I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[BNR32FAN]

So Samuel was wrong?

No Samuel wasn’t wrong, that what the lying woman said to king David. She was not a prophet, she was not speaking on God’s behalf, and she was not sent by God to give this message. She was a liar trying to pursue David to forgive his son Absalom for killing Ammon because he raped Absalom’s sister which was a lawful killing according to Jewish law. So no, Samuel wasn’t wrong at all, that’s what the lying woman said.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not assuming anything. Samuel made a statement. Is his statement accurate or not?

Samuel didn’t make the statement, he was quoting what the lying woman said to David. This wasn’t a message from Samuel, he was quoting the lying woman.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please read the following and then ask yourself, does this sound like a being that created souls knowing that he would torture them, let alone forever?

1 John 4:7-21​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

God Is Love​

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

So how do you explain Revelation 20:13-15?

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because of the verses in the OP and more. I believe they likely went into the Lake of Fire but it's not forever and it's ultimately about chastening for the purpose of correction, refinement, and restoration. Remember, in Revelation Jesus says "Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new!".

Do you believe that Jesus meant all things when he said "all things"?

We’re all in Judea coming to John the Baptist to be baptized?

“Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The term “all things” is a pretty vague term and can mean anything.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I appreciate your honesty. I believe the Bible and that's why I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God's Kingdom.

Do you believe Matthew 7:21?

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because of the verses in the OP and more. I believe they likely went into the Lake of Fire but it's not forever and it's ultimately about chastening for the purpose of correction, refinement, and restoration. Remember, in Revelation Jesus says "Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new!".

Do you believe that Jesus meant all things when he said "all things"?

The lake of fire is where souls are destroyed, not corrected.

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi Hoping 2. I’m curious … Could you please share with me, from the Philippians 2 text, “before” you support your view from other Scriptures, how you arrive at your conclusion that this confession is from the “justifiably terrified?” Every brother in Christ, who holds to the doctrine of ECT, maintains this bowing of the knee and confession of The Lordship of Jesus to be forced or performed in fear.

It is my opinion that each passage of Scripture should be able to stand on its own merit within the immediate context of which it was written, to establish the truth intended by its author under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. THEN, the rest of Scriptures are available from which to draw support for your interpretation.

”So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Philippians 2:1-18 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i | English Standard Version Rev

So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i

bible.com

My interpretation, based solely on the Philippians txt, to follow after your reply.

blessings …

In Romans 14 Paul said that every knee will bow and every tongue confess before we stand to be judged according to our deeds. And in Matthew 7 Jesus said “Not everyone who says Lord Lord to Me will enter the kingdom of heaven”. According to this bowing and proclaiming Christ as Lord on Judgement Day doesn’t result in salvation otherwise Revelation 20:15 is a useless statement.

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB 1995

 

[bob121]

The "out of context" usage occurs when the verse is lifted from its specific narrative setting – a manipulative but wise speech by a woman trying to influence a king for a very particular purpose – and then applied as a broad, universally applicable theological truth about God's nature or the afterlife, without considering the speaker's immediate agenda or the larger story. The verse is an argument for reconciliation and mercy, framed within an understanding of human mortality and divine compassion, specifically to bring Absalom back from exile to his father.

 

[Beth77]

But it doesn't mean they all will be.

So you agree that God is incapable of getting what he wants, right?

 

[Beth77]

The "out of context" usage occurs when the verse is lifted from its specific narrative setting – a manipulative but wise speech by a woman trying to influence a king for a very particular purpose – and then applied as a broad, universally applicable theological truth about God's nature or the afterlife, without considering the speaker's immediate agenda or the larger story. The verse is an argument for reconciliation and mercy, framed within an understanding of human mortality and divine compassion, specifically to bring Absalom back from exile to his father.

The Bible describes that woman as "wise".

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It would have been much easier if you had just selected three or four of your main supporting Bible verses to back up your 'belief'. We could address each and every verse you've shown, but for the sake of time and everyone's patience, that would be difficult. So, I'll give you three responses from a Reformed view to counter your 'Universal salvation plan':

Romans 5:18 & 1 Corinthians 15:22 (The "Corporate All")
Universalist Claim: These verses parallel Adam's condemnation of "all" with Christ's justification of "all," suggesting universal salvation.

Reformed Counter-Argument: The "all" in these verses refers to two distinct groups: those "in Adam" (all humanity by nature, condemned) and those "in Christ" (the elect, justified by faith). Just as Adam's headship brought condemnation to his descendants, Christ's headship brings life to those united to Him. This highlights a universal scope within the elect, not salvation for every individual.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Common vs. Special Grace)
Universalist Claim: God is "the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe," implying universal salvation.

Reformed Counter-Argument: God is the "Savior of all people" in a general, providential sense (common grace), sustaining life and offering salvation broadly. He's "especially" the Savior of believers through His specific, saving grace. This distinguishes God's general care for all from His particular, effective salvation for the elect.

John 12:32 (Nature of "Drawing" and "Lifting Up")
Universalist Claim: Christ, "lifted up," will "draw ALL people" to Himself, meaning everyone will be saved.

