I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[timothyu]

if the wrench was "slipping" on purpose ?

Is there any other way for a wrench to act?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It was Peter

Then Peter was Satan, which is patently absurd

We have thousands of examples in the N.T. of both Satan and devils working within people.

That makes no person the same as

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

duplicate

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The confessions of the justifiably terrified, will account for nothing.

Unfortunately most believers do what they do to save their own hides, because they fear hell

A just God will give them exactly what they have been working for all of their lives...separation from Him.

Were these questions merely of the person you might have a point but they are not.

We all have an adversary that is not us involved in these matters. Believers who do not account for that adversary or his own in their equations operating in people, blinding them, deceiving them, will always end up with half truths.

It is typical demonic blindness to miss the facts that the adversary has blinded captives i.e. all unbelievers

But the real question at the heart of it is why. And scripture tells us why:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This scripture and Romans 11 in general sinks a lot of phony doctrines

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I do not believe any doctrine that accommodates disobedience to God.
That is precisely what your doctrine does.

Could you explain what you mean? How does what I said accommodate disobedience to God?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Both fine verses, indeed, but neither even hints at a payment. Please tell me precisely what Jesus paid for. Thank you.

He paid for our disobedience. 1 John 2:2 Jesus became our sin offering.
Rom 5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

is

The confessions of the justifiably terrified, will account for nothing.
A just God will give them exactly what they have been working for all of their lives...separation from Him.

this the same just God who said where sin abounds grace abounds even more? You are correct that a just God will give them what they have been working for all of their lives, and what they are looking for is God and his Love, that is why God created us to love and worship him and until we do we are incomplete, dead in our sins. Once people have an experience with the living God they will fall down and worship him, sadly that does not happen for most till their mortal body, which has weight them down with sin is removed. When they see Jesus face to face , they see him as he is and then they will bend the knee and have the heart of Jesus.
The very heart that said to those who drive the nails into him, beat him and humiliated him, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", each of us are no different than those who drove the nails, till we have an encounter with Jesus and see him as he is and bend or knee and confess Jesus is Lord. The very thing we were created for, and God is good at what he does and this will happen just as he planned.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Yep. The wages of sin is death. The fate of the sinner is never to have existed. The gift of God is eternal life. Damnationists believe that everyone has eternal life by default. The Bible never says any such thing.


And that's the long and the short of the thing. Damnationists believe that everyone lives forever, either in bliss or in torment. The Bible says no, eternal life is a gift from God, not a curse. Those who don't receive that gift, die. They're not hove into an eternal torture chamber . God, as Scripture says, really is merciful.


Yeah, when God says "I never knew you", that means you never actually existed. God's omniscient, y ou see. H knows everything. So if He says did never knew you, you were never there for Him to know. Gone. Annihilated. Obliterated. All trace of you, everything you did, everything you thought, everything that you loved, hated, helped, harmed, injured, healed, ad infinitum, not just gone, never was." Yeah, but even God can't...yes, He can. He's God, and it's His universe and He can do absolutely whatever likes. And He doesn't leave rubbish lying around. He's not some petty, pathetic human tyrant who has to torture thos who displease ant Writ largeHim to show the hoi poiioi what a heavy duty dude he is. God needn't prove anything to anyone. What displeases Him ceases to exist, The damnationist doctrine sees God as a human tyrant writ large. That betrays complete failure to understand the nature of God at all.

So yeah, when our Lord says that the Father can destroy the unsaved, that's what He meant whether it suits your nasty doctrine or not. And I'm sorry, appeals,to the Greek by people who don't know Greek sre simply ridiculous. You're simply beating a doctrinal tub, and trying to "translate" a language of which you're wholly ignorant to try and make the SCripture says what in fact it does not. To rop that off with an accusation that anyone who doesn't fall for your amateur translation "doesn't believe the Bible" is a combination of hubris and dishonesty that is truly sick making.

So anyway, thanks for reinforcing my thoughts on the sleazy nature of damnationist. I still live in the South, and there are still copious supplies of zealous nincompoops eager to bring a poor foreign heathen like myself to the True LIght of whatever boneheaded sect they favor. It's refreshng to have the opportunity from time to time to tell one of them what I actually think of their cobbled together soteriology, which is is generally the nearest thing to a theology that they have.

God said man is made in hid image, that is what gives our Spirit its never ending life.

 

[JulieB67]

could not our creator make us in such a way that if we truly see him as he is we would fall on our face and worship him

Then why is he so long suffering waiting for people to come to repentance? He's waiting for "them" to make a change. If what you were to believe were true, why is the world still going on if all he has to do is throw someone into the LOF?

All will come to the knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:3-6

He desires all men to be saved and acknowledge the truth That's the reason he is so long suffering. We know this to be true. But it doesn't mean they all will be.

