Christian, Jewish groups sue Trump admin. over move to allow immigration raids in churches

[Michie]

Several religious organizations, including Christian and Jewish denominations and conferences, have filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration's decision to allow immigration enforcement agents to enter houses of worship.

In a joint complaint filed Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, the more than two dozen religious bodies argued that allowing raids by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement at churches violated their religious freedom rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

"An immigration enforcement action during worship services, ministry work, or other congregational activities would be devastating to their religious practice," reads the suit.

Continued below.

Christian, Jewish groups sue Trump admin. over move to allow immigration raids in churches

Several religious organizations, including Christian and Jewish denominations and conferences, have filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration s decision to allow immigration enforcement agents

www.christianpost.com

 

[Clare73]

Christian churches are not harbors for law breakers (Ro 13:1-4).

 

[Tuur]

Know of an instance where law enforcement set up a license check at a funeral.

A check turned up an East St. Louis minister arrested during his sermon:

Also, another minister arrested while he preached:

Pastor arrested again for trespassing, preaches on while handcuffed and removed from church by St. Clair Co. deputy

I was looking for instances of other arrests. Have there been drug arrests in a church? Came across this, but it doesn't seem that there was a service at the time:

Pastor, son charged after drug bust at church, deputies say

Basically, it seems that the only bar to arrest in a church in the US is probable cause and the discretion of law enforcement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Know of an instance where law enforcement set up a license check at a funeral.

A check turned up an East St. Louis minister arrested during his sermon:

Also, another minister arrested while he preached:

Pastor arrested again for trespassing, preaches on while handcuffed and removed from church by St. Clair Co. deputy

I was looking for instances of other arrests. Have there been drug arrests in a church? Came across this, but it doesn't seem that there was a service at the time:

Pastor, son charged after drug bust at church, deputies say

Basically, it seems that the only bar to arrest in a church in the US is probable cause and the discretion of law enforcement.

Yeah not the typical place one would look for hardened criminal gang members. I’m all for deporting hardened criminals, but that was never actually the plan. The plan is simple, get rid of all the Mexicans, or at least as many as we can legally. I actually support most of Trump’s policies, just not this one.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christian churches are not harbors for law breakers (Ro 13:1-4).

I imagine that it was probably illegal to harbor spies in Jericho, and yet Rahab found favor with God for doing so. Would you quote Romans 13:1-4 in response to the Underground Railroad or the Gestapo imprisonment of Jews?

 

[Clare73]

I imagine that it was probably illegal to harbor spies in Jericho, and yet Rahab found favor with God for doing so. Would you quote Romans 13:1-4 in response to the Underground Railroad or the Gestapo imprisonment of Jews?

So Paul got it wrong in Ro 13:1-4?

Slavery was not against God's law (Lev 25:44-46), imprisonment is not against God's law.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I imagine that it was probably illegal to harbor spies in Jericho, and yet Rahab found favor with God for doing so. Would you quote Romans 13:1-4 in response to the Underground Railroad or the Gestapo imprisonment of Jews?J

Jericho wasn't the United States with laws for and by the people.

The sanctuary tradition was in the European monarchies before democracy existed. A criminal could take refuge
from the King's men by going into a church building.

Today the laws have changed and that tradition no longer exist in democracies. A criminal that tries to evade
ICE by going into a church will be captured by ICE. There is no sanctuary there for criminals.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So Paul got it wrong in Ro 13:1-4?

No, you just have to look at all scripture when making these kinds of decisions. All throughout scripture secular laws never overruled God’s laws. I mean he did write most of his epistles from prison.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jericho wasn't the United States with laws for and by the people.

The sanctuary tradition was in the European monarchies before democracy existed. A criminal could take refuge
from the King's men by going into a church building.

Today the laws have changed and that tradition no longer exist in democracies. A criminal that tries to evade
ICE by going into a church will be captured by ICE. There is no sanctuary there for criminals.

Who said they’re going to church to evade ICE? Throughout the scriptures God always took the side of those who placed His laws ABOVE secular laws. All of the apostles died as martyrs because they refused to comply with secular laws. So laws that are written by the people do not overrule laws written by God.

