The Crucifixion Not Friday

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Saber Truth Tiger (His answer on the BHSE Site)
"According to the Hebrew Scriptures (Masoretic Text), Nisan 15 was never designated as a Sabbath."

Hopefully those on this site will read your answer on the Biblical Hermeneutics site.

Here are comments Revelation Lad and I made with each other on "Can Nisan 15 be referred to as a Sabbath?" on BHSE.

Discussion between Saber Truth Tiger and Revelation Lad | chat.stackexchange.com

chat.stackexchange.com

 

[Revelation Lad]

AI Overview SABBATA

Yes, "SABBATA" in the LXX (Septuagint) is considered a transliteration, meaning it is a direct, phonetic representation of the Hebrew word "Shabbat" into Greek, essentially just writing the Hebrew word using Greek letters.

Explanation:

• Transliteration vs. Translation:

While a translation would attempt to convey the meaning of a word in the target language, a transliteration simply tries to represent the sounds of the original word as closely as possible using the letters of the new language.

• Hebrew "Shabbat" to Greek "Sabbata":

By writing "SABBATA" in Greek, the translators of the LXX were essentially trying to capture the sound of the Hebrew "Shabbat" without attempting to find a fully equivalent Greek word with the same meaning.

AI Overview

"SABBATA" is considered a Greek plural because it is the plural form of the Greek word "SABBATON" which means "Sabbath," and in the context of the New Testament, it often refers to multiple Sabbath days, hence the plural usage; essentially, "SABBATA" means "Sabbaths.".

Key points:

• Origin: The word "SABBATON" itself comes from the Hebrew word "Shabbat" which means "rest."
• Pluralization: In Greek, adding an "A" at the end often signifies a plural form.
• • Interpretation: While "SABBATON" can technically be used in the singular, "SABBATA" is usually interpreted as referring to multiple Sabbaths.

AI Overview
"SABBATA" in the LXX is considered a plural form, even though it is often used to refer to a single Sabbath day; this is because it is derived from the Hebrew "shabbat" which is plural in form, and the Greek translation adopted this usage, sometimes using the singular "sabbaton" as well depending on context.


Key points about "SABBATA":

• Technically plural: The Greek word "sabbata" is grammatically plural.
  
  
  
• Used for single Sabbath: Despite being plural, "sabbata" is frequently used to refer to a single Sabbath day in the LXX.
  
  
  
• Aramaic influence: This usage might be influenced by the Aramaic "shabbatā" which is a singular form but appears as a plural in Greek.

If you transliterate the Hebrew to Greek as Shabat, you have Shabat.

Transliteration is the process of bringing a word into a language which previously did not exist. Obviously, it the word was already present, the existing word would be used. Therefore, Shabata is the word which was brought into the Greek language. This is even more obvious since Shabat does not exist in the Greek language.

Furthermore, the process you describe is preposterous. You want Shabata to a grammatical plural, a word which can be either singular or plural, but you claim Shabat, which was singular, was made plural by adding "a" (completely disregarding Greek declension), in order to bring a word into the Greek language which could be a "grammatical plural." Therefore they had to be ignorant of the need to have a word which was just singular.

After translating the Pentateuch (which clearly has Sabbath as singular) using only "grammatical plurals" they decided the rest of the Hebrew Bible should have a true singular and came up with Shabaton.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

If you notice, I link a lot to the Google AI search and repost things I have found out about Greek there. I don't know a lot about Greek. I don't even know a moderate amount of Greek or a little about Greek so I cannot speak as an authority on the subject. I don't even know if YOU know about Greek. Since I know little about the Greek, I must move on to the newest subject, and that is "Can plural first of the Sabbaths be referred to as the first day of the week in the New Testament? I will await your answer.

 

[Revelation Lad]

If you notice, I link a lot to the Google AI search and repost things I have found out about Greek there. I don't know a lot about Greek. I don't even know a moderate amount of Greek or a little about Greek so I cannot speak as an authority on the subject. I don't even know if YOU know about Greek. Since I know little about the Greek, I must move on to the newest subject, and that is "Can plural first of the Sabbaths be referred to as the first day of the week in the New Testament? I will await your answer.

Saber Truth Tiger:
Since I know little about the Greek, I must move on to the newest subject, and that is "Can plural first of the Sabbaths be referred to as the first day of the week in the New Testament? I will await your answer.

Response:
Sorry. It doesn't work like that. Your ignorance doesn't give you the right to change the subject. Especially when answering essentially settles the matter.

BTW you don't need to know much Greek to know Shabata is not sound like Shabat.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Saber Truth Tiger:
Since I know little about the Greek, I must move on to the newest subject, and that is "Can plural first of the Sabbaths be referred to as the first day of the week in the New Testament? I will await your answer.

Response:
Sorry. It doesn't work like that. Your ignorance doesn't give you the right to change the subject. Especially when answering essentially settles the matter.

Sorry, you don't make the rules. I cannot argue the merits of the Greek, so I am moving on to a different subject. This one we were on was fruitless and dragging on endlessly. I have the right to change the subject if I am unable to debate the merits of the Greek on a certain topic. You don't get to set the rules on when one can quit and can't quit. When you threw in the towel on Nisan 15 I honored your action. I am forced to rely on the claims of others, so I don't like that.

