man(human)kind in his own image, Genesis 1:26-27.
So although sinners, people are made by God in his image and have his breath, Spirit, in them. There is something of God in everyone, which is why people have consciences, know right from wrong, have spirits and are spiritual. The devil wouldn't give people consciences to know right from wrong; it is from God.
Most don't know that this is God - people say things like "the universe is telling me ....", "it is fate/luck/karma" etc. People ARE searching and trying to reach out. Look at those who read horoscopes because they want to know their future. Go into a bookshop and look at the section of spirituality - New Age, crystals, reading palms, auras and so on. I believe that this desire to find the meaning of life comes from God himself. Non Christians talk about "getting to heaven" or say that loved ones who have died are "looking down on them." Many, in hospital, in times of illness, tragedy or natural disaster call out to God or ask believers to "say a prayer for me". I believe that desire is from God - everything that exists was made because of, and through, Jesus. Non Christians have gone to church for a family baptism/wedding/funeral, for Christmas or Mothering Sunday, have been challenged by the Gospel and later believed. And I have read several testimonies of children who have accepted Christ/talk to Jesus, their friend, say prayers etc. I have heard of babies being prayed for/over while they were still in the womb. Children are naturally open to God and able to accept what they are told. That is why the OT says "train a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it", Proverbs 22:6. It is doubtless why the Israelites were instructed to teach God's commandments to their children, Deuteronomy 6:7, and why Jesus said "let the children come to me", Mark 10:14.

So no, I don't believe it's true that children, or anyone, can do nothing spiritual.
People may not believe in God or realise that it is God, and not the "universe" who is looking out for them. But God is still there. He made unbelievers in his image and it is his breath within them that gives them life.
A person may not have committed themselves to God or been filled with his Spirit - that doesn't mean they can't cry out to him in prayer. Even the most basic prayer, "God, if you are there, help/save me" has been answered.

 

[Clare73]

Which is what happens when someone accepts/receives Jesus.
Accepting Jesus doesn't mean that a person believes, intellectually, that Jesus existed.

It's not about "accepting" Jesus, it's about believing in and trusting on him and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin.

 

[Strong in Him]

It's not about "accepting" Jesus, it's about believing in and trusting on him and his atoning work for the remission of one's sin.

Accepting means believing and trusting - believing he was who he said he was, believing he died for us and trusting in him, not ourselves, for salvation.
I don't see how it's possible to accept and trust that our sin separated us from God but that through Jesus we are forgiven and reconciled, without confessing our sin.

 

[Der Alte]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?
Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?
These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

I believe the Bible not the bleeding heart arguments I am seeing here. God is never so cruel that He would condemn innocent infants, children, the intellectually challenged etc.
to eternal punishment. But that don't mean there ain't none.
Various posters have found passages which, IMHO, are quoted out-of-context and which appear to say that all mankind sinner and saint alike will be saved. But I offer these passages.

Jeremiah 13:10​

(10) This evil people, [Israel] which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.​

Jeremiah 13:13-14​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will NOT pity, NOR spare, NOR have mercy, but destroy them.​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus speaking] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

Matthew 25:41-46​

(41) Then shall he [Jesus] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:​

(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.​

(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?​

(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.​

(46) And [these shall go away into everlasting punishment[vss 42-46]: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Romans 1:24​

(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​

Romans 1:26​

(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

Romans 1:28​

(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

Last chapter no more death no more salvation. 17 vss. the end.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

 

[Dan Perez]

Being born again means accepting Christ and receiving eternal life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12. It means we move from death to life, Romans 6:2-3, Romans 6:23; from the realm of the flesh to the realm of the Spirit, Romans 8:5-8. It means we become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, children of God, John 1:12, heirs with Jesus, Romans 8:17 and reconciled to God, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

How can any of that happen before a person has confessed their sins?

Any ones thoughts as to what Rom 6:3 says , That as many were BAPTIZED /. BAPTIZO. , into Christ Jesus.

were BAPTIZED /. into His Death. ??

And the Greek word Water /. Hydor. is. not. in. the Greek Text.

So how are WE. Baptized into His Death. ?/

dan p

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Any ones thoughts as to what Rom 6:3 says , That as many were BAPTIZED /. BAPTIZO. , into Christ Jesus.

were BAPTIZED /. into His Death. ??

And the Greek word Water /. Hydor. is. not. in. the Greek Text.

So how are WE. Baptized into His Death. ?/

dan p

He died for all humanity so we are all included because of what he did.

 

[Dan Perez]

He died for all humanity so we are all included because of what he did.

And the question IS. , So how are we Baptized into His Death ?

