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Do the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant today?

Spiritual Jew

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The Ten Commandments was not written by Moses in the Book of the Law Deut 31:24-26 God wrote and God spoke the Ten Commandments and claimed them as His Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Exo 20:6 , His personal Testimony Exo 31:18 no more was written Deut 5:22 because its a standalone unit thus saith the Lord, placed inside the ark of the Covenant under Christ's mercy seat. Exo 40:20 Exo 25:16

James is quoting and contrasting only from the Ten Commandments James 2:11-12
Nope. The law includes the entire law of Moses and not just the Ten Commandments. That the examples James gave were from the Ten Commandments does not at all prove that he was only referring to the Ten Commandments there.

But, with that said, what I was refuting has nothing to do with that, but rather has to do with BobRyan saying "James said to delete one is to delete them all in James 2". That's not what it says. It says to break one of the commandments of the law makes someone guilty of breaking them all, so I corrected him on that.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Ga 3:13–14).​

The curse of the law (which is damnation for law-breakers) is still in effect today. It has always been in effect, even before the law was written. And it will always be in effect until sin and death are ended forever. The only escape for the curse of the law is faith in Christ Jesus.

In this OP and in the companion OP, you say things like, "But like any true covenant, it only works when both sides agree. God remains faithful, but His people must accept it, cherish it, and allow His Spirit to plant it deep within them." Concepts like this miss the mark in that God's translation of people from out of darkness into light, raising them from the dead to new life in Christ, and writing His laws on their heart is not a cooperative effort between man and God that progresses slowly over time. These things happen the moment Jesus enters a person's heart and makes them a new creation.

So much so is this the case with His laws being written in our hearts that their presence in our hearts differentiates between who has been born of God and who has not. For example, when John writes, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death" (1 Jn 3:14), he is saying that every person who has passed from death to life loves his brethren and if a person does not love the brethren, that person does not have eternal life. Like I said, this is just one example, but the same goes for all other laws that have been written on our hearts.
Could you please clarify, are you saying we do not have to cooperate with God on what He writes in our hearts, His law, that if we choose not to cooperate with Him, He is going to force us to keep them anyway? I think I might be misunderstanding what you are saying here.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Nope. The law includes the entire law of Moses and not just the Ten Commandments. That the examples James gave were from the Ten Commandments does not at all prove that he was only referring to the Ten Commandments there.
We need to realize our words are not Scripture. Especially when going against God's own Testimony,

What number do you see here, if all the laws are the same why is the only Biblical number we can find is Ten? Where do you see Moses in these Scriptures. You do know Moses is not God right? God is the Creator or everything, Moses is the creation, just like you and I

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His (God) covenant which He (God) commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He (God) wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Whose commandments are they- God's or Moses? Mind you this is the God of the Universe writing here

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Whose Testimony is it, God's or Moses?

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Whose work is it God's or Moses

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

No wonder why no more was added, it is God's personal Law and Testimony written by the God of the Universe that no man has authority to edit a jot or tittle, because God promised He would alter one word Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-30

This is a stand alone unit according to God- nothing more was added to the Ten Commandments - it is what is under His mercy seat that all man will be judged by regardless is they accept or not accept Rev 11:18-19 Mat 5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15

Its sad when man thinks they know better than He and even refuse Him to define His own law which He did both personally spoken and written. We truly have no excuses when He comes as there was not much more God could have done to write His will Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 and Testimony Exo 31:18 for mankind. Did Jesus ever teach we do not need to keep? No once, He kept them and told us not to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:17-30 keeping our laws/traditions in replace of God's law quoting from the Ten Commandments, not calling it the law of Moses, but the commandment of God, He said that is the wrong path Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

But, with that said, what I was refuting has nothing to do with that, but rather has to do with BobRyan saying "James said to delete one is to delete them all in James 2". That's not what it says. It says to break one of the commandments of the law makes someone guilty of breaking them all, so I corrected him on that.
Its the same thing delete (remove like the Sabbath commandment) or break it, we break one we break them all, if its removed it means we are breaking it, James is only quoting and contrasting what "He said" Exo 20:1 from the Ten Commandments found in Exo 20:1-17
 
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Spiritual Jew

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We need to realize our words are not Scripture. Especially when going against God's own Testimony,

What number do you see here, if all the laws are the same why is the only Biblical number we can find is Ten? Where do you see Moses in these Scriptures. You do know Moses is not God right? God is the Creator or everything, Moses is the creation, just like you and I

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His (God) covenant which He (God) commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He (God) wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Whose commandments are they- God's or Moses? Mind you this is the God of the Universe writing here

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Whose Testimony is it, God's or Moses?

