Does man have a freewill ?

[Brightfame52]

@bling

It is wonderful to have someone else to blame for our sins:

Even though men are slaves to sin, under its dominion they can only blame themselves for their sins they committed

 

[bling]

Man has a will, but its not free from Gods Sovereignty, since Gods will always is done by Him, that means every other will is subservient to His. Now man is a slave to his sin nature, that doesnt mean he cant make good moral choices, naturally. He can go to church, be a good father, husband, and so forth. He can be most moral and honest person can be. Don't smoke, drink or run the ladies. He can make wise and good decisions. But what he cant do and doesnt do, is good spiritually. Spiritually he is a slave to sin and doesnt do good, nothing that pleases God and would cause God to accept him in His favor.

Now here is testimony of scripture:

Ps 14:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.


Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is referring to spiritual good, none by nature does good !

Why is that ? Because by nature we are dead to God, and a slave to sin ! 2

First: Not all nonbelievers in this world are saying: “There is no God”, but there are fools saying that.

I totally agree: The nonbelieving sinner can do nothing “good”, righteous, worthy, honorable or holy, but for him to be accountable for the sins he/she does do, he has to make some free will choices, even if it is between two different sins.

We know that it is a sin to be selfish, so doing something for selfish reasons would not be pleasing to God.

I like others, came to my senses one day, seeing I was heading for a pigsty in this life (like the prodigal son). For purely selfish reasons, I wanted an undeserved livable life, so I turned to the God I was hating at the time and even though I still hated Him, I was just willing to accept undeserved help (Charity/Love/Mercy). God showered me with unbelievable wonderful gifts (again like the prodigal son).

God is totally sovereign, but He also has the power to allow us to make free will mental choices without having to change His plans or put His sovereignty in question.

 

[Clare73]

No, God got us free will. Sin would be impossible, in fact, if not for free will,

Nor according to Jesus (Jn 8:34).

Who made your rule?

 

[Clare73]

Yes. So? What is your point? I already asked you what your point was and then you didn't explain it. Please stop being so vague.
Yes. So? What does that have to do with the timing of when someone repents and believes?
They can put their faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus called unregenerate sinners to repentance (Matthew 9:13) and never said they first had to be born again before they could repent and believe in Him.

See Jn 3:3-8.

For reference, my question was this:
Do you think that God expects unregenerate man to glorify Him as God and to give thanks to Him for what He has done and that unregenerate man has no excuse for not doing so?
Scripture says that man has no excuse for not glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him, so I will assume your answer to my question is yes. So, tell me why you believe that unregenerate man is capable of glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him, but somehow is not capable of repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Christ? That makes no sense.

Your issue is with Ro 1:18-20.

That is above my pay grade.

 

[Clare73]

No, God got us free will. Sin would be impossible, in fact, if not for free will,

Can you choose to be sinless?

If not, you do not have a completely free will.

You have a limited free will, able to make some moral choices, but not all (to be sinless).

 

[expos4ever]

And even "secular" folk understand basic justice, right from wrong, which is why we're rightfully morally outraged over some grave injustice done. We know that the perpetrator had a choice, could've refrained, could've done otherwise.

While I agree that most secular people believe in free will, I suggest there is a compelling argument that the whole concept is incoherent. In short, the case could be made that all our actions are determined by chemical events in our brains which are, in turn, fully determined by laws of physics over which we have no control. On this view, free will is an illusion, albeit a powerful one.

I realize this may be a diversion from the biblically-oriented arguments I see here in this thread. It is not my intent to sidetrack this thread.

 

[fhansen]

While I agree that most secular people believe in free will, I suggest there is a compelling argument that the whole concept is incoherent. In short, the case could be made that all our actions are determined by chemical events in our brains which are, in turn, fully determined by laws of physics over which we have no control. On this view, free will is an illusion, albeit a powerful one.

I realize this may be a diversion from the biblically-oriented arguments I see here in this thread. It is not my intent to sidetrack this thread.

I think a danger there is in saying that God cannot possibly make a morally accountable, responsible being-that's too big a job for Him. And I believe it's absurd to say that humans are not so, just based on our experience here alone, let alone all of the scriptural warnings and admonishments and exhortations to make the right choices and do the right things.