BTW you don't need to know much Greek to know Shabata is not sound like Shabat.

I know that. I addressed that already and you blew right past it. The subject is closed.

 

[Revelation Lad]

Sorry, you don't make the rules. I cannot argue the merits of the Greek, so I am moving on to a different subject. This one we were on was fruitless and dragging on endlessly. I have the right to change the subject if I am unable to debate the merits of the Greek on a certain topic. You don't get to set the rules on when one can quit and can't quit. When you threw in the towel on Nisan 15 I honored your action. I am forced to rely on the claims of others, so I don't like that.

I know that. I addressed that already and you blew right past it. The subject is closed.

"The subject is closed." AKA, "I refuse to answer directly because it will show what I've been saying is wrong."

Another way to avoid giving a straight answer. I'm amazed at the plethora of ways you try to avoid answering.

This is what happened on BHSE. When you recognize an honest answer will prove you are wrong, out comes a new way to avoid a straight answer.

Shabat was transliterated as Shabata because it sounds like Sabbath! It was done to make it plural! It was transliterated as a grammatical plural! After the Pentateuch was finished they realized they needed a true singular and came up with Sabbaton!

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I am confused here. You two are arguing over whether Matthew 12:1-2's usage of Sabbath is an idiom, but what is the idiom that is being argued over? I don't think the word "Sabbath" used there is an idiom; it means Sabbath. Looking at the various translations of Matthew 12:1 and Matthew 12:2 on biblegateway, they are nearly unanimous in translating the word as Sabbath, and the ones that do not render it into an equivalent word, e.g. "day of rest".

Is the "idiom" being debated over the simple issue of the Sabbath being plural despite it seeming to be only a single Sabbath?

It's been almost five months since I last posted here, but I believe you are correct. It is not an idiom. It's a feature of the Greek language, as per the BDAG lexicon and Robert Mounce, one of the greatest Greek New Testament scholars in the world. They have studied Greek for many years, and they have a consensus that the plural Sabbaths can be translated into the singular in English. Who am I to disagree?

 

[BobRyan]

I am confused here. You two are arguing over whether Matthew 12:1-2's usage of Sabbath is an idiom, but what is the idiom that is being argued over? I don't think the word "Sabbath" used there is an idiom; it means Sabbath. Looking at the various translations of Matthew 12:1 and Matthew 12:2 on biblegateway, they are nearly unanimous in translating the word as Sabbath, and the ones that do not render it into an equivalent word, e.g. "day of rest".

Is the "idiom" being debated over the simple issue of the Sabbath being plural despite it seeming to be only a single Sabbath?

IN EVERY SINGLE instance of the term "Sabbath" used as a reference to a weekly day of worship in the NT - it is the 7th day of the week.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

IN EVERY SINGLE instance of the term "Sabbath" used as a reference to a weekly day of worship in the NT - it is the 7th day of the week.

Yes, thank you for your input Bob. I agree, I have posted on this in great detail.

 

[JSRG]

IN EVERY SINGLE instance of the term "Sabbath" used as a reference to a weekly day of worship in the NT - it is the 7th day of the week.

I don't understand what this has to do with my post (which was from 9 months ago, and also 9 pages ago, making me even more confused as to why you felt the need to respond to it).

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I don't understand what this has to do with my post (which was from 9 months ago, and also 9 pages ago, making me even more confused as to why you felt the need to respond to it).

My bad. I think I am to blame, not BobRyan. I responded to your old post. I haven't been online here that much for months, and I was scrolling through some of the older posts when I saw your comments. It was a rather late comment, but I wanted an answer recorded on this thread because your post deserved an answer that I did not originally address.

 

[JSRG]

My bad. I think I am to blame, not BobRyan. I responded to your old post. I haven't been online here that much for months, and I was scrolling through some of the older posts when I saw your comments. It was a rather late comment, but I wanted an answer recorded on this thread because your post deserved an answer that I did not originally address.

I don't have a problem with your reply. I'll admit a little surprise of responding to a post so long ago so much earlier in the topic, but you were responding to what I said and my message was originally posted towards you. You were just offering an update in your response to my much earlier post.

While I was perplexed by BobRyan responding to my post given its age, what I was far more perplexed about is what his post had to do with mine. Even if my post had been from one hour beforehand, his really had little to do with what I was saying.

 

[The Liturgist]

IN EVERY SINGLE instance of the term "Sabbath" used as a reference to a weekly day of worship in the NT - it is the 7th day of the week.

This point is one you probably don’t want to make since it rather neatly invalidates the claim made by other Adventists that St. Paul, in instructing us not to let others judge us on the observance of Sabbaths, festivals etc in Colossians 2:16, was referring to Sabbaths other than to the seventh day of the Jewish week.

But whether read one way or the other, the problem is that the New Testament does not support the strict following of the Sabbath required by some denominations such as the SDA, Seventh Day Baptists et cetera.

