Why did Pope Francis restrict the ancient Latin Mass?

[chevyontheriver]

You really don't understand contemplation, do you ?

If you say so.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Even the GIRM presupposes that orientation in it's instructions.

Not to challenge you but I can't find it.

All I find is:



50. When the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest stands at the chair and, together with the whole gathering, makes the Sign of the Cross. Then he signifies the presence of the Lord to the community gathered there by means of the Greeting. By this Greeting and the people’s response, the mystery of the Church gathered together is made manifest.

After the greeting of the people, the priest, the deacon, or a lay minister may very briefly introduce the faithful to the Mass of the day.

78. Now the center and summit of the entire celebration begins: namely, the Eucharistic Prayer, that is, the prayer of thanksgiving and sanctification. The priest invites the people to lift up their hearts to the Lord in prayer and thanksgiving; he unites the congregation with himself in the prayer that he addresses in the name of the entire community to God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the meaning of the Prayer is that the entire congregation of the faithful should join itself with Christ in confessing the great deeds of God and in the offering of Sacrifice. The Eucharistic Prayer demands that all listen to it with reverence and in silence.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not to challenge you but I can't find it.

All I find is:



50. When the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest stands at the chair and, together with the whole gathering, makes the Sign of the Cross. Then he signifies the presence of the Lord to the community gathered there by means of the Greeting. By this Greeting and the people’s response, the mystery of the Church gathered together is made manifest.

After the greeting of the people, the priest, the deacon, or a lay minister may very briefly introduce the faithful to the Mass of the day.

78. Now the center and summit of the entire celebration begins: namely, the Eucharistic Prayer, that is, the prayer of thanksgiving and sanctification. The priest invites the people to lift up their hearts to the Lord in prayer and thanksgiving; he unites the congregation with himself in the prayer that he addresses in the name of the entire community to God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the meaning of the Prayer is that the entire congregation of the faithful should join itself with Christ in confessing the great deeds of God and in the offering of Sacrifice. The Eucharistic Prayer demands that all listen to it with reverence and in silence.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal

My bad. It was not the GIRM but the Roman Missal itself. The Normativity of <i>Ad Orientem</i> Worship According to the Ordinary Form’s Rubrics

The Roman Missal tells the priests when to face the people, with the presumption that they need to turn around because they were before that facing ad orientem.

But then there is this from GIRM 2, pointed out by Peter Kwasniewski:

"Particularly striking, in any case, is this passage from GIRM 2:

[T]he doctrine which stands out in the following sentence, already notable and concisely expressed in the ancient Sacramentary commonly called the Leonine — “for whenever the memorial of this sacrifice is celebrated the work of our redemption is accomplished” — is aptly and exactly expounded in the Eucharistic Prayers; for as in these the Priest enacts the anamnesis, while turned towards God likewise in the name of all the people, he renders thanks and offers the living and holy sacrifice, that is, the Church’s oblation and the sacrificial Victim by whose death God himself willed to reconcile us to himself; and the Priest also prays that the Body and Blood of Christ may be a sacrifice which is acceptable to the Father and which brings salvation to the whole world.

Part of the new liturgical movement is surely rediscovering how just and right it is when the priest is "turned towards God in the name of all the people" -- and when the people, facing east together with him, offer up the sacrifice of praise."

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

My bad. It was not the GIRM but the Roman Missal itself. The Normativity of <i>Ad Orientem</i> Worship According to the Ordinary Form’s Rubrics

The Roman Missal tells the priests when to face the people, with the presumption that they need to turn around because they were before that facing ad orientem.

But then there is this from GIRM 2, pointed out by Peter Kwasniewski:

"Particularly striking, in any case, is this passage from GIRM 2:

Part of the new liturgical movement is surely rediscovering how just and right it is when the priest is "turned towards God in the name of all the people" -- and when the people, facing east together with him, offer up the sacrifice of praise."

Thanks. It seems like a lot of turning.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thanks. It seems like a lot of turning.

It DOES. But then did we just do away with all of that turning because it was so difficult?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It DOES. But then did we just do away with all of that turning because it was so difficult?

Well, I was a 12 year old altar boy when we made the change.
I think once the altar was moved away from the back wall, or I should say added, then the priest never went back.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Well, I was a 12 year old altar boy when we made the change.
I think once the altar was moved away from the back wall, or I should say added, then the priest never went back.

I never did the altar boy thing. I wasn't eligible because I went to public school and that was reserved for those at the parish school. I don't think I noticed the direction the priest was facing at the time it was changed. I did notice the three year Lectionary when it came in. At the time I saw it as entirely positive. Now I would like to see it 'tuned' a bit to capture the 'missing verses'.

My main concern with the priest only facing the people is that it seems they can get caught up in putting on a show.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I never did the altar boy thing. I wasn't eligible because I went to public school and that was reserved for those at the parish school. I don't think I noticed the direction the priest was facing at the time it was changed. I did notice the three year Lectionary when it came in. At the time I saw it as entirely positive. Now I would like to see it 'tuned' a bit to capture the 'missing verses'.

My main concern with the priest only facing the people is that it seems they can get caught up in putting on a show.