Look up the Greek for Phil 2:10-11 the word translated confess in English is the Greek word Exomologeo its definition is : to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservation. This is the very confession all must make , its not forced but a willing confession,

When he returns, they will have no choice, they will at that point know who he is. It doesn't mean they'll stay that way. Some still will follow Satan in the end, once again. And have you never read the OT? We are to read it for our ensample as Paul states. Many many people saw God's own miracles, worshipped him and still fell away. Many will see Christ and again, still turn away.

We have to take the bible as a whole. We can't just pick and choose verses to back up a doctrine.
The verses you posted about the LOF being a refinery are nothing of the sort.

Malachi 3:2 "But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:"

Malachi 3:3 "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

He purifies in one's lifetime, not the LOF. He's the purifier, not the LOF at the end which is again, make for the devil and his angels.


Hosea 5:15 "I will go and return to my place till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early

There's nothing that suggests this is about the LOF in this verse.

Isa 48:10 Refined, purified in the furnace of misery

Isaiah 48:10 "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."

This is meant through someone's lifetime. It's about affliction, not the LOF. It also states "I have chosen you" These words would not be used if this meant all were saved in the LOF.

Zecg 13:9 I will put them into fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold, they will call on my name and I will answer them. I will say they are my people and they will say I am their God.
These verses and others show the Fathers heart, Why is it so hard to understand that God loves his whole creation and has a plan to

Why is it so hard not to go up one verse to get the context?


Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."


Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

He's talking about the remnant that's left-a third. Two parts are cut off and will die The third remains and he will refine and "try" them. That has nothing to do with the LOF. As you can see the first two parts are not refined at all, they die. So your reasoning with this verse does not work at all. And you conveniently left out the rest which was very important context. You started with "I will put them into fire.." When it actually states- " I will bring a third part through the fire.."

You changed God's word. It's hard to take you seriously after doing so.

Here's what will happen to the wicked-

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch.

Where's the refining?

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's what a fire does and it aligns with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28, destroy in the Greek is to destroy "fully"

And why would Christ tell certain churches they are in danger of having their names blotted out of the book of life if in the end, that wasn't the case? Why even warn them and better yet, why is there a book of life? What's the purpose of the book if all have life in the end?

I don't believe in ECT. I don't believe God is in the business of torturing someone for an eternity. He doesn't even want anyone to perish but instead we are to believe he wants to torture someone for an eternity? No. But I do believe Christ when he calls the LOF, the second death. I do believe the wicked will be burned up. I believe our Father is very long suffering not willing anyone to perish but that very verse proves some will perish. That's the very reason he is so long suffering. But there is a point of no return -the Second Death in the LOF. They will be simply wiped out of existence. When we take the bible as a whole it's always been life or death period.

 

[timothyu]

Then Peter was Satan, which is patently absurd

No. Peter was a satan, an adversary to the will of God.

 

[Hoping2]

Is there any other way for a wrench to act?

We can't fairly compare humans to inanimate objects.

 

[Hoping2]

Unfortunately most believers do what they do to save their own hides, because they fear hell

More precisely, perhaps, is fear God.

Were these questions merely of the person you might have a point but they are not.

I couldn't find what questions you refer to.
Can you be more concise ?

We all have an adversary that is not us involved in these matters.

LOL
Got a verse attesting to that ?

Believers who do not account for that adversary or his own in their equations operating in people, blinding them, deceiving them, will always end up with half truths.

Anyone believing half-truths, isn't really a believer.

It is typical demonic blindness to miss the facts that the adversary has blinded captives i.e. all unbelievers

Thank God for His merciful freeing of those in love with Him.

But the real question at the heart of it is why. And scripture tells us why:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
This scripture and Romans 11 in general sinks a lot of phony doctrines

As God has gracefully lifted that blindness from man, nobody needs to remain blinded anymore.
"By His stripes we were healed". (Isa 53:5)
The disobedient will have no excuse for their actions on the day of judgement.

 

[Hoping2]

Could you explain what you mean? How does what I said accommodate disobedience to God?

By providing as alleged parole from eternal destruction, after death, you just might as well say..."Do whatever you want now, as we won't be held responsible by God later" !
That is an accommodation for sin.
God is going to separate the wheat from the chaff.
He is going to separate the sheep from the goats.
He is going to separate the grain from the tares.
Your doctrine says He won't.

 

[Hoping2]

this the same just God who said where sin abounds grace abounds even more?

Yes, but that grace is being provide now, and not on the day of judgement wherein it will be too late.

You are correct that a just God will give them what they have been working for all of their lives, and what they are looking for is God and his Love,

That love is not being hidden.
Their actions indicate what they are really working for...satisfaction of fleshly lusts.

that is why God created us to love and worship him and until we do we are incomplete, dead in our sins.

Why do you opine that incompletion and death will suddenly be remedied after it is too late to change ?

Once people have an experience with the living God they will fall down and worship him, sadly that does not happen for most till their mortal body, which has weight them down with sin is removed. When they see Jesus face to face , they see him as he is and then they will bend the knee and have the heart of Jesus.

