I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[BNR32FAN]

You are comparing apples to oranges.
The people from biblical times were no different than us today in that they had exaggerated expressions no different from today, If I said " its raining cats and dogs" no one would think that cats and dogs were falling from the sky, and we think as westerners. The Eastern mind is different, they exaggerate things to an even greater scale than we do. To the Eastern mind if you said the whole town all of them came out to see something, they would understand that did not mean every single person no different than us. Now when scripture says " Jacob I have loved Esau I hate" , the eastern mindset would not think that God hated Esau , but that Jacob was definitely the favored one. Exaggerations are just part of the culture, thats why they wail and cry to exaggeration for days, its part of the culture.
They still understand context so when scripture says 1 Cor 15 21:28 " As in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live" , they see that the sentence is a direct correlation and would understand the all as all, not some exaggeration. They may think differently but they are not stupid.
We are no different today, if you asked someone, who had to dog in the fight, is the all in Adam the same all as in Jesu, the obvious answer is of course, but when tradition and religion come in to play, all of a sudden the plain meaning threatens the very piller that they have built the house of cards on and will go to extreme lengths to explain the obvious away.
For example we are told Gods will is most important and must be done and obeyed, but when scripture says in 1 Tim 2:3-6 that its Gods will none should perish but all men are to be saved and come to the knowledge of him, now scripture as written threatens the pillar of the faith,( eternal hell ) we have to make up stuff like two will of God, as if God is in conflict with himself, these are man made gods, not the God of scripture.
So I stand by my statement and know that God does not do abandonment and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

Right just like Romans 3:10-12 is an exaggeration or actually it’s intended to be a proverbial saying which is exactly what Romans 5:18 is doing because if you read verse 19 it doesn’t use the word pas.

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many (polus) will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[YeshuaFan]

So you do not believe scripture as written in the original language is true but your tradition most likely derived from the English is correct?
I was on you-tube the other day and a guy actually said that the King James Bible corrected the Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in, are you one of those types.

No far from being a KJVO as my favorite translations are Esv and 1995 Nas

 

[YeshuaFan]

So you do not believe scripture as written in the original language is true but your tradition most likely derived from the English is correct?
I was on you-tube the other day and a guy actually said that the King James Bible corrected the Greek and Hebrew that the Bible was written in, are you one of those types.

Jesus warned more about the really bad news of Hell more than any other subject

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Hi Hoping 2. I’m curious … Could you please share with me, from the Philippians 2 text, “before” you support your view from other Scriptures, how you arrive at your conclusion that this confession is from the “justifiably terrified?” Every brother in Christ, who holds to the doctrine of ECT, maintains this bowing of the knee and confession of The Lordship of Jesus to be forced or performed in fear.

Any man that truly loves Jesus, won't wait until he is His kneeling at His foot to manifest his allegiance.

My reply: This makes no sense to me … sorry.

The disobedient people's last desperate act, before their sentence is read, will be their last, and futile, attempt at salvation.
Salvation by their own doings/without Christ...in a way.

My reply: Nothing from the text but I understand where you arrived at your comments.

I'ld like to know why you feel Hitler, and all the other sinners, will be glad to see Jesus on the day of judgement.
My reply: Now that is quite the leap don't you think? Listen, I’m not going to convince you of anything concerning our Father’s heart. The word translated “confess” in Philippians 2:11 is used 10 times in the NT. Here are just a few:

1). ”and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Matthew 3:6 and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. | American Standard Version (ASV) | Download The Bible App Now

and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

bible.com

2). ”At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬-‭26‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Matthew 11:25-26 At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Fath | American Standard Version (ASV

At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Fath

bible.com

3). ”And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went away, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might deliver him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he consented, and sought opportunity to deliver him unto them in the absence of the multitude.“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭3‬-‭6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Luke 22:3-6 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went away, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might deliver him unto them. And the | American Standard Version (ASV) | D

And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went away, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might deliver him unto them. And the

bible.com

4). ”For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Romans 15:8-9 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mer | American Standard Version (ASV) |

For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mer

bible.com

Note: Not one single instance in the above 4 (or the other 6) passages that denotes, even remotely close, to being anything else other than a willingness by the person. Read them for yourself … Draw your own conclusions …

It is my opinion that each passage of Scripture should be able to stand on its own merit within the immediate context of which it was written, to establish the truth intended by its author under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. THEN, the rest of Scriptures are available from which to draw support for your interpretation.

I concur.

”So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

My interpretation, based solely on the Philippians txt, to follow after your reply.
blessings …
Click to expand...

Thanks for the blessing.
I note this in verse 12..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."...

