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I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Again, he is promoting others works and I refer back to the word of God. I have asked questions from the Word of God that both Beth and Jeff have ignored- why is that?
Ask them?
Do I claim to have all the answers no, but it has to make sense, God is not the author of confusion.
No He is not … that honor belongs to mankind of which we are a part.
I'll ask you some of the same questions.

Why is there a book of life if everyone ultimately has life?

Why does Christ state that someone can be blotted out if it's not true?
Although I think of these questions often enough I am not troubled by them because I am really not sure. Like you previously stated, I don’t have all the answers. You see, I don’t have to know and understand everything. This doesn’t mean Universal Reconciliation is false doctrine.

I don’t have to “qualify what the Scriptures really mean” when they plainly state that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind. Paul dedicated two full chapters, 1st Corinthians 15 and Romans chapter 5, to proclaim this most marvelous and glorious truth! You see, the total and complete restoration of all things encompasses the sum total of all Scripture. Everything from “depart from me I never knew you” to “those whose names were not found written …” and others will all find their fulfillment in the eventual restoration of all things.

On the other hand, those who reject this most profound proclamation declared in Scripture are compelled by their theological paradigm, which has them handcuffed and boxed in, to perform all kinds of interpretive gymnastics to ensure their theological house of cards does not crumble.
What power does the Second Death have over anyone if no one dies? Christ states it has power.
Well, the first death had its butt handed to it by the resurrection. Why do you think the second death has more power than the ONE who conquered the first death? The first death is the right of passage all men in Adam must pass through. The second death appears to be reserved for others. For example:

”“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty ( but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This passage, in my view, was written to the believers at Smyrna. He warns them of the cost for following Him but encourages them to be faithful unto death. Note: The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’“ It appears to me the second death is also for believers. Also, I find it interesting the Spirit chose the word “hurt” by the Second Death rather than “killed!”

Why do you state that Christ ultimately saves everyone but it's obvious you don't believe that because if he can't get it done the LOF will do the job.
Please abstain from telling me what I do or do not believe. Jesus got it done … Is actively getting it done … and when everything is accomplished according to the Father’s will, He will had over all authority back to the Father who will be ALL IN ALL.
If the LOF can save why did Christ pay the ultimate sacrifice?
Never said the LOF can save anyone.
Again, this all has to make sense or what are we doing. We should be able with the right tools to study for ourselves.
So it’s ok for you to use study tools, which when it comes down to it, are composed/compiled by men, but Jeff is in error because he reads and learns what the church fathers taught and believed? Reading the church fathers is, in my opinion, no different than having a discussion with one who is alive. They are stating their beliefs based on their interpretation of Scripture and there was no lack of disagreement among them. Same then as it is today …
When we take the bible as a whole it's always been life or death but you and others are stating we can throw all of that out and it's not true. And to read man's word over God's so we can have a better understanding? I'm not trying to be arrogant but yes, that scriptures rings very true to me when it comes down to something that Christ makes so simple on this issue. He states fear not the one that can kill the body but fear the one that can kill both body and soul. And he seconds that in Revelation calling it the Second Death. We have the Malachi verses that state the wicked will be turned to ashes, rubble, etc. That's what fire does and that's what Christ has told us -body and soul. Second Death.


Itchy ears goes in line with someone's own desires. Do I want to see people die? No, of course not. Do I want to suffer tribulation? No but if that's expected of me I will suffer and as Paul states to accept the love of the truth. That's what I knew and realized after having been taught a pretrib rapture all my life and dropped it after seeing it wasn't biblical. Of course that's another topic altogether...

But this false doctrine - one has to pick out verses instead of taking the Bible as a whole to believe it. One has to leave out so much of the Word. That's why I have questions on why would someone seek man's word over God's? And in doing so those verses certainly come to mind.
I will refrain from replying to the remaining unsupported accusations you have made against Jeff, me and others of like mind, as it would do nothing to add to continuing a fruitful conversation …

blessings,
 
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Hoping2

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I see you do not understand the ages of God, this age we live in is just one age,
I understand that.
most will not see God for who he is in this age ,
99.9% of folks will not see Him for who He is, while they still live.
most need to have the world striped from them before they see. Once the dross is removed they will see
It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)
If the dross isn't removed here, during one's life, it will be too late later on.
and scripture tells us " every knee will bow and every tongue will confess " and the Greek word confess is what all believers have or will do.
It is written..."...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:10-12)
Your cited bowing and confessing, will be done under the realization that nothing will be hidden from Him who judges rightly.
And that judgement is final, and eternal.
 
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JulieB67

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often enough I am not troubled by them because I am really not sure.
Exactly because you don't have an answer and yet we are the ones that are performing interpretive gymnastics? These are the type of verses you have to push aside because they cause your doctrine to fall apart.

This doesn’t mean Universal Reconciliation is false doctrine.
Taking the Bible as a whole proves UR to be a false doctrine. You've already stated you don't have the answers to why there is a book of life if everyone is ultimately saved. And why Christ states someone can be blotted out if it was not true. And there are many many more verses found through out the Bible that prove UR is a false doctrine.

It appears to me the second death is also for believers.

We both know only those not found written in the book of "life" were thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Christ's words, not mine.

when they plainly state that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind.
Of course he's the Savior. He's it. There is no other means one can find salvation and that includes the Lake of Fire.

Never said the LOF can save anyone.
Ok. Sorry. I assumed you thought the LOF was a refinery as well.


Paul dedicated
Paul never taught UR.

II Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"


and Romans chapter 5,
Even in the very first verse we see this applies to only those justified by "faith". In the end the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with faith.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made rightous."



Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Again, the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with that.

How about chapter 6-

Romans 6:20 "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness."

Romans 6:21 "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."



I Corinthians 15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"

I Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."


There's a condition there by we which are saved. It doesn't state all are saved.

Christ made the sacrifice, and the disciples and apostles worked so hard to spread the gospel. For what purpose if all are saved regardless at the Second Death?


I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Alive doesn't mean eternal life. It just means quickened in the Spirit, revitalize. The Greek word is zoopoieo. The Second Death is still at Judgment Day.

II Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."



, but Jeff is in error because he reads and learns what the church fathers taught and believed? Reading the church fathers is, in my opinion, no different than having a discussion with one who is alive.
Ok, but I assumed this was an honest discussion with scriptures coming from God's Word, not man's -past or present. Anyone can have a conversation about anything. But when scripture is involved, that's ultimately what matters. If someone is promoting their beliefs come from the Word of God but then backs off when other scriptures are presented refuting it - it tells me that they don't have the answers but is still ok with pushing man's word for us to read instead of us finding the truth in God's Word. To what cause? We have the Bible in front of us. We have the scriptures telling us what the Second Death is. We have Christ stating anyone not found in the book of life is thrown into the LOF. We have Christ stating fear God who can kill both body and soul in hell. We have Christ stating that someone can be blotted out of the book of life. But we are to do as you and not let these biblical truths trouble us?