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Whose work is it God's or Moses

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

No wonder why no more was added, it is God's personal Law and Testimony written by the God of the Universe that no man has authority to edit a jot or tittle, because God promised He would alter one word Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-30

This is a stand alone unit according to God- nothing more was added to the Ten Commandments - it is what is under His mercy seat that all man will be judged by regardless is they accept or not accept Rev 11:18-19 Mat 5:19-30 James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15
All of the commandments of the law of Moses come from God rather than Moses. You are making a ridiculous argument here.

Its sad when man thinks they know better than He and even refuse Him to define His own law which He did both personally spoken and written.
Yes, so why do you do that?

Its the same thing delete (remove like the Sabbath commandment) or break it, we break them all again James is only quoting and contrasting what "He said" from the Ten Commandments found in Exo 20:1-17
What are you talking about? No, it is not the same thing. James is only talking about the fact that if you break even one commandment of the law then you are guilty of breaking them all. That means you can't be saved by keeping the law because that would require being sinless. What James said has nothing to do with deleting/removing the Sabbath commandment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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All of the commandments of the law of Moses come from God rather than Moses. You are making a ridiculous argument here.
You missed the point completely. All laws come from God, Moses wrote the law of Moses, God wrote the Ten Commandments i.e. the Commandments of God and separated them by design from all other laws.
What are you talking about? No, it is not the same thing. James is only talking about the fact that if you break even one commandment of the law then you are guilty of breaking them all. That means you can't be saved by keeping the law because that would require being sinless. What James said has nothing to do with deleting/removing the Sabbath commandment.
How can one keep a commandment that has been deleted?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You missed the point completely. All laws come from God, Moses wrote the law of Moses, God wrote the Ten Commandments i.e. the Commandments of God and separated them by design from all other laws.
Your point is...pointless. The Ten Commandments were given to Moses and are part of the law of Moses.

How can one keep a commandment that has been deleted?
Talk about missing the point. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I corrected him about what James 2:10 says and it says nothing about deleting a commandment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Your point is...pointless. The Ten Commandments were given to Moses and are part of the law of Moses.
The Ten Commandments started at Creation according to God Exo 20:11 actually they started in heaven because where there is no law, there is no sin Rom 4:15. The devil sinned in heaven 1 John 3:8 because God's law started in heaven as we see Heb 8:1-5 Rev 11:19. No government can survive on lawlessness and God is not just our Savior, He is our King and Kings have laws. He wrote His law, He spoke it, He called it My commandments, My Testimony, Jesus who is God became flesh told us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 not a jot or tittle can be removed, because who could seriously improve upon and re-write what our perfect Lord and Savior wrote with His own finger or the Spirit of Truth. Its sad man thinks they can improve on God's own personal Testimony.

The Ten Commandments was codified at Mt Sinai spoken to all of Israel, which represents God's Church and the New Covenant is also given to Israel and comes with God laws now written in the heart Heb 8:10. There is no Jew or Gentile in God's New Covenant Promise, just those with faith are grafted Gal 3:26-29. Why its still sin to break God's law even in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 Do we profess faith of Jesus by listening and following His teachings or laying them aside as to say they are for other people. Mat 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14
Talk about missing the point. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I corrected him about what James 2:10 says and it says nothing about deleting a commandment.
How does one keep Gods commandments if they lay it aside (delete) as to say, this one is not for me, essentially making themselves their own god, following their own laws.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Could you please clarify, are you saying we do not have to cooperate with God on what He writes in our hearts, His law, that if we choose not to cooperate with Him, He is going to force us to keep them anyway? I think I might be misunderstanding what you are saying here.
The key to understanding is something Jesus said... "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (Jn 6:63)
 
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RandyPNW

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How often we forget what Jesus truly taught, and how easily we fall into the ideas of men rather than holding fast to God’s Word.
All of the ideas I expressed come from the Scriptures. I did not originate them. I qote the Scriptures in support of my ideas.
The claim that the Ten Commandments are no longer needed under the New Covenant is simply not true.
The Apostle Paul explicitly taught that nobody is anymore under the Law of Moses. And the 10 Commandments were part of the Law of Moses.