 

[Clare73]

No, you just have to look at all scripture when making these kinds of decisions. All throughout scripture secular laws never overruled God’s laws. I mean he did write most of his epistles from prison.

Only for the people of God.

Slavery was not against God's law (Lev 25:44-46), imprisonment is not against God's law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only for the people of God.

Romans 13:1-4 was only written to people of God.

 

[Tuur]

I imagine that it was probably illegal to harbor spies in Jericho, and yet Rahab found favor with God for doing so. Would you quote Romans 13:1-4 in response to the Underground Railroad or the Gestapo imprisonment of Jews?

And there it is. Riddle me this:

1. Was it God's intent for Jericho?
2. Was there a legal path for manumission?
3. Do you equate imprisoning those who come to the US illegally with those who were imprisoned because they were descendants of Abraham?

The answers, of course, are:

1. Yes. God let His intent be known to the Children of Israel. I know some have been looking for passages of scripture to justify coming to the US illegally, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no clear statement from God concerning this.

2. By 1860, for all intents and purposes, no. Georgia, IIRC only had manumission by legislative act for each slave. The reason was fear of a large population of free blacks and also a dirty trick of emancipating elderly slaves who could no longer look after themselves so that their owners didn't have to pay to care for them. Contrast that to there being a legal path for immigration to the US that's a lot easier than requiring a literal act of congress for each immigrant.

3. Being there's a legal path for immigration to the US, there is absolutely no comparison to deporting those who come illegally and those the Germans sent to concentration camps.

 

[Tuur]

Romans 13:1-4 was only written to people of God.

More applicable is what Peter said to the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:19 ). The question then is can it be shown that aiding and abetting illegal entry into the US is the will of God? I'm still wondering how many who feel that it is would set up a mission to help those who wish to come to the US legally.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And there it is. Riddle me this:

1. Was it God's intent for Jericho?
2. Was there a legal path for manumission?
3. Do you equate imprisoning those who come to the US illegally with those who were imprisoned because they were descendants of Abraham?

The answers, of course, are:

1. Yes. God let His intent be known to the Children of Israel. I know some have been looking for passages of scripture to justify coming to the US illegally, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no clear statement from God concerning this.

2. By 1860, for all intents and purposes, no. Georgia, IIRC only had manumission by legislative act for each slave. The reason was fear of a large population of free blacks and also a dirty trick of emancipating elderly slaves who could no longer look after themselves so that their owners didn't have to pay to care for them. Contrast that to there being a legal path for immigration to the US that's a lot easier than requiring a literal act of congress for each immigrant.

3. Being there's a legal path for immigration to the US, there is absolutely no comparison to deporting those who come illegally and those the Germans sent to concentration camps.

If you can’t see the verses in scripture teaching Christians to have compassion for those who are in need then you know nothing about the word of God.

Maybe you’re not aware that dealing with USCIS to get a visa and a green card isn’t cheap. People who can barely keep food on the table to feed their families can’t afford to pay the fees associated with getting a visa or a green card. I’m a white American born & raised in the US and it took me 4 years to save up enough money to get a green card for my wife & two daughters and that was with me filing the paperwork myself without a lawyer which isn’t easy. There’s literally 18 pages of instructions to file an I-485 application. Not to mention the medical examination costs on top of that. All together it costed about $6,000 for my wife & two daughters. If it’s that hard for me to do it on an American wage, imagine how impossible that would be on a Mexican or South American wage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

More applicable is what Peter said to the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:19 ). The question then is can it be shown that aiding and abetting illegal entry into the US is the will of God? I'm still wondering how many who feel that it is would set up a mission to help those who wish to come to the US legally.

The way I see it your argument is just as ridiculous as those who advocated for abortions saying that abortions protect rape victims and people who have medical complications when the fact is that not even 2% of abortions were conducted for those purposes. Meanwhile over 600,000 innocent children were being killed every year. What I see is millions of people coming to America hoping to make a better life for their families so they can afford to put food on the table and a bunch of paranoid “Christians” who care more about themselves than the welfare of these people who are in desperate need of help. Saying that they’re afraid of illegal immigrants because 1% of them might be gang members when the fact is that the vast majority of violent crimes are actually committed in the US by US CITIZENS!! It’s like being afraid of one gun being pointed at you by an illegal immigrant when there’s 50 other guns pointed at you by US citizens. What I suspect is that these “Christians” aren’t actually Christians at all, they’re actually racists who don’t care about anyone other than themselves.

