Does man have a freewill ?

[Spiritual Jew]

Perhaps a legal example would help:

Suppose an invalid borrowed money from you on the promise that he would repay you from his father's inheritance at his father's death.
The invalid has contracted a just debt, which he is responsible to pay.
But suppose when the invalid comes into the inheritance, a con artist cons him out of the whole inheritance before his debt is paid, and the con artist is no where to be found. The invalid is still responsible for his just debt, although he is unable to pay.
The principle here is that responsibility to pay is not based in ability to pay, but in what is justly owed.
The same is true spiritually. Responsibility to obey God is not based on man's ability to pay God, but on what man justly owes God.
God is the center of the universe, not man (Isa 45:9, Jer 18:6). He has a right to obedience from man (Lk 17:10) and, therefore, obedience is justly owed to him. Man's impotency does not release him from that just debt, because man's responsibility does not issue from his ability to pay, but from what he justly owes God.

That doesn't help at all. Try again. You're not addressing what I said here.

They can't choose either one, but that impotency does not remove the obligation of their just debt to do so.

I don't believe you are making any effort at all to see my point. You say people can't choose whether to glorify God and be thankful to Him or not? Why is it that no one has any excuse not to do so then (Romans 1:18-21)? That makes no sense. If someone is not able to do so, then that would be a great excuse for not doing so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If a person believes it means when Jesus saved him or her He gave them the Gift of Faith.

That means you believe that whether someone believes or not is entirely up to Jesus/God, so you would be lying to someone if you told them that what they had to do (not what someone else had to do) to be saved is believe in Jesus in order to be saved if they are not one of the ones that God supposedly gives faith to.

Those who believe in the True Jesus were already ordained/appointed to eternal life Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

That does not say they were ordained to believe, it says they were ordained to eternal life. Those who believe are ordained to eternal life (John 3:16). You are twisting that text to fit your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Men are dead by nature, dead in sin. Not sick, Grace finds the elect dead in sin needing to be quicken, made alive Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

It's not surprising that you are a Calvinist since you are apparently a robot who just repeats himself over and over again. Why are you not addressing what I'm saying? Why are you refusing to acknowledge what Jesus said?

So, I see you insist on denying what Jesus taught. May He have mercy on your soul for ignoring His teachings.
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Is this passage missing from your Bible? Jesus said sinners are sick. Sick people are capable of acknowledging that they are sick, can't heal themselves and need the physician to heal them. You, in contrast, say they are dead and unable to acknowledge their sins while reaching out to Christ for forgiveness and salvation, which blatantly contradicts what Jesus Himself taught.

To be dead in sins does not mean someone is unable to acknowledge their sins or to put their trust in Christ. It means someone is separated from a relationship with God. You don't understand what the word dead means. Even bodily death does not result in no consciousness, but rather is a separation of the body from the soul and spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

That means you believe that whether someone believes or not is entirely up to Jesus/God, so you would be lying to someone if you told them that what they had to do (not what someone else had to do) to be saved is believe in Jesus in order to be saved if they are not one of the ones that God supposedly gives faith to.


That does not say they were ordained to believe, it says they were ordained to eternal life. Those who believe are ordained to eternal life (John 3:16). You are twisting that text to fit your doctrine.

When a person believes it means the Salvation God has given them works faith in their heart causing them to believe. It was given to them to believe Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When a person believes it means the Salvation God has given them works faith in their heart causing them to believe. It was given to them to believe Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That is not talking about God causing anyone to believe. That is talking about the privilege and opportunity to believe in Christ and to suffer for Him because the result of that is eternal life and eternal rewards.

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Do you also try to say that God gives them suffering in the form of persecution and causes them to suffer? Do you ignore the last part of the verse where it talks about suffering for Christ's sake being given unto them? To be consistent with how you interpret the first part of the verse, that is what you would have to believe. But, it's clearly not talking about God giving them suffering and causing them to suffer. And it's not talking about God causing them to believe in Christ, either. It's talking about them having the privilege being given the opportunity to serve Christ even though that often involves having to suffer for His sake just as Paul did when he was put in prison because of his faith in Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is not talking about God causing anyone to believe. That is talking about the privilege and opportunity to believe in Christ and to suffer for Him because the result of that is eternal life and eternal rewards.