My reply: Various translations render “fear” as “awe.” I find this translation to be more inline with the overall character of this passage.

”My beloved ones, just like you’ve always listened to everything I’ve taught you in the past, I’m asking you now to keep following my instructions as though I were right there with you. Now you must continue to make this new life fully manifested as you live in the holy awe of God—which brings you trembling into his presence.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭TPT‬‬

Philippians 2:12 My beloved ones, just like you’ve always listened to everything I’ve taught you in the past, I’m asking you now to keep following my instructions as though I were right there with you. Now you must co | The Passion Translation (TPT)

My beloved ones, just like you’ve always listened to everything I’ve taught you in the past, I’m asking you now to keep following my instructions as though I were right there with you. Now you must co

bible.com

Additionally, it makes the portion of Scripture you left out, much more viable and honoring to our Father’s heart.

”God will continually revitalize you, implanting within you the passion to do what pleases him.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭13‬ ‭TPT‬‬

Philippians 2:13 God will continually revitalize you, implanting within you the passion to do what pleases him. | The Passion Translation (TPT) | Download The Bible App Now

God will continually revitalize you, implanting within you the passion to do what pleases him.

bible.com

Why would we be trembling in fear when our Heavenly Father is directly involved with our personal sanctification? My brother, it appears to me you, and so many, many, many others are living in fear! The gospel of fear you carry around on your shoulders must be very burdensome and carries with it very little resemblance of the heart of our Father.


Why so much fear and trembling here and now, if our actions before death will bear no consequences ?

My reply: Where in the world did you get the idea that I believe our actions will bear no consequences?


Why not... "Eat drink and be merry, as you will still get one more shot at eternal life" ?

My reply: The present state of Christianity, at least in this country, ought to be sufficient enough for you to re-consider the words you just penned as a slant against Universal Reconciliation.

blessings

”I pray with great faith for you, because I’m fully convinced that the One who began this gracious work in you will faithfully continue the process of maturing you until the unveiling of our Lord Jesus Christ!“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬ ‭TPT‬‬

Philippians 1:6 I pray with great faith for you, because I’m fully convinced that the One who began this gracious work in you will faithfully continue the process of maturing you until the unveiling of our Lord Jesus | The Passion Translation (TPT) |

I pray with great faith for you, because I’m fully convinced that the One who began this gracious work in you will faithfully continue the process of maturing you until the unveiling of our Lord Jesus

bible.com

 

[Hoping2]

Again, you at least get the opponents on the table in the here and now. They should not be ignored in our theology understandings

The devil isn't worth mentioning.

Every Word of God applies to all of us, cover to cover. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3. Both good and bad.

I guess I should have said..."Some things from the OT no longer apply..."
Are you still advocating circumcision ?

And you do understand it is Jesus speaking from the O.T. prophets, as God? 1 Pet. 1:10-11. So, no. God didn't change.

I do understand that, and I agree that God does not change.
However, the covenant/testimony HAS changed.
The inability to walk in the Spirit all the time has changed too.
What OT men were not enabled to do, NT men have been enabled and equipt to do.

The evil present in no one cooperates with God other than to resist.

I can't agree, as those reborn of God have no evil at all in them.
To say they do, infers that God has evil in Him.
Those in Christ, have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Romans 7, entire chapter. In addition to other statements of fact by Jesus saying the same facts i.e. Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 7:11, Luke 11:13. Heb. 10:22 as well. All showing quite clearly we have an evil conscience. In fact I'm only surprised at how blind people can be to the fact of it, that's how deceptive it is. Evil thoughts are just brushed off as if they don't exist. But that is never the case. They exist because they exist. It is the hinge point of Jer. 17:9

Most of Rom 7 is a narrative of Paul's past, trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law.
He reiterates that fact in the very last verse, where he says he is now serving the law of God, with his mind.
He made it clear in verse 5, that he was no longer in the "flesh".

Except for the multiple millions who lived and died prior to Jesus in the flesh. God could have picked from any numbers of them for specific examples and in fact IF such a fate was real for people and was based on our "choices" then it would be a severe error on God's part NOT to give a single named example.

God is the God of the living: so all those who died while dead in trespasses and sin will have to wait until the day of judgement for their final destination.

But alas, the position that so many believers hold dear really doesn't have a leg of support in scripture.

I won't make arguments from an absence of information.

Thinking any person does only sheep works and never goat works is the lowest of deceptions.

Thinking otherwise nullifies Jesus victory over sin and death.
In Him, we can partake in those victories !

