If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Jeff Saunders]

Scripture does not teach universal salvation. Nowhere does it indicate that anyone who is unsaved and dies can still be saved some time after they die.

So you deny the fact that 3 times God says “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess “ when used in Phil 2:10-11 -Paul uses the Greek word Exomologeo which means- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations. We know from experience that most of humanity goes to the grave in a non reconciled state. But does that negate scripture? Scripture is full of the redemption of all, when reading it as stated but because of tradition, those verses are altered in explanation or ignored or words added or subtracted from the original language. 1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the Living God, who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. Do you believe what is written or do you have to ad potential savior, or all kinds of people ? Why is it so hard for people to think that God is really Love, Life , and Light and in Him is no darkness? Why would God make a creation that he has to torture most of it for all eternity? That’s crazy and if anyone has ever had an encounter with the Living God they would know , He would never do that to his beloved creation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus is the only one who spoke of hell.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go into hell (gehenna), where the fire never goes out." (Mk 9:43)

Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already. (Jn 3:18)

You either believe him, or you don't.

You need to study Gehenna. You are making it into something that the very audience would not even understand. The Jews were an Eastern Mindset, they were a honor based society, to have yourself or your family dishonored was one of the worst things that could happen. Gehenna was the place the Jews of old sacrificed their children to Baal I believe, or maybe some other gods I can’t remember for sure, it was a shameful thing and a great stain on them . Just the idea of what happened at Gehenna was shameful to them. On top of that Gehenna was the place that the Jews bodies were dumped and not given a proper burial from one of there judgments, to no have a proper burial was very shameful to them and their family. Also to be maimed was also shameful to them. So Jesus telling them it’s better to have your hand cut off than to be thrown into Gehenna, was a bid statement. It’s about shame not eternal punishment, which the OT says nothing about so it would be a foreign idea to them . Eternal hell is from the Gnostics, they believed that only a few would be in heaven, those chosen to know the secret knowledge, those God chose. All others burned forever. Funny how we in “Christianity “ have a group that teaches the same thing.

 

[Clare73]

So you deny the fact that 3 times God says “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess “

And that includes Satan. . .

when used in Phil 2:10-11 -Paul uses the Greek word Exomologeo which means- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations.

That is only one usage of the word, found, e.g., in Ro 14:11, 15:9, Lk 10:2.

It also means simply to confess or acknowledge openly, to thank (Mt 11:25, Php 2:11)

We know from experience that most of humanity goes to the grave in a non reconciled state. But does that negate scripture? Scripture is full of the redemption of all, when reading it as stated but because of tradition, those verses are altered in explanation or ignored or words added or subtracted from the original language. 1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the Living God, who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. Do you believe what is written or do you have to ad potential savior, or all kinds of people ? Why is it so hard for people to think that God is really Love, Life , and Light and in Him is no darkness? Why would God make a creation that he has to torture most of it for all eternity? That’s crazy and if anyone has ever had an encounter with the Living God they would know , He would never do that to his beloved creation.

Man's wisdom at its best. . .measuring God by man.

Go and learn what this means (Mt 9:13):

"My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9)

Jesus' words remain:

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go into hell (gehenna), where the fire never goes out." (Mk 9:43)

Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already. (Jn 3:18)

You either believe them, or you don't.

 

[Clare73]

You need to study Gehenna.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

You are making it into something that the very audience would not even understand. The Jews were an Eastern Mindset, they were a honor based society, to have yourself or your family dishonored was one of the worst things that could happen. Gehenna was the place the Jews of old sacrificed their children to Baal I believe, or maybe some other gods I can’t remember for sure, it was a shameful thing and a great stain on them .

Where does this stuff come from?

It was the garbage dump where, because of the continual adding of refuse, the fire did not go out, which was Jesus' point about hell.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you deny the fact that 3 times God says “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess “ when used in Phil 2:10-11 -Paul uses the Greek word Exomologeo which means- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations.