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Do you also try to say that God gives them suffering in the form of persecution and causes them to suffer? Do you ignore the last part of the verse where it talks about suffering for Christ's sake being given unto them? To be consistent with how you interpret the first part of the verse, that is what you would have to believe. But, it's clearly not talking about God giving them suffering and causing them to suffer. And it's not talking about God causing them to believe in Christ, either. It's talking about them having the privilege being given the opportunity to serve Christ even though that often involves having to suffer for His sake just as Paul did when he was put in prison because of his faith in Christ.

Im finish explaining to you, you not able to believe the truth

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Im finish explaining to you, you not able to believe the truth

You need to be finished with butchering the scriptures and taking them out of context while ignoring scriptures like Mark 3:26-27 which teach that sinners are sick and in need of the physician (Jesus). It's unbelievable how you just blatantly ignore and deny scriptures like that. How can you live with yourself when you blatantly deny what Jesus taught in Mark 3:26-27 which is that sinners are spiritually sick? Sick people are capable of recognizing and acknowledging that they are sick and can't heal themselves and are able to ask the physician to heal them instead.

 

[Hentenza]

So after 15 pages I still have not read the answer. Lots of verses though. The question of whether men (or women lol) have free will boils down to does man have the free will to accept or reject God? Because if we do then our future is in our hands and nothing is predestined.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So after 15 pages I still have not read the answer. Lots of verses though. The question of whether men (or women lol) have free will boils down to does man have the free will to accept or reject God? Because if we do then our future is in our hands and nothing is predestined.

Both are true. Why do you make it one or the other?

God predestined that whoever believes in His Son would have eternal life. He did not predestine specific people to believe and the rest to not believe, He predestined eternal life for anyone who believes. He makes people responsible to choose whether or not to believe and any who believe are predestined to receive eternal life. If you deny free will, then you deny what is taught in many scriptures. You need to be able to allow that scripture teaches both free will and predestination instead of thinking it only teaches one or the other because it clearly teaches both.

 

[Hentenza]

Both are true. Why do you make it one or the other?

They are one and the same. People can reject or accept God.

God predestined that whoever believes in His Son would have eternal life.
He did not predestine specific people to believe and the rest to not believe, He predestined eternal life for anyone who believes. He makes people responsible to choose whether or not to believe and any who believe are predestined to receive eternal life. If you deny free will, then you deny what is taught in many scriptures. You need to be able to allow that scripture teaches both free will and predestination instead of thinking it only teaches one or the other because it clearly teaches both.

We are almost there. Prior knowledge is not predestination. Just because He knows doesn’t mean that He predestined. Say that I am standing on top of a building looking at a two way street. I see two cars going toward each other and realized that they are going to hit. Did I predestined the cars to hit or did I just had foreknowledge that it was going to happen? God’s ways are His own.

BTW- I’m fully aware of Romans 8 and other verses that teach predestination. I just think that it goes a bit further.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

They are one and the same. People can reject or accept God.

What do you mean they (predestination and free will) are the same?

We are almost there. Prior knowledge is not predestination. Just because He knows doesn’t mean that He predestined.

I don't know what you're talking about. Please try to speak more clearly.

Say that I am standing on top of a building looking at a two way street. I see two cars going toward each other and realized that they are going to hit. Did I predestined the cars to hit or did I just had foreknowledge that it was going to happen? God’s ways are His own.

Scripture clearly teaches predestination, so why act as if it doesn't? But, the question is, what does it mean? As I said, I believe it refers to God having predestined that whoever believes in His Son would be saved and have eternal life rather than it being a case that He predestined certain people to believe which would contradict all the verses which teach that God wants all people to repent and be saved and that Jesus died for the sins of all people.

BTW- I’m fully aware of Romans 8 and other verses that teach predestination. I just think that it goes a bit further.

What do you mean by this? Please speak more clearly.

 

[Hentenza]

What do you mean they (predestination and free will) are the same?


I don't know what you're talking about. Please try to speak more clearly.


Scripture clearly teaches predestination, so why act as if it doesn't? But, the question is, what does it mean? As I said, I believe it refers to God having predestined that whoever believes in His Son would be saved and have eternal life rather than it being a case that He predestined certain people to believe which would contradict all the verses which teach that God wants all people to repent and be saved and that Jesus died for the sins of all people.