Sorry I will stick to Christ's teachings, his Revelations, etc.


Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

There's a condition there and that has to do with us, not him. Christ did his part.

I will refrain from replying to the remaining unsupported accusations you have made against Jeff, me and others of like mind, as it would do nothing to add to continuing a fruitful conversation …
Hey, I'm a scripture person first and foremost only seeking the truth from scripture. I've been fed enough false doctrine in my lifetime and am not looking to add more. Threads like these always come around and honest questions like mine always go unanswered. And when someone ignores questions about Christ's teachings/Revelations and pushes man's word over God's word instead it should make anyone sit up and take notice.
 
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Hoping2

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But this false doctrine - one has to pick out verses instead of taking the Bible as a whole to believe it. One has to leave out so much of the Word. That's why I have questions on why would someone seek man's word over God's? And in doing so those verses certainly come to mind.
The unregenerated men always seek a way to keep committing sin.
This doctrine says, in effect, that you can do whatever you want here, and it won't matter at the throne of God's judgement.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Exactly because you don't have an answer and yet we are the ones that are performing interpretive gymnastics? These are the type of verses you have to push aside because they cause your doctrine to fall apart.
So because I tell you “I don’t know“ the answer to something, you interpret that as performing interpretive gymnastics? Huh? I pushed aside nothing, I merely stated I don’t know. It’s because I’m a thinker and a slow one at that. I take my time, reflect, pray and move forward with what I know God has revealed to me. I have many questions before the Lord concerning those texts but none of them would I consider sharing with you as I don’t need you to tell me what I know/believe. I will wait on Him to reveal to me what I do not know and praise Him for what He has shown me.

My perception of your reply tells me you are troubled in your spirit. Angry. Apparently the “performing interpretive gymnastics“ comment struck too close to home because your reply concerning me performing interpretive gymnastics is nonsensical since all I said was “I don’t know.”
Taking the Bible as a whole proves UR to be a false doctrine. You've already stated you don't have the answers to why there is a book of life if everyone is ultimately saved. And why Christ states someone can be blotted out if it was not true. And there are many many more verses found through out the Bible that prove UR is a false doctrine.



We both know only those not found written in the book of "life" were thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Christ's words, not mine.
There you go again informing me of what I know/believe. Now, talk about skirting around the issue. Instead of dealing with the text in Revelation 2 you merely blow it off and tell me what I know. How about a bit of honesty on your part and say “you don’t know”, or ”I haven’t considered that” instead of projecting your need of affirmation on me AND try to include me in on it?
Of course he's the Savior. He's it. There is no other means one can find salvation and that includes the Lake of Fire.


Ok. Sorry. I assumed you thought the LOF was a refinery as well.



Paul never taught UR.

II Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"



Even in the very first verse we see this applies to only those justified by "faith". In the end the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with faith.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made rightous."



Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Again, the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with that.
Again … never said it did.
How about chapter 6-

Romans 6:20 "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness."

Romans 6:21 "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."



I Corinthians 15:1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"

I Corinthians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."


There's a condition there by we which are saved. It doesn't state all are saved.

Christ made the sacrifice, and the disciples and apostles worked so hard to spread the gospel. For what purpose if all are saved regardless at the Second Death?
Once again … never said It did.
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Alive doesn't mean eternal life. It just means quickened in the Spirit, revitalize. The Greek word is zoopoieo. The Second Death is still at Judgment Day.
You really should take the time to look up those 11 verses of Scripture pertaining to “made alive” and allow them to sink in to your heart. God the Father … God the Son … God the Spirit are supplying an awful lot of Non eternal life.
II Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."




Ok, but I assumed this was an honest discussion
Pretty sure I have been honest with you. No?
with scriptures coming from God's Word, not man's -past or present. Anyone can have a conversation about anything. But when scripture is involved, that's ultimately what matters. If someone is promoting their beliefs come from the Word of God but then backs off
I have back off of nothing …
when other scriptures are presented refuting it
You have refuted nothing …
- it tells me that they don't have the answers but is still ok with pushing man's word for us to read instead of us finding the truth in God's Word. To what cause? We have the Bible in front of us. We have the scriptures telling us what the Second Death is. We have Christ stating anyone not found in the book of life is thrown into the LOF. We have Christ stating fear God who can kill both body and soul in hell. We have Christ stating that someone can be blotted out of the book of life. But we are to do as you and not let these biblical truths trouble us?
I have not instructed you to do anything of the sort. I am not troubled when my Father chooses to withhold understanding from me of certain texts or passages of Scripture. Why should I? He gives to me what I need to know and gives me the peace of mind to share what He has given me is His truth.
Sorry I will stick to Christ's teachings, his Revelations, etc.
Me as well …
Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

There's a condition there and that has to do with us, not him. Christ did his part.


Hey, I'm a scripture person first and foremost only seeking the truth from scripture. I've been fed enough false doctrine in my lifetime and am not looking to add more. Threads like these always come around and honest questions like mine always go unanswered. And when someone ignores questions about Christ's teachings/Revelations and pushes man's word over God's word instead it should make anyone sit up and take notice.
Time to look in the mirror my dear sister in Christ … your heart is troubled indeed. You project your beliefs on to me/others to provide yourself affirmation. You have done his several times in our brief exchange. Most of your position/belief hinges on the LOF, yet when I present you with something to consider concerning the LOF you blow past it and AGAIN tell me what I know/believe. Yet you accuse me of the very thing you yourself have done. The only difference being I am honest enough to say I don’t know and comfortable enough with my position to not try and project it upon others. I say this in love my sister in Christ. I think that beam sticking out of your eye is hindering you from seeing clearly what is the will of our Heavenly Father.

Food for thought …

”And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭ESV‬‬

If man is appointed to die once how can there be a Second Death? Are the Scriptures in error when it says man is appointed to die ONCE? I say no … perhaps it is our understanding of the “Second Death” that needs to be evaluated? If man is appointed to die ONCE, that doesn’t seem to leave much room for death to be operative in the judgement. If man is appointed to die ONCE then the resurrection of the “body only“ sets the stage for the Scriptures to contradict itself. Impossible! It is our understanding of death that needs adjustment.