And here is and easy one , How were All Baptized / BAPTIZO. , unto Moses in the Cloud and in the Sea v ?

dan p

 

[Jeff Saunders]

And the question IS. , So how are we Baptized into His Death ?

And here is and easy one , How were All Baptized / BAPTIZO. , unto Moses in the Cloud and in the Sea v ?

dan p

2 Cor 5:14-15 " For the love of the Anointed constrains us, having reached this judgement: that one died on behalf of all; all then have died; And he died on behalf of all so that the living should live no longer for themselves, but for the one who has died and been raised on their behalf."
This is how we are baptized into his death, Jesus died for all and we too have all died with him but darkness keeps most from seeing what is true in them.

 

[Der Alte]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

Incorrect this demonstrates how scriptural doctrines can be twisted and distorted to fit a false teaching. Nothing posted above is scriptural.

 

[Der Alte]

Keeping in mind that we are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
born with the guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-14),
which is removed only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (Ro 3:25).

And I have not posted anything to the contrary.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, entirely ignore the scriptures above about God getting what he wants and cherry pick the scriptures that prove that Jesus fails and ends up torturing them forever.

It appears you are the one doing the ignoring to make scripture match your assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[Clare73]

And I have not posted anything to the contrary.

Nor have you reconciled what is Biblically contrary to your post.

 

[PatrickTate]

...could a loving parent justify killing their infant child in order to ensure that their child spends forever in Heaven?

Conversely, is it reckless and unloving for a parent to allow their offspring to reach the age of accountability and risk that they will spend forever being tortured by Jesus in Hell?

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

During his near death experience Robert Marshall was shown the answer to this exact question.

What Happens to Babies Stillborn | 44 Hours In Heaven Ministries

www.44hoursinheavenministries.org

Question:


What happens to babies that are stillborn or aborted, or die within a short period of time after birth?


This was a question I am happy to share how Jesus explained it to me.



At first, there will be children and adults in appearance because there will be no chronological age as we experience now. The appearance of a child in Heaven and the New Earth will be that of the age of the child when they died. In the case of a stillborn or aborted baby, they will be that of a newborn. The child will mature slowly, physically and spiritually, until reaching their individual age of perfection.


Jesus explained that even if an infant or child has not committed a personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because inherited sin,(original sin) is passed on from our parents at birth, (Psalms 51: 5 [NIV], “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”). Inherited or original sin relates to our internal qualities or character. Infants, like all people, die, demonstrating that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, with physical and spiritual death being the result of Adam’s original sin.


Jesus shared with me that the concept of the “age of accountability” is not a chronological age, but rather
if a child or person, because of age or other mental capacities, is truly incapable of understanding and making an intellectual or morally accountable decision about God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature or rejection of Jesus Christ.

Prior to reaching that age or point in their life they are “automatically” saved by God’s grace in Christ. God’s reasoning is that, if someone is truly incapable of making a decision for or against Christ, then God will extend His grace and mercy to that individual.


Romans 1:20 NIV states, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” According to this, a person's guilt before God is based, in part, on intellectual or moral accountability and a conscious rejection of what can be “clearly seen” of God’s existence, eternality, power, and or belief and acceptance of Jesus paying the price for all mankind sins on the cross and accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.



Therefore, if a child or person, because of age or other mental capacities, is truly incapable of understanding and making an intellectual or morally accountable decision for or against Christ, then God will extend His grace and mercy to that individual.


If a child is aborted, or the mother suffers a miscarriage, or the child is stillborn, that child will, by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance to heaven as a newborn baby.

However, once a child is born, if he or she should die before reaching their individual “age of accountability,” that child will, also by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance to heaven.

Jesus does all things out of Love, and His handling of the early separation of child and mother is no different. Jesus said that when a mother dies and enters heaven, her child will be waiting for her. She will still have the same relationship of mother-daughter or mother-son of the child who died earlier.

In heaven, parents will have restored, the love and joy that they never were able to experience, watching their child grow up and mature to the age of perfection and do so in an environment of perfect peace, joy, and righteousness of Heaven and the New Earth. This should be an extremely comforting thought for parents who have lost children at an early stage of life, miscarriage, or abortion.



Jesus pointed out that His death was sufficient payment for the sins of all of mankind, including the whole world. We are to remember that the entire world is under the curse of sin, including animals, plants, trees, and every living creature

Jesus pointed out that His death was sufficient payment for all sins, not only the sins of those who come to Him in faith. The fact that His death was sufficient for all sin allows God to apply that payment to those who were never capable of believing or never had the opportunity.