The word can mean to acknowledge openly and joyfully, but it does not have to mean that. It can just mean to confess or to acknowledge something, even grudgingly, or out of sorrowful admission or in such a way that you acknowledge something that is undeniable.

The word is used in verses like Matthew 3:6 and Mark 1:5 in relation to people confessing their sins, which is not something that is done joyfully and to celebrate, but rather is done out of remorse and in humility.

We know from experience that most of humanity goes to the grave in a non reconciled state. But does that negate scripture? Scripture is full of the redemption of all, when reading it as stated but because of tradition, those verses are altered in explanation or ignored or words added or subtracted from the original language.

God graciously offers salvation to all (Titus 2:11), but makes all responsible to choose whether to accept it or not by way of repentance and faith.

1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the Living God, who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. Do you believe what is written or do you have to ad potential savior, or all kinds of people ?

Don't ever ask me again if I believe what is written. I believe all that is written in scripture. But, I may not agree with you on some of the things that are written in scripture. You are not the ultimate authority on how scripture should be interpreted.

Why is it so hard for people to think that God is really Love, Life , and Light and in Him is no darkness?

When did I say otherwise? How about you talk to me instead of your strawman? I believe God graciously offers salvation to all people. If some reject it, does that take anything away from who God is? Of course not. That is their own fault, not God's.

Why would God make a creation that he has to torture most of it for all eternity?

Why wouldn't He have just made everyone perfect from the beginning and not messed around for thousands of years if everyone is going to end up being made perfect in the end? And, what are you talking about when you talk about torture? Who said anything about torture? Not me. That's not my understanding of what unbelievers will experience. They will be in torment, but I believe that will be in the sense of feeling regret and remorse over missing out on what they could have had, if only they had repented and believed when they had the chance.

That’s crazy and if anyone has ever had an encounter with the Living God they would know , He would never do that to his beloved creation.

He's not going to torture people for eternity. Where did you even get that idea from? It certainly wasn't from me.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Jesus is the only one who spoke of hell.

The above statement should cause you to sit up and take notice:
1). 66 books of Sacred text and only Jesus spoke about hell? A bit odd considering the teaching of hell is the “real“ foundation of the gospel of Orthodoxy. Right? I mean, the general consensus of Orthodoxy (maybe not yours) is if no one burns in hell the death of The Christ is meaninglessness. No?
2). Three Gospel accounts mention Gehenna but the Beloved John failed to mention Gehenna in his Gospel or any of his inspired writings, even The Revelation of Jesus The Christ! Weird.
3). The only other place Gehenna is mentioned in the entire 27 books of the NT is in the book of James, the brother of our Lord Jesus had this to say about Gehenna:

”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“
‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬ ‭NABRE‬‬

James 3:6 The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna. | New American Bible, revised edition (NABRE) | Download

The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.

bible.com

Do you not see a direct correlation between what James said about Gehenna and what Jesus stated in Mathew?

”“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NABRE‬‬

Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, | New American Bible, revised edi

“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment,

bible.com

More questions to ponder if you are willing …
1). Were the Apostles obedient to their Lord Jesus in His command to “make disciples and teach them whatsoever I have commanded you.” According to Scripture they failed miserably as none of them were obedient to teach about This most foundational truth to the world.
2). Did Paul lie when he stated the following interview the book of Acts:

”And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.“
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭25‬-‭27‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Acts 20:25-27 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I | English Standard Version Revision

And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I

bible.com

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed then with two hands to go into hell (gehenna), where the fire never goes out." (Mk 9:43)

Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already. (Jn 3:18)

You either believe him, or you don't.

I agree …

 

[Clare73]

The above statement should cause you to sit up and take notice:
1). 66 books of Sacred text and only Jesus spoke about hell? A bit odd considering the teaching of hell is the “real“ foundation of the gospel of Orthodoxy. Right? I mean, the general consensus of Orthodoxy (maybe not yours) is if no one burns in hell the death of The Christ is meaninglessness. No?

No. . .