Indeed, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, and the Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglicans and Lutherans observe the Sabbath not only by having worshipping services on this day throughout the year, particularly in the Orthodox churches and the Assyrian church, but also, by virtue of our observance of the Great Sabbath, that being the day on which God rested following having remade humanity in His image on the Cross, just as He had rested following His creation in Genesis 1, the primary text that supports our practice of regarding the Sabbath as a restful day of worship for our benefit, but one which the Christian is free to use, following the examples of Christ our True God, in a manner that differs from the strict rules of Judaism, and furthermore, which in no respects precludes worshipping on other days, chiefly on the Lord’s Day, in memory of His glorious resurrection, which becomes more important, both devotionally and eschatologically, for the universe began on this day, and the life of the World to Come is also represented on this day, for it was on this day that Christ our True God rose from the dead.

Thus, on the sixth day, we are made in the image of God, on the Cross, on the seventh day, God rests and we commemorate His victory, and on the first and eighth day, we celebrate the Light, of the Resurrection, of Christ the Son and Word of God risen in the East like the Sun, and the Light of the Life of the World to Come, the Uncreated Light of Tabor, the day that the Lord hath made, for us to rejoice and be glad in, for He has conquered death, now and ever and unto the ages of all ages.

It is the day for the Eucharist, in which we partake of the very body and blood of Christ our True God, as believed in by traditional Anglo Catholics such as my friend @Jipsah , by traditional Lutherans such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian and by my Catholic friends @chevyontheriver and @Xeno.of.athens and by my fellow Orthodox friends @prodromos and @jas3 to name just a few, as well as by other traditional liturgical Christians, who on this issue as well as on the Sabbath are promoting correct liturgical and devotional worship practices which are fully consistent with all commandments, with the Nicene Creed, and with the Holy Tradition we are required by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to adhere to, which provides us with the Creed and the New Testament itself, and the documents of which concerning the history of the early church are extremely reliable compared to alternative histories presented by some people who disagree with Roman Catholicism apparently for the sake of disagreeing with it based on extreme anti-Roman Catholic reactionism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus was crucified on Friday. No ancient Church has ever entertained any alternative.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus was crucified on Friday. No ancient Church has ever entertained any alternative.

Indeed, it’s not a fact which could be considered controversial in the mainstream of Christianity; the belief that Christ our True God was crucified on Friday, rested on Saturday and rose on Sunday is scriptural and accepted by all ancient churches, as you correctly point out.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

This point is one you probably don’t want to make since it rather neatly invalidates the claim made by other Adventists that St. Paul, in instructing us not to let others judge us on the observance of Sabbaths, festivals etc in Colossians 2:16, was referring to Sabbaths other than to the seventh day of the Jewish week.

There was another Sabbath other than the weekly Sabbath. And the singular for Sabbath is sometimes spelled with the plural spelling—at least according to the BDAG and other Greek New Testament scholars like Robert Mounce. I can't argue for it due to my lack of Greek knowledge, but I do know there are Greek scholars who claim that the plural spelling does not always mean a plural meaning. But wherever the expression "the Sabbath" occurs in the Christian Bible, it refers to the weekly Sabbath. At least, no one can prove otherwise.

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, I am not anti-Catholic. My niece was Catholic for many years before she converted to a Pentecostal Church, and she still considers herself a Christian during the time she was in the Catholic Church. Some of my family was upset she was a Catholic and wanted her to come "to Jesus," and they finally received the "good news" she was a born-again Christian.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, I am not anti-Catholic. My niece was Catholic for many years before she converted to a Pentecostal Church, and she still considers herself a Christian during the time she was in the Catholic Church. Some of my family was upset she was a Catholic and wanted her to come "to Jesus," and they finally received the "good news" she was a born-again Christian.

That sounds fairly anti-Catholic.

 

[The Liturgist]

and they finally received the "good news" she was a born-again Christian.

While I’m not Roman Catholic, I feel obliged to point out that Roman Catholics absolutely are born again Christians, with legitimate sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist. Roman Catholics are born again of the Holy Spirit through the sacraments of baptism and confirmation, and like the Orthodox receive the very Body and Blood of Christ our True God in the Eucharist.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

That sounds fairly anti-Catholic.

It's not, though. That's why I put the words into quotation marks. That was to show you my relative's views, not mine.

 

[BobRyan]

It's been almost five months since I last posted here

I did not see that post

, but I believe you are correct. It is not an idiom

Indeed it is not.

There was another Sabbath other than the weekly Sabbath. And the singular for Sabbath is sometimes spelled with the plural spelling—at least according to the BDAG and other Greek New Testament scholars like Robert Mounce. I can't argue for it due to my lack of Greek knowledge, but I do know there are Greek scholars who claim that the plural spelling does not always mean a plural meaning.

interesting

But wherever the expression "the Sabbath" occurs in the Christian Bible, it refers to the weekly Sabbath. At least, no one can prove otherwise.

that appears to be correct. Certainly it can be said that in the NT when you see a weekly day of worship it is specifically the Sabbath since in many of those cases non-Christian Jews are worshiping on that day in the Synagogue - not just Christians.