This is why I take my time to think, reflect and pray. I trust my Father to give me wisdom and understanding as He deems appropriate. So I share what I know. I’m honest about what I don’t know and I keep seeking His understanding and wisdom.
It’s a great place to be …

PS I think it is best to bring our discussion concerning this matter to an end. You are coming across rather hostile at times and I grow weary of you informing me of what I know/believe. I promise I will read your reply to my post and take it to heart. Should the Lord speak to my heart about the veracity of what ”you” know/believe I will praise Him for speaking to me through you and rejoice with you in the truth we share from Him.

blessings,
 
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JulieB67

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It’s because I’m a thinker and a slow one at that. I take my time, reflect, pray and move forward with what I know God has revealed to me. I have many questions before the Lord concerning those texts but none of them would I consider sharing with you as I don’t need you to tell me what I know/believe. I will wait on Him to reveal to me what I do not know and praise Him for what He has shown me.
I have been this way over the years as well over certain texts at times. So I'm sorry for letting my passion overflow. It's not anger.

My perception of your reply tells me you are troubled in your spirit. Angry.
Sorry, if I'm coming off that way. I'd admit my passion for these types of subjects does take over at times. And that does not translate well at times online. I'm not angry and definitely not troubled in spirit. I'm actually closer in my walk than I've ever been with our Father. But it's my view that doctrines like this can be dangerous. That's why my passion in discussion runs over. You don't believe it's dangerous and have no problem promoting it. And I try and refute it -with scripture. That's all. You don't believe I have refuted anything so I will back off for sure.

Someone on a message board planted seeds for me about certain doctrines I believed in most of my life. And I took what they said and went into the Bible and saw that what they were telling me was the truth. I was certainly troubled in spirit at that time. I had to do a lot of soul searching. Because it's a lot harder to unlearn certain things than to learn them. That's how what indoctrinated I was with certain beliefs. But I saw the truth they had planted for me. That's what first got me to read the Bible in it's entirety for the first time. I was seeking truth and dropping any false doctrines along the way. So that's usually what I do these days over certain doctrines that I believe to be false and dangerous. I'm not trying to come off has high and mighty and arrogant, honestly. I do not know all there is to know. I grew up on a church pew and yet it was only 25 years ago that I first read the bible in it's entirety. I had been fed milk all my life and as the Bible teaches we have to move past the foundation and into the meat. Sorry to go on about these things but wanted to tell you where I am coming from. Because I am not troubled in spirit. I am just overly passionate. And if it comes off as angry, again, I'm sorry. I need to just post my scriptures for the most part and move on.
Time to look in the mirror my dear sister in Christ … your heart is troubled indeed.
Why? Because I want to discuss God's word, not man's? Again, my heart is not troubled. But I will back down because I'm offending you. And that wasn't my intention. I didn't seek you out originally, you brought me in over a post that I actually still believe in. You naturally see if differently because you believe differently and was offended by it.
ou project your beliefs on to me/others to provide yourself affirmation.
No, just trying to post scripture that refutes your beliefs. We are to use scripture that way.

You really should take the time to look up those 11 verses of Scripture pertaining to “made alive
I have and it's the same Greek word that's in this verse translated as quickened.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

It doesn't mean eternal life at that point. There's a difference. A man dies and then he is quickened (made alive) in the spirit and then he will be judged -good or bad.

Pretty sure I have been honest with you. No?
I was talking about this thread in general. More than once Jeff posted scriptures and omitted and added to certain verses. That's very deceptive and not honest at all. And accused another of doing the very same thing. And then later promoted the reading of man's word to get a better understanding of their view.


Instead of dealing with the text in Revelation 2
I don't have a problem with Revelation 2. That's actually one of the churches Christ doesn't find fault with. They line up in particular to Revelation 12 with both defeating Satan/the devil by their testimony and are faithful to the death -physical. And of course at that point as Christ states later, the Second Death has no power over them. So it naturally can't hurt them.
If man is appointed to die once how can there be a Second Death?
Because that's what Christ tells me. And it aligns with his teaching. A man dies and then comes judgement. He dies once and then goes before Judgement where the Second Death would take place if that were to be the case. Not everyone will die the Second Death of course. So they then would be only dying once.

Most of your position/belief hinges on the LOF,
No, they don't. When we take the bible as a whole, it's always been life or death. Those who have everlasting life and those who perish. I believe that and don't try to find any wiggle room.

Even one of the most famous verses tells us that simple truth.


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I believe it would be worded very differently if what you believe is true.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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The devil isn't worth mentioning.

Then Jesus should have kept his mouth shut on the matters.
I guess I should have said..."Some things from the OT no longer apply..."
Are you still advocating circumcision ?
Man shall live by every Word of God. Not just the words we happen to like and discount the words we don't like.
Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Paul did provide us ample opportunity to view O.T. texts including the law and the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael as allegory. Gal. 4:21-24. 1 Cor. 9:9-10

And if that much is allegory, it's all allegory and directly applicable as such to everyone

I do understand that, and I agree that God does not change.
However, the covenant/testimony HAS changed.

The law remains firmly fixed against the lawlessness within all of us. There is no legitimately getting around this fact.

I am perfectly fine with the law being against the evil present within me. I'd suggest that's a proper way to view the laws in some respects.

I'm also totally OK with Paul's view of the laws, whereby every command should be viewed as "love your neighbors." Romans 13:8-10, understanding that the evil present within NO ONE can actually comply on any command.
The inability to walk in the Spirit all the time has changed too.
What OT men were not enabled to do, NT men have been enabled and equipt to do.

The notions that God made anyone but Himself in the flesh sinless is a common delusion among too many.

Walking in the Spirit also means being truthful to His Words

IF Jesus for example says evil comes from within via evil lawless thoughts and defiles us, then it does. And our own mind should easily testify to that TRUTH. Otherwise we are merely proven liars to HIS FACTS and are in direct contradictions to HIS DISCLOSURES. Not to mention searing our own minds with perpetual lies that are against what GOD SAYS about the matters.
I can't agree, as those reborn of God have no evil at all in them.

You can certainly take a stance that is opposing to Jesus and the Apostles. Not my problem. It just puts a missing mark on the holders of such contrary to God disclosures
To say they do, infers that God has evil in Him.
It infers nothing of the sorts.

God can make and use anything because He is Great Enough to do so. No created thing or the sum of all created things can never equal The Creator in any case.
Those in Christ, have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
That matter is one of division from our adversary. Not as a matter of self delusion.

