The future of Mainline Protestantism in the US

[FireDragon76]

Even though this discussion is several years old, I find it is still as relevant as ever.

The guests' observations seem to be more or less accurate, and I've been involved in several Mainline denominations. Especially regarding how postmodern deconstruction has taken an ugly turn that can only criticize, but offers a weak or nonexistant, constructive vision in response. And this is something that has become programmatic in alot of Mainline Protestantism, and a cancer that is eating it from within. As a result, people in the pews are too often left with a love of the Church, in an almost pathological and nostalgic way, but little enthusiasm for things like mission or even passing on the religion to their children.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Reminds me of the last time I listened to a speaker in one of them. An open public unrepentant, living and advocating in flagrant defiance of many written commitments of both the denom and God Himself, declared "This is my church, no matter what." It was amply clear that all authorities lacked any backbone to deal with it in Godly fashion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Reminds me of the last time I listened to a speaker in one of them. An open public unrepentant, living and advocating in flagrant defiance of many written commitments of both the denom and God Himself, declared "This is my church, no matter what." It was amply clear that all authorities lacked any backbone to deal with it in Godly fashion.

I think alot of what is happening in my experience is in the shadow of fear and grief, much more than a spirit of defiance.

My own congregation has only a few years of life left, if current trends stay the way they are, we just won't be able to be financially afloat. We need to make difficult decisions, perhaps even try something radical (like merge with a local Disciples of Christ congregation, perhaps.), which should have been made years ago, and I'm afraid alot of people just can't get past the weight of grief that is under the surface if they have to face facts. And really, I cannot blame the younger generation at my church, many of whom themselves are newcomers, much of the blame must be placed on older generations, who were not good stewards of what was entrusted to them (and I believe this is true of much of American society, not just in Mainline churches).

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

A church to which Sweet Lori and I were called for some years (I play piano and keys, she sings), was a case well in your point. There were a few who understood, but almost all of the oldest generation flatly refused to come to the sanctuary (using the chair-lift which was installed when we were there), preferring to sit and sleep downstairs in their room; and most of the next generation was characterized by one brave enough to speak up in Sunday school, asking the pastor "Why don't you get more normal people for our church?" I laughed. Others carefully explained why. That speaker was one of the trustees, and also was in charge of the ministry and music team, though she never said anything to us about any of that directly, preferring to dangle the pastor's job and influence him rather than fellowship with us.

After a few of those years (I am very stubborn) they put me on the board (there were both trustees and a board, separate groups), and I quietly listened for several months to financial bemoanings...until the Lord caused me to actually run the numbers. To my surprise, I found that although the government of the church was monetarily terrified and spoke it whenever they could find the faintest excuse, there was at least three years' operating funds in the bank, and possibly more like twelve; when they realized I was actually doing math and figuring things out, those in charge of finances stopped talking to me very much. But I was able to establish that much and no refutation was attempted. That church's board, during my last meeting as part of them, voted to hold a funeral for themselves. Sweet Lori and I left immediately, without any further comment to any of them. We were able to help a very few refugees afterward.

The strongest theory I grew, was that the devotion of the powers of that church was to their society of human beings similar to each other, and not to Christ the Lord. But there were several noteworthy exceptions who were grateful for the influence of the Lord.

The very strangest part of the above, to me, is that something not very different happened in a different church, some years after. The elders there proclaimed financial disaster; but when the numbers were run, there was ten years' operating funds in the bank. That one imploded a bit more gradually, and I was told afterwards there was possibly actual physical sabotage within. A bit more strangeness in some ways.

In both, there was very strong passive-resistance and active-resistance to any real improvement in the situation of the churches, and there was need, the children were not being engaged or educated, were being offended, by church-folk who treated them more or less as pets. I did keep Sunday school classes in both...but I have to be honest and forthright, when anyone, most of all children, ask me why things happen, and the powers of the churches did not like my answers, nor did they like the growth exhibited in those classes.

 

[FireDragon76]

A church to which Sweet Lori and I were called for some years (I play piano and keys, she sings), was a case well in your point. There were a few who understood, but almost all of the oldest generation flatly refused to come to the sanctuary (using the chair-lift which was installed when we were there), preferring to sit and sleep downstairs in their room; and most of the next generation was characterized by one brave enough to speak up in Sunday school, asking the pastor "Why don't you get more normal people for our church?" I laughed. Others carefully explained why. That speaker was one of the trustees, and also was in charge of the ministry and music team, though she never said anything to us about any of that directly, preferring to dangle the pastor's job and influence him rather than fellowship with us.