 

[fhansen]

Can you choose to be sinless?

If not, you do not have a completely free will.

You have a limited free will, able to make some moral choices, but not all (to be sinless).

Humans are limited, created, finite beings. As such, they have limited and finite freedom compared to God's infinite and perfect freedom. But, being made in His image, our freedom, such as it is, however weak or strong, God gave to us and wants us to use rightly. And He's been seeking to draw and guide humanity into the right use of that freedom beginning already in Eden when we first used it wrongly. That's what the "drama" of this life is all about.

The world we find ourselves in now is a world where we're learning the foolishness and evil of that original choice. And with the help of grace, we can make the right choice, turning back to Him again. So, now connected to the Vine as we're meant to be, He does His job of making us sinless, of becoming who we were created to be, putting us on the path, the way, of true holiness. And as we grow in knowledge and conviction, our justice or righteousness grows accordingly. And our calling and election are made all the more sure.

 

[Brightfame52]

First: Not all nonbelievers in this world are saying: “There is no God”, but there are fools saying that.

I totally agree: The nonbelieving sinner can do nothing “good”, righteous, worthy, honorable or holy, but for him to be accountable for the sins he/she does do, he has to make some free will choices, even if it is between two different sins.

We know that it is a sin to be selfish, so doing something for selfish reasons would not be pleasing to God.

I like others, came to my senses one day, seeing I was heading for a pigsty in this life (like the prodigal son). For purely selfish reasons, I wanted an undeserved livable life, so I turned to the God I was hating at the time and even though I still hated Him, I was just willing to accept undeserved help (Charity/Love/Mercy). God showered me with unbelievable wonderful gifts (again like the prodigal son).

God is totally sovereign, but He also has the power to allow us to make free will mental choices without having to change His plans or put His sovereignty in question.

Man has no freewill. Man has a will but its not free, and yet its accountable.

 

[fhansen]

Nor according to Jesus (Jn 8:34).

Who made your rule?

No one has to make any rule. God either directly wills, wants, causes the rape and torture of a child whenever happens, as the author of sin, or He allows such things for a time, for a season, for His ultimately good purposes.

 

[fhansen]

False, he still did it willingly, so he is accountable

False, if he has no choice then his Creator would be accountable.

 

[fhansen]

Man has no freewill. Man has a will but its not free, and yet its accountable.

Quite the contradiction in terms there.

 

[Brightfame52]

False, if he has no choice then his Creator would be accountable.

False his Creator made him responsible.

 

[Brightfame52]

Quite the contradiction in terms there.

In your mind, but its truth

 

[Brightfame52]

No one has to make any rule. God either directly wills, wants, causes the rape and torture of a child whenever happens, as the author of sin, or He allows such things for a time, for a season, for His ultimately good purposes.

Men do all those evil wicked things, but yet God predetermined that they do them and holds them accountable. Just like with Christ, He held men accountable for their wicked hands, yet He predetermined they act that way Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

They had no choice because it was by Gods determinate counsel !

 

[fhansen]

Men do all those evil wicked things, but yet God predetermined that they do them and holds them accountable. Just like with Christ, He held men accountable for their wicked hands, yet He predetermined they act that way Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

They had no choice because it was by Gods determinate counsel !

"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone: but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed." James 1:13

One has to read the whole bible, and with understanding. God's church has understood that He foreknew that many would prefer darkness over light and determined to use their wicked choices to bring about an even greater good than the evil they desired. A God who would cause the evil itself, then blame the evil-doers for the evil they do, and then send them to eternal torment for the evil He caused them to do would be a very creepy god, indeed, much creepier than satan, in fact.

 

[fhansen]

In your mind, but its truth

In your mind it's truth.

 

[bling]

Man has no freewill. Man has a will but its not free, and yet its accountable.

"Will" = "free will", unless you have some different dictionary?

 

[fhansen]

False his Creator made him responsible.

Whatever. That's like someone training a dog to maul people, and then punishing the dog eternally for mauling people. You might be able to accept the "logic" in that but it won't-and shouldn't-fly with most.

 

[David Lamb]

"Will" = "free will", unless you have some different dictionary?

Will does not have to be free. Luther wrote a book with the title, "The Bondage of the Will," for example, written in response to works of Erasmus which championed the notion of free will.