Paul openly testified that he had evil present within himself in the forms of lawless thoughts, Romans 7, that he has temptation in his flesh, Gal. 4:14, that he even had a devil in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7 and in the light of these truthful disclosures that did make Paul and THE ADVERSARY present with him the "chief of sinners" after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:5

This fact, Mark 4:15 is a fact for Paul and a fact for all of us. It's the fulcrum of Jesus' disclosures and taught extensively by the Apostles.

No one should be viewed as a sole individual. This is an aspect that is totally unique to scripture.

But to "see it" a person has to be "truthful" about it. Otherwise it can be in plain sight and no liar or opposer will be able to see it, because they can not. Another unique thing about scripture.

There is also the matters of taking it up, which does tend to rile the adversary. That that is also part of God's Own Plans. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Psalm 104:24-26, Rev. 13:1 and many many others
Most of Rom 7 is a narrative of Paul's past, trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law.

Except for the fact that in the entirety of it Paul uses the present tense, not past tense.

Those who claim past tense have had it changed to things it does not say to justify their delusions. And really that's what the adversary does to people. It falsely justifies them in order to hide himself.
He reiterates that fact in the very last verse, where he says he is now serving the law of God, with his mind.
He made it clear in verse 5, that he was no longer in the "flesh".

In case you miss the obvious he clearly says his flesh still serves the law of sin, Romans 7:25 The reasons for which is obvious. Romans 11:32.
God is the God of the living: so all those who died while dead in trespasses and sin will have to wait until the day of judgement for their final destination.
Every person who has ever lived has died "in sin" other than Jesus.
To conclude that there are devils in those sanctified by the blood of Christ, does Jesus a major injustice.
Anyone who is honest about internal temptations in our own minds via the tempter should simply be honest about the facts of it. Not dishonest. Why would anyone want to be dishonest and engaged in coverups and excuses?

Paul said we are no better. Romans 3:9
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
That "fleeing" comes from honesty, when we are shown the difference between ourselves and WHO we are engaged in struggling with.

There is no victory in dishonesty, hypocrisy and lies.
 
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Benaiah468

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The best news ever: G-d gets along with all people.

There can be no greater G-d than One who achieves His goal. That is the very essence of G-d. He is the One who assigns everything its place, who not only created everything, but also sustains it and will one day bring it to its destination. It is astonishing that many people still vehemently reject this, even though the biblical references to it are unmistakable.

The Bible speaks of G-d reaching His goal with all people, and that changes everything. It changes the outlook of faith and confidence in this world. It makes a difference whether I consider my child, my neighbor, my spouse to be “lost” or someone whom G-d will one day set right, just as He will me. I have hope, even expectation, for this world. This expectation is based on the Bible. More on that in a moment. A G-d who brings back everything, finds everything that was lost, makes everything that died come alive, straightens everything that was crooked, such a G-d is Great and Almighty.

It is therefore astonishing that many Christians are often unaware of the Bible's statements about the salvation of all people and the reconciliation of all things. Many even feel compelled to agree with the doctrine of damnation in hell. That is truly strange.

Quite a few people conclude that universal reconciliation is wishful thinking. They base this conclusion on the following assumptions: Hell is unpleasant, but it is biblical truth, and universal reconciliation is a heresy whose proponents are well-meaning but misguided people. These universal reconciliation supporters may have good intentions, but they do not know the vengeful G-d who demands justice from everyone, according to the internalized doctrine of hell. Furthermore, grace is a concept that was developed only for believers. All others will eventually fall into disgrace.

Then there are people who hover “between the fronts.” They are not sure and are convinced that the Bible does not offer a definitive answer either. Of course, one does not want to completely dismiss the hope for a happy ending to the story, because hell is a terrifying image that one does not wish for oneself, one's children, one's family, or the many “unbelievers.” One realizes that talk of G-d's love is at odds with the idea of hell. Perhaps one also realizes that in the doctrine of hell, G-d's justice is played off against G-d's love in such a way that G-d's love has an expiration date, but justice demands eternal consequences.

In this group, one hears statements such as

“Those who doesn't believe in the restoration (of all things) are oxen; those who teach it are donkeys”
(presumably Christian G-ttlob Barth, 1799-1862).

This reflects not only ambivalence, but also a fear of openly and freely standing up for what one believes. It should also be borne in mind that quite a few people do not want to commit themselves to any particular direction because they are particularly good at adapting to different points of view and do not want to be involved in theological trench warfare.

It is wise not to get involved in trench warfare. I can understand that very well. Some people, by temperament, cannot make up their minds or do not want to take a stand. We should accept that, because we are all different people. Faith and trust in G-d do not arise from doctrinal disputes.

However, if you have burning personal questions or are responsible for others, then clarification is needed. There is no clarification without examination, and there is no liberation without decision. The process of clarification requires taking a stand.

After all, there are many people who, like myself, have come to the conclusion after thorough examination that the doctrine of hell is actually heresy, while the much-maligned doctrine of universal reconciliation is in fact taught in the Bible. This is a true paradigm shift. Incidentally, this is not a frivolous statement, but came after careful consideration and examination of all relevant Bible passages, including the corresponding interpretations of various points of view.

In my understanding, an examination is not completed by reading a study that confirms one's own thoughts. That would be wishful thinking, seeking only self-affirmation. For example, one responds with a quote from a book “that one likes,” but does not endeavor to examine the relevant Bible passages in a more neutral way.

Admittedly, it is a real challenge to question internalized thoughts. The doctrine of hell is an ideology. It prevents quite a few people from accepting G-d's grace for themselves and not excluding it for others. What would be your motivation to explore these questions in depth so that you can come up with your own answers?

One cannot have a greater G-d than One who achieves His goal, as I wrote at the beginning. Such a perspective arises when the clouds disperse and the sun breaks through, when questions are clarified and answers are found. Perspective arises through faith. Faith in the passages of the Bible that speak of the justification of all people.

These include:

• Romans 5:18 (all justified)
• Romans 11:32 (G-d has mercy on all)
• Romans 11:36 (all things are from Him, through Him, and to Him)
• 1 Corinthians 15:22 (all who descend from Adam are made alive in Christ)
• 1 Corinthians 15:28 (G-d will be all in all)
• 1 Timothy 4:9-11 (G-d is the Savior of all people, specially believers)
• Philippians 2:9-11 (All will confess Jesus as Lord with all their hearts)
• Colossians 1:20 (G-d reconciles all things, making peace through the blood of the cross)

Each statement in this list can be well justified from its respective context. It is striking that all of these passages come from Paul's letters. Although there are similar statements elsewhere in Scripture, Paul describes it most clearly. He has the broadest vision and speaks deliberately about final things, while other writers look less far ahead and report on intermediate goals.