 

[Tuur]

If you can’t see the verses in scripture teaching Christians to have compassion for those who are in need then you know nothing about the word of God.

Maybe you’re not aware that dealing with USCIS to get a visa and a green card isn’t cheap. People who can barely keep food on the table to feed their families can’t afford to pay the fees associated with getting a visa or a green card. I’m a white American born & raised in the US and it took me 4 years to save up enough money to get a green card for my wife & two daughters and that was with me filing the paperwork myself without a lawyer which isn’t easy. There’s literally 18 pages of instructions to file an I-485 application. Not to mention the medical examination costs on top of that. All together it costed about $6,000 for my wife & two daughters. If it’s that hard for me to do it on an American wage, imagine how impossible that would be on a Mexican or South American wage.

Compassion is one thing; aiding and abetting is another. Suppose a hungry man breaks into a store to steal food. Would you help him do so? If you didn't, would that mean you had no compassion? What, then, of the command "Do not steal?"

Where, then, is the command that nations shall have no borders? Where is the command that we are to help people illegally enter the US? Is it not better to help someone who desires to come to the US legally do so?

 

[Tuur]

The way I see it your argument is just as ridiculous as those who advocated for abortions saying that abortions protect rape victims and people who have medical complications when the fact is that not even 2% of abortions were conducted for those purposes. Meanwhile over 600,000 innocent children were being killed every year. What I see is millions of people coming to America hoping to make a better life for their families so they can afford to put food on the table and a bunch of paranoid “Christians” who care more about themselves than the welfare of these people who are in desperate need of help. Saying that they’re afraid of illegal immigrants because 1% of them might be gang members when the fact is that the vast majority of violent crimes are actually committed in the US by US CITIZENS!! It’s like being afraid of one gun being pointed at you by an illegal immigrant when there’s 50 other guns pointed at you by US citizens. What I suspect is that these “Christians” aren’t actually Christians at all, they’re actually racists who don’t care about anyone other than themselves.

On the contrary, it's the situation whenever a Christian finds himself at odds with his government. Peter defied the Sanhedrin on the basis it was better to obey God than man. What you regard as ridiculous is a very serious question.

 

[FireDragon76]

Compassion is one thing; aiding and abetting is another. Suppose a hungry man breaks into a store to steal food. Would you help him do so? If you didn't, would that mean you had no compassion? What, then, of the command "Do not steal?"

Where, then, is the command that nations shall have no borders? Where is the command that we are to help people illegally enter the US? Is it not better to help someone who desires to come to the US legally do so?

Being in the US without a green card isn't a felony crime, or even a misdemeanour. It's a violation of civil code only. Calling somebody who is undocumented a criminal is factually incorrect, even by the standards of the law.

 

[FireDragon76]

Compassion is one thing; aiding and abetting is another. Suppose a hungry man breaks into a store to steal food. Would you help him do so? If you didn't, would that mean you had no compassion? What, then, of the command "Do not steal?"

Where, then, is the command that nations shall have no borders? Where is the command that we are to help people illegally enter the US? Is it not better to help someone who desires to come to the US legally do so?

There are plenty of commandments in the Bible advocating for aliens and sojourners.

People that use the Bible to advocate for cruelty and indifference to those in need are simply engaged in a kind of legalism and hardness of heart that is a grave spiritual matter that threatens their soul.

 

[Tuur]

Being in the US without a green card isn't a felony crime, or even a misdemeanour. It's a violation of civil code only. Calling somebody who is undocumented a criminal is factually incorrect, even by the standards of the law.

Wrong. It's part of the US Code, period. It's Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter 2, Part VIII, Section 1325. See:

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

Illegally entering the US is indeed a misdemeanor. Note that violation can be subject to up to two years imprisonment (see the first paragraph of the cite above).

The instance you're citing is someone who entered legally, but then had their visa to lapse. That's known as unlawful presence, Someone who had a visa entered the US legally, but if it lapses, then they are here unlawfully and are subject to deportation.