Reformed Counter-Argument: "Lifted up" refers to Christ's crucifixion, which provides salvation. "Draw all people" means drawing people from all nations and ethnic groups (Jews and Gentiles) to Himself, not every single individual. This drawing is effectual only for the elect given to Him by the Father (John 6). It emphasizes the gospel's global reach, not universal salvation.

I hope that helps clarify. If you would like to know more about what the other verses mean, please ask or share your counter arguments.

It is good to ask questions and provide opinions, but we all must study and learn God's word correctly; handle his word with care.

Have a wonderful day/night,

God bless.

I understand that to take scripture as written in the original language undermines your tradition, but the hoops you musts jump through are crazy.
All in Adam is all people but all in Jesus is really all kinds of people? The sentence is a direct parallel the same all in Adam is the same all in Jesus. That's the point to the whole thing, you are distorting the the whole point, with your tradition of men.
1 Tim 4:10 because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men,(that is a direct statement not a general providential one ) especially of those who believe. not only the elect. you are adding to scripture.
John 12:32 the Greek word for draw is helko, like a fishing net literally to drag in all men. The draw all people is not even in the Greek , so your adding to scripture again. Greek says " i am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to Myself." the Greek word for all is pas, meaning all,every, whole, entire. So when you read the Greek your tradition falls apart,
I understand tradition is hard to go against but if you want to be true to God you really need to study this stuff from the original Greek and stop listening to reformed tradition that is not from God but from Gnostic roots.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Then why is he so long suffering waiting for people to come to repentance? He's waiting for "them" to make a change. If what you were to believe were true, why is the world still going on if all he has to do is throw someone into the LOF?




He desires all men to be saved and acknowledge the truth That's the reason he is so long suffering. We know this to be true. But it doesn't mean they all will be.


When he returns, they will have no choice, they will at that point know who he is. It doesn't mean they'll stay that way. Some still will follow Satan in the end, once again. And have you never read the OT? We are to read it for our ensample as Paul states. Many many people saw God's own miracles, worshipped him and still fell away. Many will see Christ and again, still turn away.

We have to take the bible as a whole. We can't just pick and choose verses to back up a doctrine.
The verses you posted about the LOF being a refinery are nothing of the sort.

Malachi 3:2 "But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:"

Malachi 3:3 "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

He purifies in one's lifetime, not the LOF. He's the purifier, not the LOF at the end which is again, make for the devil and his angels.


Hosea 5:15 "I will go and return to my place till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early

There's nothing that suggests this is about the LOF in this verse.



Isaiah 48:10 "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."

This is meant through someone's lifetime. It's about affliction, not the LOF. It also states "I have chosen you" These words would not be used if this meant all were saved in the LOF.



Why is it so hard not to go up one verse to get the context?


Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."


Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

He's talking about the remnant that's left-a third. Two parts are cut off and will die The third remains and he will refine and "try" them. That has nothing to do with the LOF. As you can see the first two parts are not refined at all, they die. So your reasoning with this verse does not work at all. And you conveniently left out the rest which was very important context. You started with "I will put them into fire.." When it actually states- " I will bring a third part through the fire.."

You changed God's word. It's hard to take you seriously after doing so.

Here's what will happen to the wicked-

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch.

Where's the refining?

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's what a fire does and it aligns with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28, destroy in the Greek is to destroy "fully"

And why would Christ tell certain churches they are in danger of having their names blotted out of the book of life if in the end, that wasn't the case? Why even warn them and better yet, why is there a book of life? What's the purpose of the book if all have life in the end?

I don't believe in ECT. God is not in the business of torturing someone for an eternity. He doesn't even want anyone to perish but instead we are to believe he wants to torture someone for an eternity? No. But I do believe Christ when he calls the LOF, the second death. I do believe the wicked will be burned up. I believe our Father is very long suffering not willing anyone to perish but that very verse proves some will perish. That's the very reason he is so long suffering. But there is a point of no return -the Second Death in the LOF. They will be simply wiped out of existence. When we take the bible as a whole it's always been life or death period.

Those verses were not talking about the LOF, I know, they show the heart and character of God, his punishment is always for correction unto reconciliation.
The greek word for destroy is apollumi, it doesn't mean to make something no more or gone, but to destroy is to make it not useful for what it was intended for. Examples the new wine in old wineskins apollumi the wineskin, its still there just can't be used for its intended use. The parables of the lost sheep, coin, these are said to be lost but apollumi is used to show they are no longer of use as intended because they are lost, but later found.
Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed by eternal fire, but Ez 16:53-55 God says he will restore them both.
You say " I believe our Father is very long suffering not willing anyone to perish" Is God too weak to get the job done or is mans will stronger than his? 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promises as some count slackness, but is long suffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, is anything to difficult for me.
Is 46:11 Indeed, I have spoken, Indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed a plan indeed, I shall do it. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No, not at all. Jesus is the Savior of the world because He is the means thru which all can be saved.