Grace is amazing. Paul experienced this firsthand on his way to Damascus. He understood and proclaimed that grace cannot be earned. G-d's grace is a gift. It cannot be earned (Eph 2:8). This is no different for me than for anyone else in this world. No one is righteous (Rom 3:10), but all are justified (Rom 5:18). This is the foundation of salvation. It rests in the work of G-d in Christ and does not impose any further conditions, for that would diminish the essence of His righteousness.

Not only is universal reconciliation mentioned directly in Scripture, but there is only One who can actually reconcile all things, G-d Himself. This is what Paul writes in Colossians 1:20. If there is salvation, no human being can achieve it. But what is impossible for humans is possible for G-d (Mark 10:27). Those who trust that G-d can get along with all people are firmly anchored in reality. People cannot bring this about, but He can.

When Paul writes that G-d is the Savior of all people, he adds “specially of those who believe” (1 Tim 4:9-11). This is to make it clear that there are indeed differences. Not that today's faith or unbelief impairs G-d's work, but that we who believe already have a glimpse of what is to come. We are privileged to be able to unwrap the gift today.

A theology of the cross must end up with universal reconciliation because, as Paul mentions in Colossians 1:20, G-d reconciles the universe to Himself by making peace through the blood of the cross. Universal reconciliation is much more Christocentric than the doctrine of hell, which does not credit G-d with anything.

Lovers of hell usually refer to the Gospels, because there was no hell before the Gospels and the apostles do not write about it afterwards (with the exception of the imagery of Gehenna in the Epistle of James). Paul, who is considered the most important theologian of the first century, does not mention the supposed hell with a single word. Even in the Gospels, there is no mention of hell, but rather a reference to Gehenna, which is something completely different. Jesus did not speak of hell.

Once freed from theological baggage, one can then breathe a sigh of relief in amazement. G-d's nature is love, and it will pour out into every human being. His goal is not to become something in only a few people, but to be everything in everyone. This is not G-d's wishful thinking, but His declared goal. How does He achieve this?

By making peace through the blood of the cross, G-d will reconcile everything to Himself (Col 1:20).

What kind of G-d do you have, do I have?

What does that mean for our lives and the people we love?

And what does that mean for the course of this world, for all the people who have never experienced peace, never known justice, or who had to leave this life far too early?

What about the unborn, the sick, the people who have never heard of Jesus and the gospel of grace?

What about the followers of a hell who do not trust G-d but consider human achievement to be decisive?

I have faith that G-d will do what is right with you, with me, and with everyone in this world. I base this faith on the statements of the Bible. It has opened my heart, inspired my confidence, and broadened my understanding. Everything is from Him, through Him, and to Him. It's the best news of all time. Therefore, Glory be to Him for ever and ever (Romans 11:36).
 
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Again, he is promoting others works and I refer back to the word of God. I have asked questions from the Word of God that both Beth and Jeff have ignored- why is that? Do I claim to have all the answers no, but it has to make sense, God is not the author of confusion.

I'll ask you some of the same questions.

Why is there a book of life if everyone ultimately has life?

Why does Christ state that someone can be blotted out if it's not true?

What power does the Second Death have over anyone if no one dies? Christ states it has power.

Why do you state that Christ ultimately saves everyone but it's obvious you don't believe that because if he can't get it done the LOF will do the job.

If the LOF can save why did Christ pay the ultimate sacrifice?

Again, this all has to make sense or what are we doing. We should be able with the right tools to study for ourselves.

When we take the bible as a whole it's always been life or death but you and others are stating we can throw all of that out and it's not true. And to read man's word over God's so we can have a better understanding? I'm not trying to be arrogant but yes, those scriptures ring very true to me when it comes down to something that Christ makes so simple on this issue. He states fear not the one that can kill the body but fear the one that can kill both body and soul. And he seconds that in Revelation calling it the Second Death. We have the Malachi verses that state the wicked will be turned to ashes, rubble, etc. That's what fire does and that's what Christ has told us -body and soul. Second Death.


Itchy ears goes in line with someone's own desires. Do I want to see people die? No, of course not. Do I want to suffer tribulation? No but if that's expected of me I will suffer and as Paul states to accept the love of the truth. That's what I knew and realized after having been taught a pretrib rapture all my life and dropped it after seeing it wasn't biblical. Of course that's another topic altogether...

But this false doctrine - one has to pick out verses instead of taking the Bible as a whole to believe it. One has to leave out so much of the Word. That's why I have questions on why would someone seek man's word over God's? And in doing so those verses certainly come to mind.
I will give you my opinion.
The book of life, first off we do not even know if its a literal book or a metaphor , much of scripture is metaphor, does God have a right hand? Does Jesus have a sword coming out of his mouth? Look at the 10 virgins in Math 5 do you think that there were 10 actual virgins and 5 forgot oil and got left out of the wedding? I believe these are metaphor or allegory of the truths that God wants us to know.
We must remember that scripture was written by and written to people of Eastern mindset and we as Westerners , who don't understand Eastern mindset often misunderstand what they would think is just common sense. I have spent some time in the east and as a westerner a lot did not make sense to me. I see the book of life as not a literal book but more of God is the giver and sustainer of life and without him you are nothing, and in a shame based society to have your name blotted out of the book of life, not only brings shame on you but your whole extended family as well. So I don't see it as a real book.
The LOF , the second death, I can see you did not understand about it. No the LOF can't save anyone, only Jesus can save, but what it can do is what we are shown over many times in scripture, it is a place of refinement. Think of it in this word picture , when gold is purified it is heated till its molten, then all the dross(impurity) rises up to the top and the smith can skim off the dross, all that is polluting the gold. The LOF is Gods refinery his love is the heat, and when exposed to the heat all our dross comes floating up and is visible, we can see it, all the junk that this fallen world has rubbed off on us, anything that keeps us from seeing God for who he is, our loving Father who created us in love to have and be in a perfect love relationship with the Trinity, this is why God created us, to be in community with him and all his creation, not to burn forever all those who didn't understand or got things wrong while in a fallen mortal body in a fallen world looking at God as through a darkened glass if they see him at all. Most people live for self and build a empire for themselves and never follow Gods plan, and that all dies, all the dross is skimmed off by Jesus, and the pure gold that is left is who they are, when that process is done( only God knows how it will happen) then each person will see Jesus as he is and scripture says tree times, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, all they have built will be burned away , that is what dies , and they start new , forfeiting their inheritance in the kingdom and now they become a subject of the kingdom.
If the LOF was a eternal place or a place of annihilation, then many scripture verses would just plain not be true. For example 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them" , if one person is not reconciled God failed and so did Jesus, reconciliation only takes place when both parties are reconciled , if one is annihilated or burned forever in sin that never dies then reconciliation had not taken place and God/ Jesus failed, and that is just not possible.
Gods discipline and punishment are always unto redemption, that's God nature.
This is the mystery of the Gospel, John 4:42" Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world", its only the pagans that believe in a eternal place of torment.
That is not tickling the ears, that's God and who he is, God loves the cosmos and all he has created, he makes no mistakes.
Ask yourself why would a God who is all powerful and love make a world full of sin and death and misery, and say its good, if he had no plan to redeem all that he created? Is that the God of scripture or is he a God like in Rom 11:32 "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all"
1 Cor 13 4:13 Love is magnanimous, love is kind, is not envios, love does not bost, does not bluster, Does not act in a unseemly fashion, does not seek for things of its own, is not irascible, DOES NOT TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE EVIL DEED, Does not rejoice in injustice, but rejoices with the truth; It tolerates all things, has faith in all things, hopes in all things, endures all things, LOVE NEVER FAILS,but if there are prophecies, they will be made ineffectual; if tongues, they will cease, if knowledge it will be made ineffectual, For we know partially and we prophesy partially; But when that which is complete comes. what is partial will be rendered futile. When I was an infant, I spoke like an infant. I thought like an infant, I reckoned like an infant; having become a man, I did away with infantile things. For as yet we dee by way of a mirror, in an enigma, but then face to face; as yet I know partially, but then I shall know fully, just as I am fully known. But now abide in faith, hope, love- these three- and the greatest of these is love." God is LOVE.
Is 46:11 " Indeed, I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed the plan indeed, I shall do it"
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
Lamentations 3:31-33 For the Lord will not reject us forever, though he causes grief, he then has compassion onus according to the ABUNDANCE OF HID LOYAL KINDNESS, for hi is not predisposed to afflict or to grieve people.
I hope this clears up what i was trying to say.




