IF Mark 4:15 is true and IF devils do occupy people in the forms of disobedient spirits which they do as shown throughout the N.T. THEN this question must bring the other parties to bear. Those who ignore are merely being used to provide COVER for our enemies unseen.

Why do you not just say devils ?
To conclude that there are devils in those sanctified by the blood of Christ, does Jesus a major injustice.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

 

[Hoping2]

This statement

OK

Universalism just like OSAS in my opinion seems very similar to what satan said to Eve in the garden when he tricked her into eating the forbidden fruit. “Surely you will not die”. Both of these doctrines teach a similar message.

Good point.
Thanks.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Loving our neighbour(s) is part of the gospel, but I think it is stretching it too far to say that loving our neighbour is the gospel. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" is also part of the gospel.

Well, like John said, anyone can claim to love God but...proof is in neighbor love. Exactly as Paul also shows us in Romans 13:8-10

It's only unfortunate that soooo many supposed believers CAN'T believe that anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7

Nope, gotta have a specific brand of Jesus stamp. Except Jesus IS LOVE regardless of branding or stàmping

Lower the barriers

Time for everyone to come in. Brands be damned

 

[Jeff Saunders]

OK

Good point.
Thanks.

Not even close, you really need to study on Christian Universal Redemption, your understanding is very limited, many of the early church fathers taught this, and if you would take the time to read some good books you would understand the arguments for it and be better informed on your opposition.

 

[JulieB67]

and if you would take the time to read some good books you would understand the arguments for it and be better informed on your opposition.

Why would you promote someone reading anything over the Word of God? We should take our truth from God, no man.

Can you not see what you're doing and promoting makes this prophecy ring so very true?

II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

II Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto unto fables."

So many false doctrines out there, this being one of them. But it just strengthens my faith in a way because it's another prophecy foretold coming true before our very eyes.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Why would you promote someone reading anything over the Word of God? We should take our truth from God, no man.

Can you not see what you're doing and promoting makes this prophecy ring so very true?

II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

II Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto unto fables."

So many false doctrines out there, this being one of them. But it just strengthens my faith in a way because it's another prophecy foretold coming true before our very eyes.

I’m sorry but don’t you think it’s a bit arrogant to quote this passage of Scripture; thinking to yourself “you” have the correct interpretation and Jeff (others like myself) are the ones being prophesied about? Just saying … we could say the same of you. No?

Blessings …

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Right just like Romans 3:10-12 is an exaggeration or actually it’s intended to be a proverbial saying which is exactly what Romans 5:18 is doing because if you read verse 19 it doesn’t use the word pas.

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many (polus) will be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Did you use Bible Hub for your info , because if you did you misses it both "all" are the same in Rom 5:18 pantas which is all not all kinds
Rom 5 is not a exaggeration at all, its history or an accurate account of things.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus warned more about the really bad news of Hell more than any other subject

That preaches good but is just not true. the English word "hell" is not even in the original text, what the agenda of the Augustinian church is to take the pagan concept of a eternal hell and make it part of scripture.
What we call "hell" is five words all put together to make our God no different than the pagan gods of old.
1-Sheol/ Grave - this is the OT word translated as "hell" , this was just the place of the dead, all people went to Sheol at death,
2-Hades - refers to the place or state of the departed spirits,often seen as an intermediate state between heaven and hell were the dead await the Last Judgement.
3-Gehenna- This is the word Jesus used. Gehenna was the place in 2 Chronicles 28:3-33:6 , the Jews did human sacrifice of their children, and was a place that the dead bodies that had been slain by their enemies were dumped and burned and not given a proper burial. The Jews being a shame based society would find this state worse than death itself, it had nothing to do with eternal punishment. For a jew not to be buried properly was a very shameful thing that was carried in the family line.
4-The Lake of Fire- The place of the second death, originally for the fallen angels.
5 Tartarus- A Greek place of the dead, used in the book of Job
Jesus spoke of Gehenna because his audience was Jews and for a Jew to not have a proper burial was shameful and the history of the Jews following idols and killing babies was one of the most shameful things that they could think of. It had nothing to do with a place that God would torture his creation for all eternity.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why would you promote someone reading anything over the Word of God? We should take our truth from God, no man.

Can you not see what you're doing and promoting makes this prophecy ring so very true?

II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

II Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto unto fables."

So many false doctrines out there, this being one of them. But it just strengthens my faith in a way because it's another prophecy foretold coming true before our very eyes.