On the day of judgement, the sinners will realize it is too late for them to repent of sin.
Their eternal damnation is about to begin.

The very heart that said to those who drive the nails into him, beat him and humiliated him, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", each of us are no different than those who drove the nails, till we have an encounter with Jesus and see him as he is and bend or knee and confess Jesus is Lord. The very thing we were created for, and God is good at what he does and this will happen just as he planned.

There is no ignorance of God's will on earth.
Every sin is a choice: the result of enticement, lust, temptation and commission. (James 1:14-15)
Every man will get exactly what he deserves.
Those that feared God and did His will will be granted eternal life.
Those who hated God and did whatever it took to satisfy their lustful cravings, will be cast into the lake of fire.
Sheep and goats.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The confessions of the justifiably terrified, will account for nothing.
A just God will give them exactly what they have been working for all of their lives...separation from Him.

Hi Hoping 2. I’m curious … Could you please share with me, from the Philippians 2 text, “before” you support your view from other Scriptures, how you arrive at your conclusion that this confession is from the “justifiably terrified?” Every brother in Christ, who holds to the doctrine of ECT, maintains this bowing of the knee and confession of The Lordship of Jesus to be forced or performed in fear.

It is my opinion that each passage of Scripture should be able to stand on its own merit within the immediate context of which it was written, to establish the truth intended by its author under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. THEN, the rest of Scriptures are available from which to draw support for your interpretation.

”So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Philippians 2:1-18 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i | English Standard Version Rev

So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i

bible.com

My interpretation, based solely on the Philippians txt, to follow after your reply.

blessings …

 

[bob121]

It would have been much easier if you had just selected three or four of your main supporting Bible verses to back up your 'belief'. We could address each and every verse you've shown, but for the sake of time and everyone's patience, that would be difficult. So, I'll give you three responses from a Reformed view to counter your 'Universal salvation plan':

Romans 5:18 & 1 Corinthians 15:22 (The "Corporate All")
Universalist Claim: These verses parallel Adam's condemnation of "all" with Christ's justification of "all," suggesting universal salvation.

Reformed Counter-Argument: The "all" in these verses refers to two distinct groups: those "in Adam" (all humanity by nature, condemned) and those "in Christ" (the elect, justified by faith). Just as Adam's headship brought condemnation to his descendants, Christ's headship brings life to those united to Him. This highlights a universal scope within the elect, not salvation for every individual.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Common vs. Special Grace)
Universalist Claim: God is "the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe," implying universal salvation.

Reformed Counter-Argument: God is the "Savior of all people" in a general, providential sense (common grace), sustaining life and offering salvation broadly. He's "especially" the Savior of believers through His specific, saving grace. This distinguishes God's general care for all from His particular, effective salvation for the elect.

John 12:32 (Nature of "Drawing" and "Lifting Up")
Universalist Claim: Christ, "lifted up," will "draw ALL people" to Himself, meaning everyone will be saved.

Reformed Counter-Argument: "Lifted up" refers to Christ's crucifixion, which provides salvation. "Draw all people" means drawing people from all nations and ethnic groups (Jews and Gentiles) to Himself, not every single individual. This drawing is effectual only for the elect given to Him by the Father (John 6). It emphasizes the gospel's global reach, not universal salvation.

I hope that helps clarify. If you would like to know more about what the other verses mean, please ask or share your counter arguments.

It is good to ask questions and provide opinions, but we all must study and learn God's word correctly; handle his word with care.

Have a wonderful day/night,

God bless.

 

[bob121]

Hi Hoping 2. I’m curious … Could you please share with me, from the Philippians 2 text, “before” you support your view from other Scriptures, how you arrive at your conclusion that this confession is from the “justifiably terrified?” Every brother in Christ, who holds to the doctrine of ECT, maintains this bowing of the knee and confession of The Lordship of Jesus to be forced or performed in fear.

It is my opinion that each passage of Scripture should be able to stand on its own merit within the immediate context of which it was written, to establish the truth intended by its author under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. THEN, the rest of Scriptures are available from which to draw support for your interpretation.

”So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭13‬, ‭15‬-‭18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Philippians 2:1-18 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i | English Standard Version Rev

So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being i

bible.com

My interpretation, based solely on the Philippians txt, to follow after your reply.

blessings …

---

That's a fair challenge regarding Philippians 2:10-11. While the verse itself doesn't explicitly say "terror," the idea that the unsaved confess in justified terror isn't an assumption. It's a clear inference when you read Philippians 2 alongside other Scriptures.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man says otherwise. He was not in heaven.

~bella

Amen, nor was he permitted to cross over.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not yet he wasn't. If people remain in Hell forever then all of the verses that I provided in my OP are wrong. Right?

No, not at all. Jesus is the Savior of the world because He is the means thru which all can be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In what way is this "taken out of context"?

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Your quoting the words of a lying woman that Joab sent to lie to king David. Shes not a prophet speaking for God.