jes
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I understand that.

99.9% of folks will not see Him for who He is, while they still live.

It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)
If the dross isn't removed here, during one's life, it will be too late later on.

It is written..."...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:10-12)
Your cited bowing and confessing, will be done under the realization that nothing will be hidden from Him who judges rightly.
And that judgement is final, and eternal.
Why is it too late after the mortal body is gone? Scripture no place states that , in fact Jesus seeks the lost until he finds them, and he has all the time he wants. Heb 9:27 is about the judgement not the sentence. why do you think the judgement is the same as the sentence?
 
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Hoping2

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Then Jesus should have kept his mouth shut on the matters.
The devil had yet to be conquered, during Jesus' life.
Man shall live by every Word of God. Not just the words we happen to like and discount the words we don't like.
Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3
So, you are pro-circumcision for salvation.
I must disagree.
Paul did provide us ample opportunity to view O.T. texts including the law and the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael as allegory. Gal. 4:21-24. 1 Cor. 9:9-10
And if that much is allegory, it's all allegory and directly applicable as such to everyone
Most of the OT Laws, excluding the ten commandments given to Moses, have been done away with.
The rest of the OT points forward to the coming Messiah and future judgement...among other things.
Allegorical, indeed.
The law remains firmly fixed against the lawlessness within all of us. There is no legitimately getting around this fact.
The Law was made for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, (1 Tim 1:9-10)
Are you still counting yourself amongst that doomed crowd ?
I don't, since my repentance from sin.
I am perfectly fine with the law being against the evil present within me. I'd suggest that's a proper way to view the laws in some respects.
If you are indeed among those Paul wrote that the Law was for...so be it.
Repentance from sin will be available to you, until it is too late.
I'm also totally OK with Paul's view of the laws, whereby every command should be viewed as "love your neighbors." Romans 13:8-10
That, I can agree with...but how do circumcision or dietary rules manifest love for neighbors ?
understanding that the evil present within NO ONE can actually comply on any command.
The motto of the unregenerated.
Those reborn from God's seed do not have "evil within them".
To say it does, makes God responsible for every sin committed by the pretenders !
The notions that God made anyone but Himself in the flesh sinless is a common delusion among too many.
I agree, as the obedient walk in and after the Spirit.
It is written..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. " (Rom 8:9)
It is those in the Spirit, that are perfectly obedient.
Walking in the Spirit also means being truthful to His Words
I have no qualms with that.
IF Jesus for example says evil comes from within via evil lawless thoughts and defiles us, then it does. And our own mind should easily testify to that TRUTH. Otherwise we are merely proven liars to HIS FACTS and are in direct contradictions to HIS DISCLOSURES. Not to mention searing our own minds with perpetual lies that are against what GOD SAYS about the matters.
I am glad Paul wrote Rom 8:1-2..."There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
There is no longer evil within those "in Christ Jesus".
It is those "outside" of Jesus that still have the evil in them.
You can certainly take a stance that is opposing to Jesus and the Apostles. Not my problem. It just puts a missing mark on the holders of such contrary to God disclosures
I am glad my stance doesn't disagree with Jesus'.
As you said above..."whereby every command should be viewed as "love your neighbors"...as no sinner can manifest that sort of love that Jesus prescribed, it falls to the repentant/reborn to fulfill His wishes.
It infers nothing of the sorts.
If one is bringing forth evil, and they say they are born of God: that makes God the author of the evil !
God can make and use anything because He is Great Enough to do so.
I agree.
No created thing or the sum of all created things can never (sic) equal The Creator in any case.
I disagree.
You eliminated "walking as Jesus walked", (1 John 2:6), from that which God re-created us to be able to do.
That matter is one of division from our adversary. Not as a matter of self delusion.
It looked like it was from Paul, who had the Spirt of God in him.
You're not saying Paul is your adversary...are you ?
Paul openly testified that he had evil present within himself in the forms of lawless thoughts, Romans 7,
Paul's narrative was of his past, while still in the flesh (Rom 7:5), and under the Law (Rom 7:6).
His Rom 8 continuation, illustrates his having been freed from all of that !
that he has temptation in his flesh, Gal. 4:14,
Temptation is not sin.
that he even had a devil in his own flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7
You skew the intent.
What Paul labeled a 'messenger of Satan', he later defined, in verse 9 and 10, as an infirmity of his vessel.
You are misequating the devil with an infirmity.
and in the light of these truthful disclosures that did make Paul and THE ADVERSARY present with him the "chief of sinners" after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:5
Again you skew it.
He was the chief of those saved !
You are again misequating the saved with sinners !
This fact, Mark 4:15 is a fact for Paul and a fact for all of us. It's the fulcrum of Jesus' disclosures and taught extensively by the Apostles.
Why dwell on the losers, when the same parable also cites those who ended up bearing fruit a hundred fold ?
No one should be viewed as a sole individual. This is an aspect that is totally unique to scripture.
I don't know what prompted that...
But to "see it" a person has to be "truthful" about it. Otherwise it can be in plain sight and no liar or opposer will be able to see it, because they can not. Another unique thing about scripture.
If there is a devil, or many devils in you, it is time to repent permanently of sin and start to walk in the light, wherein is no sin. (1 John1:5)
There is also the matters of taking it up, which does tend to rile the adversary. That that is also part of God's Own Plans. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Psalm 104:24-26, Rev. 13:1 and many many others?
?
Except for the fact that in the entirety of it Paul uses the present tense, not past tense.
Much of it is actually in the historical-present tense.
A past even told from a present time perspective.
Those who claim past tense have had it changed to things it does not say to justify their delusions. And really that's what the adversary does to people. It falsely justifies them in order to hide himself.
Look up "historical-present tense" on google.
In case you miss the obvious he clearly says his flesh still serves the law of sin, Romans 7:25 The reasons for which is obvious. Romans 11:32.
It's a good thing he also noted that he was no longer in the flesh, in Rom 7:5.
His Rom 8:9 writings verify that he is no longer in the "flesh"; and our own freedom from the "flesh" too, thanks be to God.
Every person who has ever lived has died "in sin" other than Jesus.
What about Enoch, and Elijah, and John the Baptist ?
My own death for my past sins occurred when I was water baptized into Christ's death and burial and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)
Anyone who is honest about internal temptations in our own minds via the tempter should simply be honest about the facts of it. Not dishonest. Why would anyone want to be dishonest and engaged in coverups and excuses?
Beats me ?
But I also wonder why anyone would not be honest about Jesus' making us free from all of that ? (Rom 6:7)
Paul said we are no better. Romans 3:9
His attempt at showing his Jewish readers (listeners) tht they were no different than the Gentiles was to show the Jews, that even with the Law, they were no better off than any Gentile.
And, that both could be changed !
That "fleeing" comes from honesty, when we are shown the difference between ourselves and WHO we are engaged in struggling with.
There is no victory in dishonesty, hypocrisy and lies.
That "fleeing" is made possible by the power of God in the believers.
God will not dwell in a polluted temple.
 