What do you mean by this? Please speak more clearly.

It was clear. Let me ask you a question. What is God’s mechanism to predestine? Why does he predestine some and not others?

 

[Rose_bud]

Im not surprised you are typical of all work salvation folk

I've encountered posters like yourself who do not engage with the arguments or counter arguments. Its not very productive and unfortunately not very edifying, so to protect my time I have a bit of a disclaimer. I haven't had to use it for a while. But I am more than willing to enforce this again.

upfront disclaimer
If this discussion is going to digress into a back and forth with no meaningful engagement. I politely excuse myself.

 

[Brightfame52]

I've encountered posters like yourself who do not engage with the arguments or counter arguments. Its not very productive and unfortunately not very edifying, so to protect my time I have a bit of a disclaimer. I haven't had to use it for a while. But I am more than willing to enforce this again.

upfront disclaimer
If this discussion is going to digress into a back and forth with no meaningful engagement. I politely excuse myself.

Yeah please move right along. Also BTW I normally dont mention this, but whenever I pick out verses of scripture I'm pretty familiar with the overall context from which the scripture comes out of. I have a Bachelors of Theology from a Bible College, and during the course of studies, we went over all the books of the bible, if not critically at least summary's, and I have engaged in all kind of biblical encounters and debates, discussions over the last 4 decades. So you really haven't stated anything I haven't been exposed to already. And when its all said and done, you present a message wherein salvation is conditioned on man ! Take care

 

[Clare73]

That doesn't help at all. Try again. You're not addressing what I said here.


I don't believe you are making any effort at all to see my point. You say people can't choose whether to glorify God and be thankful to Him or not? Why is it that no one has any excuse not to do so then (Romans 1:18-21)? That makes no sense. If someone is not able to do so, then that would be a great excuse for not doing so.

See posts #15, #108 and #278.

The issue here is not inability to understand, but inability to believe.
That's above my pay grade.

 

[CoreyD]

Does man have a freewill ?

God's word says yes, he does.
Philemon 1:14
But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.
See also 1 Corinthians 9:16-18

I'm not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Many persons do ask this question, but for millions of people, this question has already been answered.

Man though he has a will, his will isn't free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

That's an argument many propose, in order to suggest that freewill is an illusion, but the Bible shows repeatedly that argument is not in keeping with facts.
One fact is that man constantly goes against God's will.

For example, ay Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said, in part... Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
Please see also, Matthew 21:28-46
People choose not to do the will of God. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

That contrasts Jesus, who freely chose to do the will of God, and align with it. John 5:30; John 6:38-40

Persons may argue that if persons go against God's will, it is because that was God's will, however, the following show that is not true either.
Genesis 6:1-8; 1 Samuel 15:10, 11; Jeremiah 7:29-31

Does it make God weak and incompetent, since persons can go against the will of the omnipotent God? No.
It means simply, that God has endowed man with freewill, and allows man the freedom to exercise that will.
Why?
God made man in his image, with his attributes, and just as God is free, he wants his creation to be free. 2 Corinthians 3:17

But The Spirit is THE LORD JEHOVAH, and wherever The Spirit of THE LORD JEHOVAH is, there is freedom

Freedom is a beautiful gift, but just like everything else, it can be abused, as we saw, at the very beginning, when Adam and Eve abused their God given freedom of choice, and suffered the consequences.

Yes, there are consequences to abusing our gift of freedom.
For example, man can do some amazing things, but some take this freedom for granted.
Your Chances Of Dying Ranked By Sport and Activity
Yes, there are limits on our freedom. There are certain laws we cannot defy, without suffering lost.
Deuteronomy 30:19

I'm going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Yes, Nebuchadnezzar learned a lesson, the hard way.
He learned that God doeth according to his will. That is, whatever God wants to do, he will do.
However, it does not say whatever man has done was what God wants him to do.
It also does not say that God does only what we see being done.
There is a stark contrast between the scripture, and those statements.

Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

Yes, there are many scriptures in the Bible that we want to be careful to use in context.
For example, Jeremiah says that it is not in man to direct his steps, in that man was not designed to rule himself.... and this is true, as can be seen from history.
However, these scriptures are not saying that whatever a man does, this was God's will.