Gal 2.19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."

This does not mean that the same laws, under a New Covenant, are not kept. We are still required to avoid murder, lust, and covetousness. But these are no longer underwritten by Moses and his Law. They are no longer part of what the book of Hebrews identified as the "Old Covenant."
When Jesus was asked what to do to gain eternal life, He answered clearly: “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17). He then listed several of the Ten Commandments—showing that they still apply, and are not optional.
As I said previously, what Jesus said during his earthly ministry was said primarily to the nation Israel and was under the Old Covenant. We should understand, now that we are not under the Old Covenant, but under a New Covenant, that we follow Jesus, who never was subject to the Law of Moses and that Covenant.

That was a Covenant of obedience that in Israel fell short--Jesus never fell short. And that was a Covenant of redemption--Jesus never required redemption. That was a covenant of mercy. Jesus was siness and required no mercy from God.

You teach Jesus' statements in the Gospel as if he himself was under the Law of Moses. He lived in that era of Law, in that era of Covenant. But he was not himself subject to it, and we should understand his new Law in that sense.

It is free of all the specifics of the Old Covenant requirements. Its Moral Imperatives--that Law is still in effect, just as it was before the Law of Moses was given. We are to live in the image of God, just as Man was created to live in the beginning. This is not antinomianism--this is Generic Law, plain and simple.

But it is *not* Moses' Law. It is not the Old Covenant. And unless we understand this properly, it is not the 10 Commandments, because those 10 Commandments were attached to the entire Law, to the entire Old Covenant. To say we must keep the 10 Commandments is to say we need to keep all 613 or so requirements.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Some say that “Christ’s commandments” are different from the Ten Commandments, or that we no longer follow God’s law but a new one made only of love. But Jesus never said that. He taught that love is the foundation of the Law—not a replacement. He said, “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:40). These two—the love of God and love of neighbor—summarize the Ten Commandments. They do not erase them.
Yes, Jesus indicated that love in the heart is at the core of the Law. And he summarized the Law as contributing to a necessary relationship with God and to a proper relationship with society. It is "love for God and love for one another."

But he did not say that the particular structure of the OT Law would be fulfilled in Israel apart from his work on the cross, which was different from how Israel operated under the Law as sinners.

Jesus alone fulfilled the Law as a perfect human being. Therefore, we fulfill the Law not by meeting the requirements of the Law of Moses, which testifies to our sin and inadequacy. Rather, we fulfill the Law by abiding in Jesus who alone fulfilled the Law by his own sinless life and record.

We cannot even abide in him perfectly, anymore than we can abide in the Law perfectly. But his own unique system does not require that we live perfectly in order to be justified, in contrast to the Law which did require perfection to obtain Eternal Life. Under the Law Israel obtained mercy, but not Eternal Life. The Law fell short of providing Israel with an atonement that was lasting and final.
In fact, Jesus magnified the commandments. Jesus never said "keep all 613 laws."
See Matt 5.17-19 above. Clearly, you are wrong.

Jesus reqired of Israel obedience to the Old Covenant as long as that system of Law remained in effect. It was necessary for Israel to keep that Law in order to remain in close relationship with God until Jesus himself completed the requirements necessary for eternal relationship with God.
In the Sermon on the Mount, He magnified the Ten Commandments, focusing on moral purity of the heart—not ritual or ceremonial laws.
Matt 5.17-19 required the *entire Law* of Israel, with all of its ceremonial requirements, as well. Temple law, priestly law, and sacrificial law were intimately linked with moral law, including the 10 Commandments. The entire thing was not to be marginalized or deemphasized according to Jesus.
He taught that murder begins with anger, adultery with lust, and that we must love even our enemies. He showed that true obedience must come from the heart. This is how He fulfilled the words of Isaiah: “He will exalt the law and make it honorable.” (Isaiah 42:21).

Jesus did not ask us to follow a different law—He came to fulfill the very one given by God. Not a single word of His ever removed the need to obey God’s commands. Rather, He said: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill... till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

The idea that obedience is only about witnessing after we are saved is not what Jesus taught.
Jesus did indeed give the Great Commission. You are wrong to claim he didn't give that requirement of his Apostles. Much of the NT letters are exhortations to live as good witnesses of Christian righteousness. How wrong can you be in saying these commandments were not given to Christians?
He said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom... but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21). And again, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

Even the New Covenant does not remove the commandments. It writes them on our hearts: “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts.” (Jeremiah 31:33). It is still the same law, now engraved within, lived out by love and obedience.
The suggestion that the Law of Moses is written on the heart does not explain how this was done. The laws of God, no matter the particular covenant in effect, are always to be written on the heart!