2). Three Gospel accounts mention Gehenna but the Beloved John failed to mention Gehenna in his Gospel or any of his inspired writings, even The Revelation of Jesus The Christ! Weird.
3). The only other place Gehenna is mentioned in the entire 27 books of the NT is in the book of James, the brother of our Lord Jesus had this to say about Gehenna:
”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“
‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬ ‭NABRE‬‬

That's a figurative way of saying that the source of the tongue's evil is the devil (Jn 8:44 Mt 5:22, Lk 16:23).

Do you not see a direct correlation between what James said about Gehenna and what Jesus stated in Mathew?

”“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NABRE

James is using Gehenna as a metaphor for fire. . .he says nothing there about judgment or eternal torment, which is Jesus' use of the term.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The word can mean to acknowledge openly and joyfully, but it does not have to mean that. It can just mean to confess or to acknowledge something, even grudgingly, or out of sorrowful admission or in such a way that you acknowledge something that is undeniable.

The word is used in verses like Matthew 3:6 and Mark 1:5 in relation to people confessing their sins, which is not something that is done joyfully and to celebrate, but rather is done out of remorse and in humility.


God graciously offers salvation to all (Titus 2:11), but makes all responsible to choose whether to accept it or not by way of repentance and faith.


Don't ever ask me again if I believe what is written. I believe all that is written in scripture. But, I may not agree with you on some of the things that are written in scripture. You are not the ultimate authority on how scripture should be interpreted.


When did I say otherwise? How about you talk to me instead of your strawman? I believe God graciously offers salvation to all people. If some reject it, does that take anything away from who God is? Of course not. That is their own fault, not God's.


Why wouldn't He have just made everyone perfect from the beginning and not messed around for thousands of years if everyone is going to end up being made perfect in the end? And, what are you talking about when you talk about torture? Who said anything about torture? Not me. That's not my understanding of what unbelievers will experience. They will be in torment, but I believe that will be in the sense of feeling regret and remorse over missing out on what they could have had, if only they had repented and believed when they had the chance.


He's not going to torture people for eternity. Where did you even get that idea from? It certainly wasn't from me.

1- Exomologeo , by its definition can't be talking about a forced or grudgingly confess, that's just not the definition of the word . Even if it could be used in that way, God doesn't accept false or forced confession, that is not how God works, he conquers his enemies by loving them into becoming a friend and ally, then they are no longer an enemy.
2- Matt 3:6 and Mark 1:5 why do you think that the confessions were forced and not out of a conviction of the heart? Was not your confession one of remorse and humility when the Holy Spirit convicted your heart? If it was not with humility and conviction, I would wonder how sincere it would be.
3- You are correct that I am not the ultimate authority on how scripture should be interpreted, that is why I read and study those who wrote in the first few hundred years of when Jesus was in the earth, some even disciples of the original disciples. The interpretations that I follow are what most of the early church in the East believed, these are historical ways of reading scripture. We have a unique tool, in the internet, that lets us read the letters from the early church fathers wrote, this is a first for humanity, that is why this movement( Christian Universal Salvation) is growing , the lies of the last 1500 years are falling apart , as they should. Satan has deceived the Church long enough, God will not abandon his creation and he will bring about reconciliation for all in time at the end of the ages.
4- Not all people have the opportunity to reject God, many never hear of him at all, I have seen this first hand, I have smuggled Bibles into places that it was illegal to have a Bible and many generations lived and dies and had no idea if who God was. Many people have been hurt and traumatized by" Church People" and reject the false god that they are told about and want nothing to do with a god who would torture people for just not understanding him, they walk away never knowing the true living God. So no its not their fault.
5- God could have made everyone perfect if that is what he wanted, but his plan was so much bigger than that, God wanted a humanity that would love out of the purest form, and that is out of free will. The reason we are going on about 6000 years into this grand creation is because this is the best plan of God for all of humanity to respond to him out of free will, after all the pain, sorrow and sadness that sin has done to our world is done, none will ever want to live that way again, and then as scripture says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord" then 1Cor15:28" God will be all in all" Gods creates a New Heaven and New Earth, the old will pass away and all things will be made new. Then creation is finished.
I am glad that you do not believe that God will not torture his creation for ever, that a good place to start.

