Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

[Guojing]

We dont know that either.

That means you disagree with what Jesus stated in Luke 4:27.

 

[Guojing]

...

During the OT, under the Law of Moses, leprosy was a sign of man being cursed by God.

Leprosy, it was believed, was inflicted by God Himself. They called leprosy “The Finger of God”.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/472423#:~:text=Leprosy%20was%20a%20disease%20inflicted,the%20%22%20finger%20of%20God.%22

Because leprosy was inflicted by God, called “The Finger of God”, the Jews believed that only God or His Messiah would be able to cleanse a leper.

Jesus healing a leper, one of his first healing miracle he performed in Matthew 8, would be the perfect sign to alert the priests in the temple that their Messiah has finally arrived in Israel.

 

[johansen]

That means you disagree with what Jesus stated in Luke 4:27.

Jesus was specific to the time of that prophet.

There were more righteous times in Israel's history

 

[Guojing]

Jesus was specific to the time of that prophet.

There were more righteous times in Israel's history

If you want to split hair like that, alright then

 

[johansen]

If you want to split hair like that, alright then

Its not splitting hairs.

Does not deut have a warning not to add words?

Its in chapter 4. We have a mountain of words added since then. To include the rest of the book of deut.

Wouldn't it make sense to put that warning at the end of moses' commissions in chapter 31,32, etc?

 

[Guojing]

Its not splitting hairs.

If all his listeners understood Luke 4:27 as only applying to the time of Elisha, they won't be wrathful enough at Jesus to want to throw him off the cliff.

That is why I said you are splitting hair. You are just disagreeing with me for the sake of it.

 

[johansen]

If all his listeners understood Luke 4:27 as only applying to the time of Elisha, they won't be wrathful enough at Jesus to want to throw him off the cliff.

they were filled with wrath because Jesus indirectly told them: there was not one righteous person in the time of elisha. except a syrian!

they idolized their prophets to the point they rejected God himself. Jesus called them out on that, they got angry. its really that simple.

 

[Dan Perez]

I can see your points. A good teaching that takes a different perspective I read is here. Divine Healing: Is It In The Atonement? | Moody Church Media | Articles | Moody Church Media
Here is a decent Assembly of God article on relating healing to the atonement. file:///C:/Users/Erin/Downloads/HealingandAtonement.pdf
Some too look at healing in communion.

I won't say that things are perfectly clear. I can see how some might take one side or the other on this. However, when i look at the great healing ministers of the past. Nearly all taught God not only had the ability to heal and that he was willing to heal. Sure some went away sick at their meetings, but many were healed as well. Healing may not be instant but it is included. Jehovah Rapha's name is still the same today as it was back then. So I would still look at a lack of healing as being something on our end. However, if one has decided that it is for God's glory, such as Corrie Ten Boom, then Amen for that person.

And since the OLD COVENANT is over , I believe that MARK 16:17 and I believe that will happen in the

GREAT TRIBULATION .

dan p

 

[Richard T]

And since the OLD COVENANT is over , I believe that MARK 16:17 and I believe that will happen in the

GREAT TRIBULATION .

dan p

It seems in context he is talking to his disciples but then he goes on to say "them that believe." But if I may ask how does that jump to the tribulation? It should be noted too that some believe Mark 16 ends at verse 8, since many earlier manuscripts of Mark end there. Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

 

[johansen]

And since the OLD COVENANT is over , I believe that MARK 16:17 and I believe that will happen in the

GREAT TRIBULATION .

dan p

Im still wondering how a person who doesnt believe any leppers were cured between elijah and Jesus could argue the old covenant for israel was better than the new for us.. and i suppose by deffinition such a person would not believe the old covenant is over. (at least for the jews... hmm.. they cured leprosy.. through vaccines? no more curses?"

I have lost friends in real life who admitted to me after a couple years of study of the OT that they said they don't understand the gospel anymore. I couldn't figure out if they were in sin and Jesus was not blessing them, or if they were thinking the old covenant is better and must follow the law to get God's blessing while simultaniously asking Jesus who isn't god to forgive sin. i couldn't figure it out, and coincindentally at the time these issues arose i was spiritually informed to part ways. so i did.

I am well aware of the theory that leprosy was a curse. My jewish friend was taught under a rabbi in israel about 10 years ago, that it was a curse for being...too spiritual!.

So im sure you can understand thats nonsense. A spiritual person is a person in good communion with God.. and such a person would not ever be cursed for being too preoccupied with the spiritual realm.

but that is what a rabbi in israel is (probably) still teaching.

 

[Guojing]

But if I may ask how does that jump to the tribulation?

A lot of these "tough" instructions of Jesus in the 4 Gospels, including selling all your possessions, the ones about plucking out your eyes and cutting off limbs, will make more sense if you are aware that Jesus coming to Israel was not a surprise to any Jew who understands Daniel's prophetic timetable.

That is why Mary was not shocked when Gabriel told her she will give birth to the Messiah. Jews who study the OT know that the time is imminent for the birth of the Son of God.

If you were a Jew living in the time of Jesus's first coming, you will know these 2 things

For Israel to enter the kingdom of God, under the gospel of the kingdom, faith in Jesus + obeying the Law are required.