But the specific prophecy given is explicitly explained as accomplished only by a New Covenant--one that did not require the ark, and one that was different from the Law given at Sinai. Jer 31 admits this.

The Law, with its failures, was inferred to be incapable of accomplishing this final Israeli salvation. A completely revised, new covenant was required.

Jer 31.23 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

So no, Jesus did not teach that the commandments ended. He upheld them, lived them, and told us to follow them if we want to live. The notion that “Christ’s law” is something new and separate is a man-made idea. Jesus’ own words tell us plainly: if we love Him, we will keep the same commandments He gave from the beginning—because love fulfills the law, not replaces it.
No, the Christian commandments are "new" commandments. They do represent the morality of the Old Commandments, but under a new jurisdiction, under Jesus alone, disposing of the old pre-Christian structure.

The ideal of being God-like is the same as it was in Eden. But it completely omits Moses, except as a testimony to Christ's new and final system, which is not based on human perfection.

It is based on Christ's perfection alone. The Law magnificed human imperfection as a legal impediment to our obtaining Eternal Life. We must now live by the Law of Christ, which calls for us to abide in him, apart from the requirements of Moses.

The generic laws of God, involved in emulating His holiness, remain in effect. But is now administered under a completely new covenant, the commandments of Jesus being the replacement for the system of Law and its commandments.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The key to understanding is something Jesus said... "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." (Jn 6:63)
But do we have to cooperate with the Spirit? Or does the Spirit force Himself on us?

I am pretty sure we have to invite Him in and than cooperate with what He writes in our hearts through our love and faith

Heb 3: 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,

Why receiving the Spirit is conditional and why there is an if here

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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But do we have to cooperate with the Spirit? Or does the Spirit force Himself on us?
Those are not our two options. When you are destitute and someone offers you a dollar as a gift, all you have to do is receive it. No cooperation is required and it is not forced upon you.
 
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fhansen

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Those are not our two options. When you are destitute and someone offers you a dollar as a gift, all you have to do is receive it. No cooperation is required and it is not forced upon you.
In response to the Spirit we may or may not recognize our destitution. And either way we can still refuse the gift.
 
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fhansen

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Many today question whether the Ten Commandments still apply under the new covenant. Some believe they were temporary, pointing to writings that describe the law as a ministry that brought death and condemnation. But when we look deeper into the words of Jesus and the prophets, we find a different truth—one filled with life, purpose, and enduring glory.

The prophet Jeremiah gave a clear promise from God:
“I will make a new covenant… I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

This promise was not about removing the law but placing it where it was always meant to be—inside the heart. The commandments, once written on stone, would now be written in living hearts through the Spirit of God. But like any true covenant, it only works when both sides agree. God remains faithful, but His people must accept it, cherish it, and allow His Spirit to plant it deep within them.

Jesus never set the commandments aside. He honored the law and taught its fullness. When He healed on the Sabbath or defended His disciples for picking grain, He wasn’t breaking the law—He was showing its true purpose. He said, “It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:12) The Sabbath was made for man—not man for the Sabbath. Jesus reminded the people that the heart of the law is love, mercy, and goodness, not cold rituals.

He also taught that not even the smallest part of the law would pass away until all is fulfilled:
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill… till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law.” (Matthew 5:17–18) Jesus taught from the law and lived by it. He deepened its meaning. He showed that anger leads to murder, and lust is already adultery in the heart. His teachings didn’t cancel the law—they raised it to its true spiritual level.

So why does it seem today that God's law is not written in the hearts of many? The answer lies in the covenant relationship. If one party refuses the covenant, it cannot be fulfilled. The Spirit cannot write in a heart that is closed. Many call Jesus Lord but do not walk in His ways. As He said, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)

The commandments remain—not as a list of rules, but as a path to life. The law of God is perfect, converting the soul. The problem was never with the law, but with the hearts of people. The old covenant failed because the people broke it, not because the law was faulty.