After a few of those years (I am very stubborn) they put me on the board (there were both trustees and a board, separate groups), and I quietly listened for several months to financial bemoanings...until the Lord caused me to actually run the numbers. To my surprise, I found that although the government of the church was monetarily terrified and spoke it whenever they could find the faintest excuse, there was at least three years' operating funds in the bank, and possibly more like twelve; when they realized I was actually doing math and figuring things out, those in charge of finances stopped talking to me very much. But I was able to establish that much and no refutation was attempted. That church's board, during my last meeting as part of them, voted to hold a funeral for themselves. Sweet Lori and I left immediately, without any further comment to any of them. We were able to help a very few refugees afterward.

The strongest theory I grew, was that the devotion of the powers of that church was to their society of human beings similar to each other, and not to Christ the Lord. But there were several noteworthy exceptions who were grateful for the influence of the Lord.

The very strangest part of the above, to me, is that something not very different happened in a different church, some years after. The elders there proclaimed financial disaster; but when the numbers were run, there was ten years' operating funds in the bank. That one imploded a bit more gradually, and I was told afterwards there was possibly actual physical sabotage within. A bit more strangeness in some ways.

In both, there was very strong passive-resistance and active-resistance to any real improvement in the situation of the churches, and there was need, the children were not being engaged or educated, were being offended, by church-folk who treated them more or less as pets. I did keep Sunday school classes in both...but I have to be honest and forthright, when anyone, most of all children, ask me why things happen, and the powers of the churches did not like my answers, nor did they like the growth exhibited in those classes.

The treasurer is honest and I trust him. I just figured since I knew the church property was paid off, that things wouldn't be so dire. But I sat in on a council meeting as an observer, and it is otherwise. They will have to have a funding drive, which is going to be like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

Ten years ago, I visited this church as a guest, and the church was packed full of people. I don't know what's happened to it. Ever since COVID, I have been told, the number of attendants has gone down dramatically. It's almost like maybe the demographics of the entire area I live in (Central Florida, South East Orlando) has changed, or perhaps many, many people have just stopped going to church. Not only have we had COVID to deal with, but we've had two really big hurricanes since them. Maybe the people just left.

 

[PloverWing]

A church to which Sweet Lori and I were called for some years (I play piano and keys, she sings), was a case well in your point. There were a few who understood, but almost all of the oldest generation flatly refused to come to the sanctuary (using the chair-lift which was installed when we were there), preferring to sit and sleep downstairs in their room; and most of the next generation was characterized by one brave enough to speak up in Sunday school, asking the pastor "Why don't you get more normal people for our church?"

A little off-topic, but I'm not following this part of your story. What is "their room"? Do you mean a Sunday School room, or is this an apartment complex of some kind? (If the people don't want to attend the worship service, I don't understand why they don't just go home, or maybe stay home in the first place.)

It also sounds like the sanctuary isn't easily handicapped-accessible, outside of the chair lift. Is it on the second floor? Is it wheelchair-accessible from the outside, or do you have to go through the "downstairs" to get to it?

Sorry, I'm just really not following the layout of the building.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

A little off-topic, but I'm not following this part of your story. What is "their room"? Do you mean a Sunday School room, or is this an apartment complex of some kind? (If the people don't want to attend the worship service, I don't understand why they don't just go home, or maybe stay home in the first place.)

Perfectly reasonable question They had a room of their own.

It also sounds like the sanctuary isn't easily handicapped-accessible, outside of the chair lift. Is it on the second floor? Is it wheelchair-accessible from the outside, or do you have to go through the "downstairs" to get to it?

The sanctuary was built in the 1920's, upstairs.

Sorry, I'm just really not following the layout of the building.

Quite a few older churches were built vaguely this way, in this part of the world An elevator really would have bankrupted us and then some, as there was no structural space inside for it at all. Think of the sanctuary as a huge bowl the length and width of the building, sitting on top of the first floor. It was a very nice chairlift indeed.

 

[FireDragon76]

Perfectly reasonable question They had a room of their own.

The sanctuary was built in the 1920's, upstairs.

Quite a few older churches were built this way, in this part of the world

In downtown Orlando, the Antiochian Orthodox church of St. George is in what used to be a Christian Science temple. It's a beautiful building that has been redone with stained glass windows, mosaics, and a huge dome, but you have to walk up stairs to get into the narthex (what Protestants would call "the sanctuary").