 

[Clare73]

1- Exomologeo , by its definition can't be talking about a forced or grudgingly confess, that's just not the definition of the word . Even if it could be used in that way, God doesn't accept false or forced confession, that is not how God works, he conquers his enemies by loving them into becoming a friend and ally,

And that is how he will conquer Satan in Php 2:10-11? . . .hardly.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The above statement should cause you to sit up and take notice:
1). 66 books of Sacred text and only Jesus spoke about hell? A bit odd considering the teaching of hell is the “real“ foundation of the gospel of Orthodoxy. Right? I mean, the general consensus of Orthodoxy (maybe not yours) is if no one burns in hell the death of The Christ is meaninglessness. No?

Clare73: No. . .

My reply: Ok.

2). Three Gospel accounts mention Gehenna but the Beloved John failed to mention Gehenna in his Gospel or any of his inspired writings, even The Revelation of Jesus The Christ! Weird.
3). The only other place Gehenna is mentioned in the entire 27 books of the NT is in the book of James, the brother of our Lord Jesus had this to say about Gehenna:
”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“
‭‭James‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬ ‭NABRE‬‬

Clare73: That's a figurative way of saying that the source of the tongue's evil is the devil (Jn 8:44 Mt 5:22, Lk 16:23).

My reply: I am so completely lost as to how you come up with this interpretation …

Do you not see a direct correlation between what James said about Gehenna and what Jesus stated in Mathew?

”“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NABRE

Clare73:James is using Gehenna as a metaphor for fire. . .he says nothing there about judgment or eternal torment, which is Jesus' use of the term.

My reply: So James uses Gehenna as a metaphor for the tongue (I agree) AND he uses Gehenna figuratively as the Devil’s tongue?
Got it … and those of us who affirm what the Scriptures teach concerning Universal Reconciliation are guilty of forcing, bending and taking the Scriptures out of context? Alrighty then … I gave you plenty to think about to which you chose to field no reply.

blessings

 

[Clare73]

Clare73: That's a figurative way of saying that the source of the tongue's evil is the devil (Jn 8:44 Mt 5:22, Lk 16:23).

My reply: I am so completely lost as to how you come up with this interpretation …

"The tongue is set on fire by the devil."

Is the human tongue ever actually on fire on earth? So what is he saying?

That's a figurative way of saying that the source of the tongue's evil (i.e., its fire) is the devil (Jn 8:44 Mt 5:22, Lk 16:23).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1- Exomologeo , by its definition can't be talking about a forced or grudgingly confess, that's just not the definition of the word . Even if it could be used in that way, God doesn't accept false or forced confession, that is not how God works, he conquers his enemies by loving them into becoming a friend and ally, then they are no longer an enemy.
2- Matt 3:6 and Mark 1:5 why do you think that the confessions were forced and not out of a conviction of the heart?

That's not what I said. At all. I was simply showing that the word doesn't have to be used in the sense of joy and celebration.

Was not your confession one of remorse and humility when the Holy Spirit convicted your heart?

Yes. That is my point. You acted as if the word could only be used in the sense of joy and celebration and I showed otherwise. You're reading things into what I said that aren't there.

3- You are correct that I am not the ultimate authority on how scripture should be interpreted, that is why I read and study those who wrote in the first few hundred years of when Jesus was in the earth, some even disciples of the original disciples. The interpretations that I follow are what most of the early church in the East believed, these are historical ways of reading scripture. We have a unique tool, in the internet, that lets us read the letters from the early church fathers wrote, this is a first for humanity, that is why this movement( Christian Universal Salvation) is growing , the lies of the last 1500 years are falling apart , as they should. Satan has deceived the Church long enough, God will not abandon his creation and he will bring about reconciliation for all in time at the end of the ages.