The new covenant is not the removal of God’s law but its renewal—inside us. The Spirit does not lead us away from the commandments but gives us the power to live them. Jesus said the Spirit will guide us into all truth. The law and the Spirit are not enemies—they work together when the heart is willing. In the end, the new covenant fulfills the old by making it alive. The law that once condemned now becomes a light. But for this to happen, the covenant must be embraced, and the heart must be softened. God's law in the heart is a sign of His people. It is how we love Him and love our neighbor.

The commandments are not heavy when written in love. They are eternal because they reflect the character of God Himself. They are still standing, still holy, and still waiting for hearts that will receive them—not in stone, but in spirit and truth.

A complement to this post can be found below;
This was very well stated-and is consistent with the teachings of ancient Christianity in the east and the west. Later theologies would introduce a question as to whether or not the the commandments must be obeyed.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Those are not our two options. When you are destitute and someone offers you a dollar as a gift, all you have to do is receive it. No cooperation is required and it is not forced upon you.
I prefer to go by what the Scripture says. Its seems pretty clear to me. Its why at the end of time many believers will say Lord Lord, but Christ will say He will not know them, not because He doesn't know who they are but because they never invited Him in and allowed Him to rule in our life (His will). Salvation is a gift, but not everyone accepts this gift, many prefer to stay in darkness (sin) and never come to the light or truth of God's Word John 3:19-21
 
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fhansen

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Please read Romans 5:18-10:4
There, Paul makes clear that one cannot be both under the law of Christ, and the law of the former (old) covenant.
Under the new covenant we still can't expect to enter heaven if we persist unrepentent in, say, murder, adultery, theft etc. even though we're not under the law. And this is why Rom 2:13, for example, is consistent with the gospel:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

The new covenant is not a reprieve from man's oblligation to be righteous, but is the authentic means to accomplishing that very thing, the right way: under grace, by the Spirit, in union with God as we become 'His people' (Jer 31:33). The old covenant was not revoked, but made obsolete by a new and better convenant that could actually accomplish in us what the old could not.

The major difference is that, in the former we're on our own while in the latter were with God, now reconciled with Him and in a state of realtionship where the creature is subjugated to the Creator as is meant to be, as justice, itself, calls for, with love as the bonding agent between the two. The gospel is first of all about being shown God's love for us, and we responding, we reciprocating, with love in return. And that love, by its nature and to the extent that we're perfected in it, obeys God and fulfills the law, preventing us from breaking the commandments for one thing.

Faith engrafts us into the Vine while love is the life-giving flow that comes only from that Vine, from and through Him. That's how He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts (Jer 31:33).
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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But do we have to cooperate with the Spirit? Or does the Spirit force Himself on us?
Already answered above.
I am pretty sure we have to invite Him in
It appears we agree on that part.
and than cooperate with what He writes in our hearts through our love and faith

Heb 3: 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
These verses do not speak to post-salvation good works or obedience. They speak to pre-salvation faithlessness that leads people into trusting themselves instead of placing all their hope in Christ.
Why receiving the Spirit is conditional and why there is an if here

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
"Love" is present tense and "keep" is future tense in John 14:15. Both are active voice. NASB translates it best... "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." There is no gap (or cooperation) needed to complete the transaction. The person who loves Him keeps His commandments.

I know what you're making of this seems right to you. But the perfection that God requires is not found in deeds of the flesh. It is only found in the new life created when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart. This is easiest to see in Ephesians 4:24 where the new man is described as, "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness". No amount of conforming the flesh to the demands of Scripture will accomplish what only God can do -- use His power of creation to create holy and righteous new creatures.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Jesus reveals in this passage many insightful things, including the fact that He himself will come to live in our hearts and will live in us forever.
1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
This is another verse that indicates that "he who keeps" His commanments is "he who" abides in Him and is "he who" Jesus lives in. In effect, it is speaking of the new man, "which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). It cannot be speaking of keeping His commandments in the flesh. Otherwise, not one single person other than Christ would ever fulfill the requrement.
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Yes, this "obey" means to "harken unto" and points to those who have yielded to God's instruction to admit their inadequacies, rest from their works, and place all their hope in Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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These verses do not speak to post-salvation good works or obedience. They speak to pre-salvation faithlessness that leads people into trusting themselves instead of placing all their hope in Christ.
I disagree, any professed Christian can harden their heart to God's Truth. If we have salvation we would not be separated from God. That's a promise He made 1 Thes 4:16-17 so anyone can fall away now and not hear His voice and harden their hearts in rebellion, just like those before us who were tested in the wilderness Heb 3:7-8
"Love" is present tense and "keep" is future tense in John 14:15. Both are active voice. NASB translates it best... "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." There is no gap (or cooperation) needed to complete the transaction. The person who loves Him keeps His commandments.
Its all one sentence and one thought and If we love Him, you will keep (present) which is why its conditional (If) on receiving the Holy Spirit, we have to have a willing and open heart to obey God's commandments (His version, not mans) by our great love of Jesus Christ and by doing so, God gives us the Holy Spirit which enables us to obey Him. He will not force us to obey Him, but will help us obey Him if we truly willing to surrender to His will and good pleasure.