Do you read Hebrew? Do you read the Greek of 2000 years ago? or Aramaic, If you do then that's good keep it up because I do not. I speak and read English, and according to my wife I do not do that as well as I should, I have to rely on what other men have written as accurate and true, many time I have found that in translating, agendas have been brought in, by reading other mens work the mistakes or agendas can be corrected or avoided, so I read what the early church fathers wrote and what they understood scripture to mean, some directly from one of the original 12. ( early church fathers are from the first about 300 years after Jesus). Our modern day Bibles have translation errors or were done poorly, I use the literal translations that for me are closer to the original. If you read what these early church fathers most of whom Greek was their native language, you can learn a lot of the culture and how they understood scripture and its practice.
I think if you are intellectually honest you would say that most of what you know you learned from other men, unless you have been on an island and had no other influence other than your Bible.

 

[JulieB67]

I’m sorry but don’t you think it’s a bit arrogant to quote this passage of Scripture; thinking to yourself “you” have the correct interpretation

Again, he is promoting others works and I refer back to the word of God. I have asked questions from the Word of God that both Beth and Jeff have ignored- why is that? Do I claim to have all the answers no, but it has to make sense, God is not the author of confusion.

I'll ask you some of the same questions.

Why is there a book of life if everyone ultimately has life?

Why does Christ state that someone can be blotted out if it's not true?

What power does the Second Death have over anyone if no one dies? Christ states it has power.

Why do you state that Christ ultimately saves everyone but it's obvious you don't believe that because if he can't get it done the LOF will do the job.

If the LOF can save why did Christ pay the ultimate sacrifice?

Again, this all has to make sense or what are we doing. We should be able with the right tools to study for ourselves.

When we take the bible as a whole it's always been life or death but you and others are stating we can throw all of that out and it's not true. And to read man's word over God's so we can have a better understanding? I'm not trying to be arrogant but yes, those scriptures ring very true to me when it comes down to something that Christ makes so simple on this issue. He states fear not the one that can kill the body but fear the one that can kill both body and soul. And he seconds that in Revelation calling it the Second Death. We have the Malachi verses that state the wicked will be turned to ashes, rubble, etc. That's what fire does and that's what Christ has told us -body and soul. Second Death.

Just saying … we could say the same of you. No?

Itchy ears goes in line with someone's own desires. Do I want to see people die? No, of course not. Do I want to suffer tribulation? No but if that's expected of me I will suffer and as Paul states to accept the love of the truth. That's what I knew and realized after having been taught a pretrib rapture all my life and dropped it after seeing it wasn't biblical. Of course that's another topic altogether...

But this false doctrine - one has to pick out verses instead of taking the Bible as a whole to believe it. One has to leave out so much of the Word. That's why I have questions on why would someone seek man's word over God's? And in doing so those verses certainly come to mind.

 

[JulieB67]

I think if you are intellectually honest you would say that most of what you know you learned from other men,

Until about 25 years ago, yes. That's why I'm so against it. I was fed false doctrines like a pretrib rapture, ECT and so on. Man will lead you astray. Our best bet is the Word. And yes, helpful tools because many words can get lost in translation. It's good to have teachers but we have to back up what they say vs the Word and drop any desires or preconceived ideas that "tickle" the ears.

 

[Hoping2]

Not even close, you really need to study on Christian Universal Redemption, your understanding is very limited, many of the early church fathers taught this, and if you would take the time to read some good books you would understand the arguments for it and be better informed on your opposition.

If you are expecting Herod, Hitler, or Tojo, to be in heaven on the day of judgement, you are very mistaken.
Jesus said..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)
I will believe Jesus over anyone labeled a church father, any day.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Until about 25 years ago, yes. That's why I'm so against it. I was fed false doctrines like a pretrib rapture, ECT and so on. Man will lead you astray. Our best bet is the Word. And yes, helpful tools because many words can get lost in translation. It's good to have teachers but we have to back up what they say vs the Word and drop any desires or preconceived ideas that "tickle" the ears.

That is exactly what I have tried to do, I do find the early church fathers are a good help for me.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

If you are expecting Herod, Hitler, or Tojo, to be in heaven on the day of judgement, you are very mistaken.
Jesus said..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)
I will believe Jesus over anyone labeled a church father, any day.

I see you do not understand the ages of God, this age we live in is just one age, most will not see God for who he is in this age , most need to have the world striped from them before they see. Once the dross is removed they will see and scripture tells us " every knee will bow and every tongue will confess " and the Greek word confess is what all believers have or will do.

 

[timothyu]

Man will lead you astray.

Of course because it serves the will of man. The Will of God simply says not to put our will ahead of His, thus loving neighbour as self, repent of our backward ways and spread the good news He will return to take authourity away for man

 

[timothyu]

I do find the early church fathers are a good help

We’re they not creating a backstory for the current movement?