The early church did not teach universal salvation, so I don't know what you're talking about. But, they didn't all agree on everything then just as we still don't now.

4- Not all people have the opportunity to reject God, many never hear of him at all, I have seen this first hand, I have smuggled Bibles into places that it was illegal to have a Bible and many generations lived and dies and had no idea if who God was. Many people have been hurt and traumatized by" Church People" and reject the false god that they are told about and want nothing to do with a god who would torture people for just not understanding him, they walk away never knowing the true living God. So no its not their fault.

Read Romans 1:18-2:16. No one has any excuse for not glorifying and being thankful to God because He has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made. So, stop making excuses for people.

Also, the Bible doesn't teach that people would be tortured, so anyone preaching that should not be preaching.

5- God could have made everyone perfect if that is what he wanted, but his plan was so much bigger than that, God wanted a humanity that would love out of the purest form, and that is out of free will.

True free will allows for people to reject Him. Surely, He's not going to save people who reject Him. Universal salvation is not possible with free will.

The reason we are going on about 6000 years into this grand creation is because this is the best plan of God for all of humanity to respond to him out of free will, after all the pain, sorrow and sadness that sin has done to our world is done, none will ever want to live that way again, and then as scripture says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord"

They will see Him in all of His glory, so it will be undeniable that He is Lord. They will not be confessing it out of a repentant and sorrowful heart, but in the sense that it will be undeniable at that point. Nowhere does scripture teach that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire ever gets another chance to repent after that. It doesn't teach that anyone gets another chance after death. Today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2).

then 1Cor15:28" God will be all in all" Gods creates a New Heaven and New Earth, the old will pass away and all things will be made new. Then creation is finished.
I am glad that you do not believe that God will not torture his creation for ever, that a good place to start.

That isn't "a good place to start", as if I'm ever going to agree with your universal salvation doctrine. I will never believe that because it is clearly not taught in scripture.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

"The tongue is set on fire by the devil."

It says … “itself set on fire by Gehenna.“

Is the human tongue ever actually on fire on earth?

Of course not …

So what is he saying?

From where I’m standing certainly not what you are suggesting.

That's a figurative way of saying that the source of the tongue's evil (i.e., its fire) is the devil (Jn 8:44 Mt 5:22, Lk 16:23).

Thank you for trying to assist me with understanding your point of view. But I simply see no relevance/support from your given Scripture, to Gehenna being used figuratively to represent it as the source of evil of the Devils tongue. How can you support Jesus using Gehenna as a place of fiery eternal punishment, which is the “supposed” place of the Lord’s Righteousness Judgement against the wicked then turn around and attribute it to figuratively represent the fiery tongue of the Devil?

Sorry. I’m still scratching my head …

blessings

 

[Clare73]

It says … “itself set on fire by Gehenna.“

Of course not …

From where I’m standing certainly not what you are suggesting.

”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“ (Jas 3:6)

It's a matter of grammar. . .

What is the subject of the sentence. . .back to which "itself" is referring?
"Itself" refers back to the subject "tongue". . .i.e., our tongue is a fire set by Gehenna.

Falsifying grammar doth not a heresy make. . .

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That's not what I said. At all. I was simply showing that the word doesn't have to be used in the sense of joy and celebration.


Yes. That is my point. You acted as if the word could only be used in the sense of joy and celebration and I showed otherwise. You're reading things into what I said that aren't there.


The early church did not teach universal salvation, so I don't know what you're talking about. But, they didn't all agree on everything then just as we still don't now.


Read Romans 1:18-2:16. No one has any excuse for not glorifying and being thankful to God because He has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made. So, stop making excuses for people.

Also, the Bible doesn't teach that people would be tortured, so anyone preaching that should not be preaching.


True free will allows for people to reject Him. Surely, He's not going to save people who reject Him. Universal salvation is not possible with free will.