I know what you're making of this seems right to you. But the perfection that God requires is not found in deeds of the flesh. It is only found in the new life created when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart. This is easiest to see in Ephesians 4:24 where the new man is described as, "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness". No amount of conforming the flesh to the demands of Scripture will accomplish what only God can do -- use His power of creation to create holy and righteous new creatures.
Perfect is through Christ and if we have Christ the deeds of the flesh will also be perfect just as He is perfect.
This is another verse that indicates that "he who keeps" His commanments is "he who" abides in Him and is "he who" Jesus lives in. In effect, it is speaking of the new man, "which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). It cannot be speaking of keeping His commandments in the flesh. Otherwise, not one single person other than Christ would ever fulfill the requrement.
I disagree. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 what you are saying is that the devil is bigger than our God to keep us in sin than Jesus is to keep us from sin. I beleive through our faith love and cooperation in Jesus Christ we can overcome sin. Its a promise of the Bible Rev 22:14 Rev 22:14 and the Book of Revelation speaks of this at least 7 times.

If we are abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments John 15:10 we are also following in His example 1 John 2:6

We can't do this on our own, but though Christ all things are possible including obeying His law through our faith and love and His power today. Its the other spirit who wants to convince us we can obey tomorrow, the Holy Spirit says if you hear His voice TODAY.
Yes, this "obey" means to "harken unto" and points to those who have yielded to God's instruction to admit their inadequacies, rest from their works, and place all their hope in Christ.
Would someone doing so be obeying Him or disobeying Him? The Holy Spirit is not going to reside in an individual who has harden their heart from hearing His voice calling them out of their sin and rebellion. I beleive the verse means exactly what it states, why we are told Pro 3:5-6 I am a big believer in allowing the Bible to interpret itself.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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This was very well stated-and is consistent with the teachings of ancient Christianity in the east and the west. Later theologies would introduce a question as to whether or not the the commandments must be obeyed.
I actually thought of you when I crafted my response to the OP. His POV on a cooperative relationship sounded a lot like our discussions in the past. I even looked at his profile to see if he identified as Catholic, but it wasn't there. Anyway, I'm glad to see you again.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I disagree, any professed Christian can harden their heart to God's Truth. If we have salvation we would not be separated from God. That's a promise He made 1 Thes 4:16-17 so anyone can fall away now and not hear His voice and harden their hearts in rebellion, just like those before us who were tested in the wilderness Heb 3:7-8

Its all one sentence and one thought and If we love Him, you will keep (present) which is why its conditional (If) on receiving the Holy Spirit, we have to have a willing and open heart to obey God's commandments (His version, not mans) by our great love of Jesus Christ and by doing so, God gives us the Holy Spirit which enables us to obey Him. He will not force us to obey Him, but will help us obey Him if we truly willing to surrender to His will and good pleasure.

Perfect is through Christ and if we have Christ the deeds of the flesh will also be perfect just as He is perfect.

I disagree. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 what you are saying is that the devil is bigger than our God to keep us in sin than Jesus is to keep us from sin. I beleive through our faith love and cooperation in Jesus Christ we can overcome sin. Its a promise of the Bible Rev 22:14 Rev 22:14 and the Book of Revelation speaks of this at least 7 times.

If we are abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments John 15:10 we are also following in His example 1 John 2:6

We can't do this on our own, but though Christ all things are possible including obeying His law through His power today.

Would someone doing so be obeying Him or disobeying Him? The Holy Spirit is not going to reside in an individual who has harden their heart from hearing His voice calling them out of their sin and rebellion. I beleive the verse means exactly what it states, why we are told Pro 3:5-6 I am a big believer in allowing the Bible to interpret itself.
Ok, interpret this without giving wiggle room for sin...

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:8–9)​
 
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