Is the Rapture credible?

[Xeno.of.athens]

He translated it into Latin 1650 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

It was translated into English almost 500 years ago. . .you got a copy of that version?

You repeated your post.

 

[BobRyan]

The concept of the "rapture" is one that's often discussed in Christian theology, particularly among certain Protestant denominations.

No wonder they teach the rapture - it is in the Bible

1 Thess 4:13-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24:29-31 - after the tribulation ... they see the Son of man coming in the clouds.. sends out His angels to gather His elect from one end of the SKY to the other.

Looks like rapture, sounds like rapture. is rapture

It refers to a belief that faithful Christians will be taken up to heaven

before a period of tribulation on Earth.

or as Matt 24:29-31 says "After the tribulation"

This idea is primarily derived from a few key passages in the New Testament

Indeed... Bible details

One of the main scriptures cited to support the belief in a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how "the dead in Christ will rise first" and how believers "will be caught up together... to meet the Lord in the air." The phrase "caught up" is often translated from the Greek word "harpazo," which means to seize or snatch away, and this is where the term "rapture" originates.

The Latin is "Rapturo"

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Another passage frequently mentioned is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which speaks of a mystery where believers will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" at the last trumpet.

Yep.

That trumpet is in Matt 24:29-31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16

These verses have been interpreted as describing an instantaneous transformation and ascension of believers.

1 Cor 15 says it happens in an instant
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

However, it's worth noting that the exact term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible

not the english word.

But the Latin in 1 Thess 4 for "caught up" is "rapturo"

 

[BobRyan]

Both biblically and historically the "catching up/away" was not called "rapture". It was called "second coming".

John 14:1-3 "I will come again" -- so then "second coming"
1 Thess 4;13-18 "rapturo' -- rapture -- "caught up"

 

[BobRyan]

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Given such passages as this, I wouldn't say we as born again Christians are destined to suffer the wrath of GOD during a tribulation.

Is salvation a bed of comfort and ease?

Mat 5:11 LSB “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Mat 5:44 LSB “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 10:23 LSB “But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Mat 23:34 LSB “On account of this, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Luk 21:12 LSB “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.
Joh 15:20 LSB “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
Act 7:52 LSB “And which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
Rom 12:14 LSB Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse.
Gal 1:13 LSB For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

you are both right.

"in this world you HAVE TRIBULATION" - John 16:33 - but it is not because God is pouring out His wrath on saints.

Noah went through tribulation - but it was not because God poured out His wrath on Noah.

Israel was spared the last 7 plagues of the 10 Plagues in Egypt - while still IN Egypt.

So the saints get pounded on by the world, the wicked etc... but not by God.

 

[BobRyan]

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Given such passages as this, I wouldn't say we as born again Christians are destined to suffer the wrath of GOD during a tribulation.

We are not destined to suffer the wrath of God any more than God was pouring out His wrath on Israel. They were protected while still IN Egypt.

 

[BobRyan]

So, you are thinking of "the tribulation" as the wrath of God poured out on sinners?

The tribulation in John 16:33 is the wicked attacking the saints as we see in Dan 7, and Rev 12 and ...
But Rev 16 and also the 7 last plagues in Egypt is a case of God pouring out His wrath on the wicked while protecting the saints

 

[Clare73]

yes and yes.

And that is where it is found. . .

 

[Clare73]

No wonder they teach the rapture - it is in the Bible
1 Thess 4:13-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Matt 24:29-31 - after the tribulation ... they see the Son of man coming in the clouds.. sends out His angels to gather His elect from one end of the SKY to the other.
Looks like rapture, sounds like rapture. is rapture



or as Matt 24:29-31 says "After the tribulation"

Indeed... Bible details

The Latin is "Rapturo"

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Yep.

That trumpet is in Matt 24:29-31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16

1 Cor 15 says it happens in an instant
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”


not the english word.

But the Latin in 1 Thess 4 for "caught up" is "rapturo"

At least that is the word Jerome chose.

I think I would have stayed with "catching up."

 

[Dan Perez]

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

AND IN 2 Thess 2:3 we the Greek word APOSTASTA meaning DEPARTURE , should come FIRST // PROPOS !!

Then in 1 Thess 4:17 we see the Enlish word CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO at te same time with them in CLOUDS for a

MEETING of the LORD into the AIR , and so we will be with at ALL TIMES with the LORD .

We do not NEED a CORRUPTED word not found in the KJV .

Just look at Gal 1:4 at the word RESCUE // EXAIREO and means to PLUCK OUT

Then their is the word COMING // PAROUSIA in 2 Thess 2:1 of our Lord Jesus Christ , even OUR GATHERING

TOGETHER UNTO HIM ,

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

Ya think? In what English translation of the Vulgate does that happen? None that I can find.

(4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
1Th 4:16-17 DRB

Nope, not a word about any rapture.