Daniel's 70th week will begin soon for Israel, since the Messiah will be "cut off" in week 69th.

Daniel's prophetic timetable, that the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of week 69th, that means Israel has an upcoming 7 years of Tribulation (the 70th week) that can take place anytime starting from Acts 1

So when you are expecting the antichrist and the mark of the beast soon, giving away all your money and your possessions to share, is a sound strategy (James 5:1-8).

 

[Richard T]

Since no one could follow the law it was a mere tutor to show your need for Jesus. Salvation comes from the faith in Jesus. For the OT, it was for the coming Messiah, for the NT it is now the past Messiah. The law could not save then and it does not save now. I admit the law now is simpler, but again no one is perfect. Fruits are important but absolute obedience is never required. The man who sinned with his father's wife in immorality. He was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit could be saved. He repented and was restored most think but nonetheless, his salvation was not in doubt. Of course this is an old theological argument and I lean toward a more Arminianism approach and you probably do not. That too might explain differences in our views on healings. By all means elaborate as I do think it is related to the topic of healing.

 

[Guojing]

Since no one could follow the law it was a mere tutor to show your need for Jesus. Salvation comes from the faith in Jesus. For the OT, it was for the coming Messiah, for the NT it is now the past Messiah. The law could not save then and it does not save now. I admit the law now is simpler, but again no one is perfect. Fruits are important but absolute obedience is never required. The man who sinned with his father's wife in immorality. He was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit could be saved. He repented and was restored most think but nonetheless, his salvation was not in doubt. Of course this is an old theological argument and I lean toward a more Arminianism approach and you probably do not. That too might explain differences in our views on healings. By all means elaborate as I do think it is related to the topic of healing.

The main point that answers your question was

Daniel's 70th week will begin soon for Israel, since the Messiah will be "cut off" in week 69th.

Daniel's prophetic timetable, that the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of week 69th, that means Israel has an upcoming 7 years of Tribulation (the 70th week) that can take place anytime starting from Acts 1

 

[Richard T]

The main point that answers your question was

Daniel's 70th week will begin soon for Israel, since the Messiah will be "cut off" in week 69th.

Daniel's prophetic timetable, that the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of week 69th, that means Israel has an upcoming 7 years of Tribulation (the 70th week) that can take place anytime starting from Acts 1

Yes, I believe we are in agreement on this.

 

[johansen]

He was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh

i tend to think its a euphemism for handing someone over to the roman authorities for punishment.

 

[Richard T]

i tend to think its a euphemism for handing someone over to the roman authorities for punishment.

That is an interesting interpretation. I am taught it links with the sin unto death. That gross sin may open the door for physical death. This is extremely rare.
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Ananias, and Sapphira might also attest to this interpretation though one would have to assume they went to heaven.

 

[Guojing]

Since no one could follow the law it was a mere tutor to show your need for Jesus. Salvation comes from the faith in Jesus. For the OT, it was for the coming Messiah, for the NT it is now the past Messiah. The law could not save then and it does not save now.

I am not claiming the law could save anyone.

I am saying, under the gospel of the kingdom, the Law continue to be required for Israel to enter their promised kingdom (Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 28:20).

 

[Guojing]

Yes, I believe we are in agreement on this.

If you are, then what is your view,

has the Tribulation passed already?
has Christ returned for Israel,?
Are we now in the millennial kingdom?

 

[johansen]

That is an interesting interpretation. I am taught it links with the sin unto death. That gross sin may open the door for physical death. This is extremely rare.
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Ananias, and Sapphira might also attest to this interpretation though one would have to assume they went to heaven.

I couldn't understand that verse for a long time and then one day I heard a different interpretation:

"I do not say that anyone pray for them" [those who commit sin on to death]

-in other words there are people beyond repentance, don't waste your time praying for them.

 

[johansen]

As for healing, I asked God to deal with one of my gf's problems if He wanted us to get married.. the issue cleared up that month.

Other problems showed up over the last 2 years and it is clear to me that the timing for God to heal her body depended on a lot of prerequisites to include a godly self image of the body, sexauality, purpose, faith that God will heal, attempted reconciliation with a member of our church who hurt her 15 years ago in grade school, etc.. . That process took several years for her, before she authentically asked the elders of our church to pray for her, in obedience to the Spirit inspiring her to do so. And also its possible that we had to wait that long to prove the matter was in fact "healed" -i'm sure you can read between the lines here for what i'm talking about.

I've been privy to the details of several people's personal lives and I find much unrighteousness hindering them from being healed.

In one case I was inspired to pray for a person's consolation. I knew nothing of her personal life at the time but a year later i did help her and her ex husband repaint the condo they owned so they could sell it. awkward lol..

So anyhow when I did get the guts to tell her I was inspired to pray for her consolation a while ago, initially she was happy that God had put that on my heart to pray for, but then the blood almost drained out of her face like "I do not need that nor want to continue this conversation"... in other conversations i've had with her, i bring up the issue of what do we do when we do not want God to heal us.. she's like "oh yes i know that problem" -that was 6 years ago i've heard she is doing well recently.