They will see Him in all of His glory, so it will be undeniable that He is Lord. They will not be confessing it out of a repentant and sorrowful heart, but in the sense that it will be undeniable at that point. Nowhere does scripture teach that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire ever gets another chance to repent after that. It doesn't teach that anyone gets another chance after death. Today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2).


That isn't "a good place to start", as if I'm ever going to agree with your universal salvation doctrine. I will never believe that because it is clearly not taught in scripture.

If you don't believe that the early church taught Universal Salvation, you have not read much of the early church fathers, not all of them but many did. Even Augustine who was apposed to universal salvation said they were many in his day that taught it without denying the scripture. In some placed it was actually the dominant view but not in all. There are some really good books that have documented this.
Universal Salvation is only possible because of free will, Jesus said I lay my life down freely no man takes it from me, Jesus is our model the one true human who we are to be like, Man is not truly 100% human until he is in right relationship with God, with out free will we could not choose to have a pure love for God and align ourselves with him.
As for no chance of repentance after our mortal body is dead, no scripture says that, but the example is given in scripture. Jesus went to the grave and preached to the captives, if they could not repent why did he do that, it says he lead the captives free.
Also Jesus said " no man comes to the Father but through me" so that shows that all that go to the Father have to accept him and alot of people were dead before Jesus was crucified, unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father and Jesus was mistaken, many people have accepted him after their mortal body had died.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“ (Jas 3:6)

It's a matter of grammar. . .

What is the subject of the sentence. . .back to which "itself" is referring?
"Itself" refers back to the subject "tongue". . .i.e., our tongue is a fire set by Gehenna.

I understand the grammar …

Falsifying grammar doth not a heresy make. . .

*I would appreciate it if you would please explain what the above statement means or to what you are referring …

Thank you for trying to help me gain insight in to your thought process. Here is what I’m trying to point out. Basically, according to you and those who hold to ECT, the fires of Gehenna, so to speak, receives its fuel from the unbelief of men and all sorts of their wickedness; including that which comes forth from the tongue. Sin!

So how can the fires of hell be used figuratively to fuel the evils of the tongue, when in actuality, Gehenna is at least partially fueled from the evils that comes forth from the tongue? Not the other way around …

blessings

 

[Sabertooth]

These ridiculous questions demonstrate the illogical doctrine of forever punishment. Right?

No. They demonstrate our limited comprehension of God's Judgment. Jesus promised to remedy that in John 14:26.

Until He told us otherwise, would any of us have understood that Someone could die in our stead...?

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”
Isaiah 55:8-9
Awesome God, Rich Mullins (1988)

 

[Clare73]

I understand the grammar …

*I would appreciate it if you would please explain what the above statement means or to what you are referring …

Thank you for trying to help me gain insight in to your thought process. Here is what I’m trying to point out. Basically, according to you

Are you sure about that?

and those who hold to ECT, the fires of Gehenna, so to speak, receives its fuel from the unbelief of men and all sorts of their wickedness; including that which comes forth from the tongue. Sin!

The fire is the wrath of God on sin, not a construct of man.

So how can the fires of hell be used figuratively to fuel the evils of the tongue, when in actuality, Gehenna is at least partially fueled from the evils that comes forth from the tongue? Not the other way around …

blessings

You have your own answer.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Are you sure about that?

The fire is the wrath of God on sin, not a construct of man.

You have your own answer.

I suppose there is no need for us to move forward in “this particular discussion.“ I try to explain my view with my thought process. You answer with nothing but statements you deem to be factual and add Scripture but offer nothing about how they are relevant.
Thank you for your time.

blessings

You made this passing comment to me: “Falsifying grammar doth not a heresy make. . .”

I asked: *I would appreciate it if you would please explain what the above statement means or to what you are referring …

Personally, I‘m fairly certain what you meant but wanted to give you the opportunity to own it. You did not.

 

[Clare73]

I suppose there is no need for us to move forward in “this particular discussion.“ I try to explain my view with my thought process. You answer with nothing but statements you deem to be factual

Scripture is factual. . .'nuff said.