AND IN 2 Thess 2:3 we the Greek word APOSTASTA meaning DEPARTURE , should come FIRST // PROPOS !!

Then in 1 Thess 4:17 we see the Enlish word CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO at te same time with them in CLOUDS for a

MEETING of the LORD into the AIR , and so we will be with at ALL TIMES with the LORD .

We do not NEED a CORRUPTED word not found in the KJV .

Just look at Gal 1:4 at the word RESCUE //

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1 Thess 4:13-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There ain't no "rapture" in there.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And that is where it is found. . .

You claimed that it was Rapture in English and it isn't; not in any English translation translated from the Latin!

 

[BobRyan]

No wonder they teach the rapture - it is in the Bible

1 Thess 4:13-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24:29-31 - after the tribulation ... they see the Son of man coming in the clouds.. sends out His angels to gather His elect from one end of the SKY to the other.

Looks like rapture, sounds like rapture. is rapture



or as Matt 24:29-31 says "After the tribulation"

Indeed... Bible details

The Latin is "Rapturo"

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (rapturo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

But the Latin in 1 Thess 4 for "caught up" is "rapturo"

There ain't no "rapture" in there.

If you are looking for the original manuscript source text to be in English -- then I agree, the english word Rapture is not in either Greek manuscripts or Latin texts.

But your own posts admit that the concept need to be an english manuscript , rather the "teaching".

You begin with this

The concept of the "rapture" is one that's often discussed in Christian theology, particularly among certain Protestant denominations. It refers to a belief that faithful Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. This idea is primarily derived from a few key passages in the New Testament, though interpretations vary widely.

and those key passages include --

One of the main scriptures cited to support the belief in a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how "the dead in Christ will rise first" and how believers "will be caught up together... to meet the Lord in the air." The phrase "caught up" is often translated from the Greek word "harpazo," which means to seize or snatch away, and this is where the term "rapture" originates.

and from the Latin "Rapturo" -- where the English has "caught up"


And of course Matt 24 says that after the tribulation ... He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[Clare73]

You claimed that it was Rapture in English and it isn't; not in any English translation translated from the Latin!

Previously addressed. . .review it again.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Previously addressed. . .review it again.

No. I will cease responding to your posts on this matter now.

 

[Dan Perez]

We are not destined to suffer the wrath of God any more than God was pouring out His wrath on Israel. They were protected while still IN Egypt.

And a E W BULLINGER , publishef a book on just NUMERS in the bible in 1916 .

The number 10 means to completing one order commencind a new one .!!

It begins with number ONE --666

dan p

 

[BobRyan]

And a E W BULLINGER , publishef a book on just NUMERS in the bible in 1916 .

The number 10 means to completing one order commencind a new one .!!

It begins with number ONE --666

dan p

???

 

[Jermayn]

The concept of the "rapture" is one that's often discussed in Christian theology, particularly among certain Protestant denominations. It refers to a belief that faithful Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on Earth. This idea is primarily derived from a few key passages in the New Testament, though interpretations vary widely.

One of the main scriptures cited to support the belief in a rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which describes how "the dead in Christ will rise first" and how believers "will be caught up together... to meet the Lord in the air." The phrase "caught up" is often translated from the Greek word "harpazo," which means to seize or snatch away, and this is where the term "rapture" originates.

Another passage frequently mentioned is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which speaks of a mystery where believers will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" at the last trumpet. These verses have been interpreted as describing an instantaneous transformation and ascension of believers.

However, it's worth noting that the exact term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, and the belief in a rapture as it's commonly understood today largely stems from interpretations popularised in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially through dispensationalist theology. Other Christians interpret these passages differently and may view them as metaphorical or as describing events at Christ's second coming.

Whether the rapture has a credible scriptural basis depends on one's theological perspective and how these passages are interpreted. Some believers see it as a clear promise, while others consider it a more modern doctrinal development.

I personally think these verses are describing what will happen upon Jesus' return. I guess that's call post-trib?

 

[BobRyan]

I personally think these verses are describing what will happen upon Jesus' return. I guess that's call post-trib?

Matt 24:29 "immediately after the tribulation...

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[Dan Perez]

No wonder they teach the rapture - it is in the Bible

1 Thess 4:13-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24:29-31 - after the tribulation ... they see the Son of man coming in the clouds.. sends out His angels to gather His elect from one end of the SKY to the other.

Looks like rapture, sounds like rapture. is rapture



or as Matt 24:29-31 says "After the tribulation"

Indeed... Bible details

The Latin is "Rapturo"

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Yep.

That trumpet is in Matt 24:29-31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16

1 Cor 15 says it happens in an instant
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”


not the english word.

But the Latin in 1 Thess 4 for "caught up" is "rapturo"

AND I happen to knoe it is NOT rapture as CAIGHT AWALY , is the Greek word HAPPAZO , so check the GREEK TEXT

and see !

dan p