John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world. That is a declaration not a possibility, it doesn't say Jesus is the potential savior. You have to add that in to prop up the pagan idea of eternal hell.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

---

That's a fair challenge regarding Philippians 2:10-11. While the verse itself doesn't explicitly say "terror," the idea that the unsaved confess in justified terror isn't an assumption. It's a clear inference when you read Philippians 2 alongside other Scriptures.

The Greek word for confess is Exomologeo - to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations. the very definition of the word makes a forced confession not possible.

 

[Hoping2]

Hi Hoping 2. I’m curious … Could you please share with me, from the Philippians 2 text, “before” you support your view from other Scriptures, how you arrive at your conclusion that this confession is from the “justifiably terrified?” Every brother in Christ, who holds to the doctrine of ECT, maintains this bowing of the knee and confession of The Lordship of Jesus to be forced or performed in fear.

Any man that truly loves Jesus, won't wait until he is His kneeling at His foot to manifest his allegiance.
The disobedient people's last desperate act, before their sentence is read, will be their last, and futile, attempt at salvation.
Salvation by their own doings/without Christ...in a way.
I'ld like to know why you feel Hitler, and all the other sinners, will be glad to see Jesus on the day of judgement ?

It is my opinion that each passage of Scripture should be able to stand on its own merit within the immediate context of which it was written, to establish the truth intended by its author under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. THEN, the rest of Scriptures are available from which to draw support for your interpretation.

I concur.

”So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

My interpretation, based solely on the Philippians txt, to follow after your reply.
blessings …

Thanks for the blessing.
I note this in verse 12..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."...
Why so much fear and trembling here and now, if our actions before death will bear no consequences ?
Why not... "Eat drink and be merry, as you will still get one more shot at eternal life" ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the world. That is a declaration not a possibility, it doesn't say Jesus is the potential savior. You have to add that in to prop up the pagan idea of eternal hell.

I’m not actually sure that hell is eternal. There are passages that support eternal torment and others that support annihilation. I tend to lean more towards annihilation but I’m actually undecided on which is actually correct.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

By providing as alleged parole from eternal destruction, after death, you just might as well say..."Do whatever you want now, as we won't be held responsible by God later" !
That is an accommodation for sin.
God is going to separate the wheat from the chaff.
He is going to separate the sheep from the goats.
He is going to separate the grain from the tares.
Your doctrine says He won't.

I can see from your response you do not understand what the early church taught on Apokatastasis, the Greek word used in Acts 3:21 " In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things," 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
I have never said anyone gets away with anything. All who go into the LOF will be refined, it will not be pleasant, but there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, all those who go get the second death, death of the soul, all that they have done, built and accumulated will be gone, they will live but as through fire. Gods punishments are alway for correction unto repentance. The idea that it is a place of eternal torment is a pagan idea not from God.
God does not tell us how things are going to work but what we do know is this, all those who go to the LOF lose their inheritance, and suffer loss, God is loving and all his judgement is from love, he will not give out one once more than is needed or one once less than what is needed.

 

[Hoping2]

I can see from your response you do not understand what the early church taught on Apokatastasis, the Greek word used in Acts 3:21 " In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things," 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
I have never said anyone gets away with anything. All who go into the LOF will be refined, it will not be pleasant, but there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, all those who go get the second death, death of the soul, all that they have done, built and accumulated will be gone, they will live but as through fire. Gods punishments are alway for correction unto repentance. The idea that it is a place of eternal torment is a pagan idea not from God.

It is written..."41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:41-46)
That doesn't look 'pagan' to me.

God does not tell us how things are going to work but what we do know is this, all those who go to the LOF lose their inheritance, and suffer loss, God is loving and all his judgement is from love, he will not give out one once more than is needed or one once less than what is needed.

I don't believe your doctrine.
Our chance to repent is now; not after years, or centuries, of suffering.

 

[bob121]

The Bible describes that woman as "wise".

We must first define what we mean by 'wise' when the Bible describes the woman as such. The word 'wise' never stands by itself; context is crucial in every situation, especially when interpreting words and events in the Bible. In this instance, the woman's speech was 'wise' in its strategic brilliance and rhetorical effectiveness for a particular, manipulative purpose. However, using her statement (2 Samuel 14:14) as a general theological principle for universal salvation is an 'out of context' usage. It divorces the verse from its deceptive origin, its specific narrative function—to bring Absalom home—and the fact that it's part of a human's persuasive argument, not a direct divine pronouncement on eternal destiny. I hope that helps. If you have more to say please provide 'contextual' support to your words.

 

[bob121]

I’m not actually sure that hell is eternal. There are passages that support eternal torment and others that support annihilation. I tend to lean more towards annihilation but I’m actually undecided on which is actually correct.

Why would Jesus' suffering be necessary if the end result for those who reject Christ's gift of salvation were mere annihilation? If sin's ultimate consequence is simply non-existence, it diminishes the infinite penalty that Christ bore. His agonizing death, separation from the Father, and suffering of God's wrath would seem disproportionate if all it achieved for the lost was oblivion. The depth and magnitude of Christ's suffering only make full sense as an atonement for a penalty that is eternal and conscious, saving believers from an infinitely greater fate than simply ceasing to be. Which passages tell of annihilation?