I have not seen that. Usually they are focused on reading the prayers and handling that cup and host with care.
It seems more natural to me: "Lift up your hearts". Imagine facing the people for that and then turning around again for the Eucharistic prayer. The back again for the Our Father, Turn again for Agnus Dei. Gets dizzy.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I never did the altar boy thing. I wasn't eligible because I went to public school and that was reserved for those at the parish school.

How old are you Chevy ?

I ran into the same problem. I was signed up for the training and everything when my parent pulled me out of Catholic school and sent me to the local public school (Very good reasons and probably the correct decision but - it still hurt)

Now, they'll take anybody.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How old are you Chevy ?

Pushing 70. And this was in St. Paul MN.

I ran into the same problem. I was signed up for the training and everything when my parent pulled me out of Catholic school and sent me to the local public school (Very good reasons and probably the correct decision but - it still hurt)

I definitely felt 'less equal'.

Now, they'll take anybody.

And not so many parents are excited about letting them. Perhaps it was just as well not to have done it. I have served at mass when on retreat, so there's that.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I have served at mass when on retreat, so there's that.

I wish they would revive and honor the orders of Porter, Acolyte and Lector for the otherwise lay person.
Let's make a big deal out of the responsibilities we take with prayer, training and discernment.

 

[Lady Bug]

It IS illegal to publicize the TLM in parish bulletins or in other media. That was in the follow-up document to Traditiones Custodes.

What exactly do you mean? Are you saying it's illegal to publish the date and time of TLM in bulletins? This happens in the bulletin of my former parish. However, it's not exactly a TLM, it's an NO said in Latin.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What exactly do you mean? Are you saying it's illegal to publish the date and time of TLM in bulletins? This happens in the bulletin of my former parish. However, it's not exactly a TLM, it's an NO said in Latin.

There was a followup document to Traditiones Custodes from the Vatican that instructed that the TLM NOT be advertised in parish bulletins. Seems kind of micro-managerial but nonetheless they made that rule. A NO in Latin is not under the same Vatican prohibition, although some bishops have forbidden that too.

 

[RileyG]

There was a followup document to Traditiones Custodes from the Vatican that instructed that the TLM NOT be advertised in parish bulletins. Seems kind of micro-managerial but nonetheless they made that rule. A NO in Latin is not under the same Vatican prohibition, although some bishops have forbidden that too.

How common is a NO in Latin? I knew they used to celebrate it on EWTN? I prefer the old TLM if I would attend.

I go to the NO 99.999% of the time. Only been to the TLM about five times in my city.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I wish they would revive and honor the orders of Porter, Acolyte and Lector for the otherwise lay person.
Let's make a big deal out of the responsibilities we take with prayer, training and discernment.

Not sure why they had to be suppressed. I don't think it would be easy to un-suppress them while Traditiones Custodes stands.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How common is a NO in Latin? I knew they used to celebrate it on EWTN? I prefer the old TLM if I would attend.

I go to the NO 99.999% of the time. Only been to the TLM about five times in my city.

The NO in Latin is rare. St. Agnes in St Paul MN had it since 1970, never having not had a Latin mass. But they also had English and German masses.

 

[RileyG]

Not sure why they had to be suppressed. I don't think it would be easy to un-suppress them while Traditiones Custodes stands.

What about the Sarum Rite? Or the Ambrosian rite? Mozarabic Rite? Have they been suppressed as well?

I think the Anglican use and Zaire Rite are still actively celebrated, but rare.

(The Sarum Rite is incredibly gorgeous. Too bad it's very rarely celebrated)

 

[RileyG]

The NO in Latin is rare. St. Agnes in St Paul MN had it since 1970, never having not had a Latin mass. But they also had English and German masses.

Ah, thanks for the info! German mass? Was it mostly an ethnic thing? Most Catholics from Germany would come from Southern Germany and those in Northern Germany would be Lutheran IIRC?

 

[RileyG]

What about the Sarum Rite? Or the Ambrosian rite? Mozarabic Rite? Have they been suppressed as well?

I think the Anglican use and Zaire Rite are still actively celebrated, but rare.

(The Sarum Rite is incredibly gorgeous. Too bad it's very rarely celebrated)

The Sarum Rite (Use of Salisbury) which would have been the Mass celebrated in England prior to the Reformation.

Here it is celebrated by Catholic priests on the Feast of Candlemass, February 2nd 1997.

Catholic priests celebrating Mass in an Anglican chapel.

It's beyond gorgeous.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What about the Sarum Rite? Or the Ambrosian rite? Mozarabic Rite? Have they been suppressed as well?

As I understand it they have not been suppressed. But I'm not absolutely sure. I know the Eastern Rites all continue on.

I think the Anglican use and Zaire Rite are still actively celebrated, but rare.

Do you mean the Ordinariate Liturgy? There are less than 100 sites in all of the USA that have that. My guess is closer to 50 sites. One in Omaha would be closest for you. As to the Zaire liturgy I have no idea where that is in the USA.

(The Sarum Rite is incredibly gorgeous. Too bad it's very rarely celebrated)

Never experienced it. Wish I could. I know the Ordinariate talks about it a bit.