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Hoping2

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Why is it too late after the mortal body is gone? Scripture no place states that , in fact Jesus seeks the lost until he finds them, and he has all the time he wants. Heb 9:27 is about the judgement not the sentence. why do you think the judgement is the same as the sentence?
God's judgement is true, and based on the acts done while still in the skin and bones.
He has stated the punishment, but it seems you don't want to believe God on the matter.
Matt 25:45-46..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life."

It would behoove you to research the ways of the righteous, instead of a false hope for the unrighteous.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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It’s because I’m a thinker and a slow one at that. I take my time, reflect, pray and move forward with what I know God has revealed to me. I have many questions before the Lord concerning those texts but none of them would I consider sharing with you as I don’t need you to tell me what I know/believe. I will wait on Him to reveal to me what I do not know and praise Him for what He has shown me.
I have been this way over the years as well over certain texts at times. So I'm sorry for letting my passion overflow. It's not anger.

My reply: Apology accepted … for the record, I am not innocent of this very same thing so I understand and respect your passion.

My perception of your reply tells me you are troubled in your spirit. Angry.
Sorry, if I'm coming off that way. I'd admit my passion for these types of subjects does take over at times. And that does not translate well at times online. I'm not angry and definitely not troubled in spirit. I'm actually closer in my walk than I've ever been with our Father. But it's my view that doctrines like this can be dangerous. That's why my passion in discussion runs over. You don't believe it's dangerous and have no problem promoting it. And I try and refute it -with scripture. That's all. You don't believe I have refuted anything so I will back off for sure.

My reply: I don’t believe the teaching of Universal Reconciliation is dangerousness because it is in the Scriptures. Now, concerning the unscriptural teaching of ECT? That is, in my opinion, an assault against the NAME and character of our Father. I despise that teaching of which I once held and every time I hear it being espoused as Scripturally supported my blood boils. No need to back off what you believe the Scriptures are teaching just don’t speak for me. But again, I love and respect your passion!

Someone on a message board planted seeds for me about certain doctrines I believed in most of my life. And I took what they said and went into the Bible and saw that what they were telling me was the truth. I was certainly troubled in spirit at that time. I had to do a lot of soul searching. Because it's a lot harder to unlearn certain things than to learn them. That's how what indoctrinated I was with certain beliefs. But I saw the truth they had planted for me. That's what first got me to read the Bible in it's entirety for the first time. I was seeking truth and dropping any false doctrines along the way. So that's usually what I do these days over certain doctrines that I believe to be false and dangerous. I'm not trying to come off has high and mighty and arrogant, honestly. I do not know all there is to know. I grew up on a church pew and yet it was only 25 years ago that I first read the bible in it's entirety. I had been fed milk all my life and as the Bible teaches we have to move past the foundation and into the meat. Sorry to go on about these things but wanted to tell you where I am coming from. Because I am not troubled in spirit. I am just overly passionate. And if it comes off as angry, again, I'm sorry. I need to just post my scriptures for the most part and move on.

My Reply: My walk in faith is much like yours. My eyes were opened to the truth of my need of Christ for forgiveness and life when I was 19. I’m now 63. About 12 years ago a brother in Christ who went by the name KingsKidd challenged my position on the Scriptural veracity of hell. After a rather lengthy investigation in to the teaching I was shocked to find out I had swallowed a lie. I never once doubted by position in Christ after learning the truth, but like you, my relationship with my Father changed and moved in to a deeper and fuller understanding of the depth of His love and the nature and essence of WHO HE IS: Love. Light. Spirit.
I determined to never again submit myself to the authority and teaching of any church or any man-made creed, regardless of what anyone else thought. I presented myself before the Lord, and all the doctrines I had been taught by orthodoxy, placed them all on the table for Him to further expose any other man-made teachings I held. I’ve never been more at peace in my faith …
Time to look in the mirror my dear sister in Christ … your heart is troubled indeed.
Why? Because I want to discuss God's word, not man's? Again, my heart is not troubled. But I will back down because I'm offending you. And that wasn't my intention. I didn't seek you out originally, you brought me in over a post that I actually still believe in. You naturally see if differently because you believe differently and was offended by it.