God allows man to carry out man's will, even though the results are not always desirable.

 

[Brightfame52]

God's word says yes, he does.
Philemon 1:14
But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.
See also 1 Corinthians 9:16-18


Many persons do ask this question, but for millions of people, this question has already been answered.


That's an argument many propose, in order to suggest that freewill is an illusion, but the Bible shows repeatedly that argument is not in keeping with facts.
One fact is that man constantly goes against God's will.

For example, ay Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said, in part... Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
Please see also, Matthew 21:28-46
People choose not to do the will of God. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

That contrasts Jesus, who freely chose to do the will of God, and align with it. John 5:30; John 6:38-40

Persons may argue that if persons go against God's will, it is because that was God's will, however, the following show that is not true either.
Genesis 6:1-8; 1 Samuel 15:10, 11; Jeremiah 7:29-31

Does it make God weak and incompetent, since persons can go against the will of the omnipotent God? No.
It means simply, that God has endowed man with freewill, and allows man the freedom to exercise that will.
Why?
God made man in his image, with his attributes, and just as God is free, he wants his creation to be free. 2 Corinthians 3:17

Freedom is a beautiful gift, but just like everything else, it can be abused, as we saw, at the very beginning, when Adam and Eve abused their God given freedom of choice, and suffered the consequences.

Yes, there are consequences to abusing our gift of freedom.
For example, man can do some amazing things, but some take this freedom for granted.
Your Chances Of Dying Ranked By Sport and Activity
Yes, there are limits on our freedom. There are certain laws we cannot defy, without suffering lost.
Deuteronomy 30:19


Yes, Nebuchadnezzar learned a lesson, the hard way.
He learned that God doeth according to his will. That is, whatever God wants to do, he will do.
However, it does not say whatever man has done was what God wants him to do.
It also does not say that God does only what we see being done.
There is a stark contrast between the scripture, and those statements.


Yes, there are many scriptures in the Bible that we want to be careful to use in context.
For example, Jeremiah says that it is not in man to direct his steps, in that man was not designed to rule himself.... and this is true, as can be seen from history.
However, these scriptures are not saying that whatever a man does, this was God's will.

God allows man to carry out man's will, even though the results are not always desirable.

You giving your philosophy

 

[Clare73]

God's word says yes, he does.
Philemon 1:14
But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.
See also 1 Corinthians 9:16-18

The word in the Greek there is "voluntary."
Keeping in mind that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

Unregenerate man can make some moral choices, but he cannot make all moral choices.
He cannot choose to be sinless, he is only "free" to choose what he prefers, which preference is determined by his fallen nature.
Nor can unregenerate man choose to savingly believe. Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

So though he is a free agent, man does not have complete free will to make all moral choices; e.g., to be sinless.

 

[CoreyD]

You giving your philosophy

No. I do not "have a Bachelors of Theology from a Bible College". That's philosophy.
I use the Bible which is what all disciples of Christ do. John 7:15
The Jews therefore were marveling, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated [ - gone to school]?”

Above, you said, "during the course of studies, we went over all the books of the bible, if not critically at least summary's".
Did you go over Philemon 1:14 and 1 Corinthians 9:16-18
Did these verses seem to you to be as important as all others? What's philosophical about them?

 

[CoreyD]

The word in the Greek there is "voluntary."
Keeping in mind that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

Unregenerate man can make some moral choices, but he cannot make all moral choices.
He cannot choose to be sinless, he is only "free" to choose what he prefers, which preference is determined by his fallen nature.
Nor can unregenerate man choose to savingly believe. Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

So though he is a free agent, man does not have complete free will to make all moral choices; e.g., to be sinless.

Hi Clare.
Can you explain 'voluntary' yo me please?

Also, have you defined free will as "complete free will to make all moral choices; e.g."
I don't understand freewill to be "complete free will"?
Free will is not free will, by quantity.
Nor is it a case of free will being ultimate, or unlimited, as my post explained.

So, you don't seem to be tackling freewill. Right now, it seems you are tackling something greater than free will. Perhaps sovereignty, or absolute authority.
No. Man was not given either of these, as can be seen from the explanation in my post.
You aren't trying to adjust free will to not be free will, are you?