My reply: The above comment about looking in the mirror was intended to remind you not to condemn me. Not for discussing or defending your position.
ou project your beliefs on to me/others to provide yourself affirmation.
No, just trying to post scripture that refutes your beliefs. We are to use scripture that way.

My reply: But indeed you did which is why I was offended. I was not, am not offended by your use or interpretation of Scripture. I was offended when you made assumptions about my beliefs and informed me of what I know. Apology already rendered and accepted just stated for clarification of why I was offended.

1). “Why do you state that Christ ultimately saves everyone but it's obvious you don't believe that because if he can't get it done the LOF will do the job.”
2). “We both know only those not found written in the book of "life" were thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. Christ's words, not mine.”

You really should take the time to look up those 11 verses of Scripture pertaining to “made alive
I have and it's the same Greek word that's in this verse translated as quickened.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

My reply: The Christ was quickened, made alive, by the Spirit and the second Adam became a life- giving Spirit (1st Cor.15:45), thus ALL those in Adam are made alive, quickened in Christ!

Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


It doesn't mean eternal life at that point. There's a difference. A man dies and then he is quickened (made alive) in the spirit and then he will be judged -good or bad.

My reply:
”For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭ESV‬‬

All in Adam died physically and spiritually. The “so also” connects the same in Adam who are physically and spiritually dead with the same in Christ being made alive physically and spiritually. Then Paul states “but each in his order”. There is no life of any kind, physical or spiritual, apart from Christ. Made alive in Christ IS life eternal.

Pretty sure I have been honest with you. No?
I was talking about this thread in general. More than once Jeff posted scriptures and omitted and added to certain verses. That's very deceptive and not honest at all. And accused another of doing the very same thing. And then later promoted the reading of man's word to get a better understanding of their view.


Instead of dealing with the text in Revelation 2
I don't have a problem with Revelation 2. That's actually one of the churches Christ doesn't find fault with. They line up in particular to Revelation 12 with both defeating Satan/the devil by their testimony and are faithful to the death -physical. And of course at that point as Christ states later, the Second Death has no power over them. So it naturally can't hurt them.

My reply:
1). “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty ( but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Would you say those who were not faithful unto death: who thus are not given the crown of life, thereby not deemed to be conquerers and thus failed their testing … unbelievers? If you answer yes, your position on the LOF is consistent. If you deem them to be weak believers who failed in their testing, (post edit for personal translation error), your position on the LOF is unstable or at the least, should be up for re-examination.

2). ”And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

At this point in my journey of faith I am not convinced the “book of life” is what is most commonly thought to be. That is, a sort of checklist for those who are believers. This passage informs us the books were opened, along with the “book of life”, and the dead were judged according to what they had done. Judged according to their works. It seems like the books and the “book of life” are running parallel to one another.

Perhaps the works, or lack thereof, being judged determine if one’s name is blotted out of the “book of life” for failing to walk in the good works God had ordained that they should perform? “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.“ Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬ ‭ESV‬‬. Perhaps this speaks to the interpretation of Mathew 25 where the nations are judged by their works and separated accordingly? Perhaps they are judged for their failure and faithlessness during their time of testing (Rev. 2:11). Also, one’s interpretation of Revelation and the rest of Scripture depends on one’s eschatology.

Finally. This passage tells us Death and Hades are cast in to the LOF which IS the second death. Is not the death of death the Second Death? Perhaps Jeff‘s position is correct. Sin is the sting of death. If death dies the death of death then perhaps those who are cast in to the LOF are going there to have death purged from them? ”But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭8‬ ‭ESV‬‬

By the way, it is stated by many that Scripture never states anyone comes out of the LOF. True. Equally true. Scripture never says they do not come out. But the Scripture does say that when all authority is handed back to the Father, God will be All in All.

blessings



If man is appointed to die once how can there be a Second Death?
Because that's what Christ tells me. And it aligns with his teaching. A man dies and then comes judgement. He dies once and then goes before Judgement where the Second Death would take place if that were to be the case. Not everyone will die the Second Death of course. So they then would be only dying once.

Most of your position/belief hinges on the LOF,
No, they don't. When we take the bible as a whole, it's always been life or death. Those who have everlasting life and those who perish. I believe that and don't try to find any wiggle room.

Even one of the most famous verses tells us that simple truth.


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I believe it would be worded very differently if what you believe is true.

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Jeff Saunders

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God's judgement is true, and based on the acts done while still in the skin and bones.
He has stated the punishment, but it seems you don't want to believe God on the matter.
Matt 25:45-46..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life."

It would behoove you to research the ways of the righteous, instead of a false hope for the unrighteous.
If you would put the English Bible aside and study the Greek words that are the original, you would understand that what the English says as everlasting punishment is not in the Greek. It’s aionios kolasis , which is the punishment of the age. The word used for punishment kolasis is a restorative punishment, punishment to remove all that does not produce fruit. God is in the business of reconciliation not abandonment. He is saving us not our temporary tent we live in for a short time, we are not our bodies, we are spirit and that is what Jesus died for not our mortal body.
 
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David Lamb

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Well, like John said, anyone can claim to love God but...proof is in neighbor love. Exactly as Paul also shows us in Romans 13:8-10

It's only unfortunate that soooo many supposed believers CAN'T believe that anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7

Nope, gotta have a specific brand of Jesus stamp. Except Jesus IS LOVE regardless of branding or stàmping

Lower the barriers

Time for everyone to come in. Brands be damned
So are you agreeing with me that loving one's neighbour is not the whole gospel, and that no one can say, "I am saved because I love my neighbour?"

I don't know what your sentence, "Nope, gotta have a specific brand of Jesus stamp." means.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Did you use Bible Hub for your info , because if you did you misses it both "all" are the same in Rom 5:18 pantas which is all not all kinds
Rom 5 is not an exaggeration at all, its history or an accurate account of things.
Yes I did look it up in Biblehub and pas and pantas are not used in verse 19. Polus is used not pas or pantas.

 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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So are you agreeing with me that loving one's neighbour is not the whole gospel, and that no one can say, "I am saved because I love my neighbour?"
I don't draw lines between Jesus and love. They are one and the same regardless of people's ill intentions of branding
I don't know what your sentence, "Nope, gotta have a specific brand of Jesus stamp." means.
Your position will more than likely claim some "necessary and vital steps" beyond loving our neighbors in order for Jesus to save anyone.

Jesus saves even enemies of the Gospel, post death no less. Romans 11:26-32, Rev. 5:13
 
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