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The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

Eternally Grateful

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So you agree that atonement is limited in regards to those who have already been already condemned by God?
At the time jesus spoke these words. I was not born yet. I was still condemned, until i repented and did what jesus said, looked to the cross in faith and recieved his gift of salvation.

so condemnation is not eternal until we die.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What is it that god forknew?

It is the will of God that whoever sees and believes.

he knew his will. And who would recieve, and chose that they would be conformed to his image
Except Jesus said that many will believe and fall away and only those who endure to the end will be saved. I know you’ll try to throw 1 John 2:19 at this and say that they never believed but that contradicts what Jesus said, that they did in fact believe. I addressed this in the post you replied to and you still ignored it. So your conclusion is unbiblical.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Atonement for sin is eternal

atonment from unbelief is impossible. Unless one repent and believe

at the great white throne no one will be judged for sin, they will be judged for their works and found lacking.

they will suffer the second death, because they did not believe, and because they did not believe, their name was blotted out
I don’t think anyone’s name will be blotted out of the book of life because they were written in it according to God’s foreknowledge. It just doesn’t make sense to me that God would write someone’s name in the book of life before creation knowing that they will fall away because if any blotting out was done it would’ve been done before creation. So it wouldn’t make sense to write their name in before they were created before they believed then blot their name out before they were created as well. Doesn’t make sense to me.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I am, I have no idea who you are talking about

every name was written when Christ died. If they die having not recieved his grace gift. Their name is blotted out

lol.. God chose or predestined to conform them to the image of God. Because of his forknowledge (he knew who would come to him by name )
No, the names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Mercy Shown

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Yeah, this is one of those passages that has caused a lot of tension in theological discussions. In Reformed theology, the understanding is that people who 'fall away' (like in Hebrews 6) were never truly saved to begin with. The key distinction is that they may have experienced many aspects of salvation—like being enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift, and even partaking in the Holy Spirit—but they were never truly regenerated by the Spirit. Their experience might look like salvation on the surface, but it’s not the real deal.
Wouldn’t that be reasoning from the conclusion?
One way to think about it is what Jesus said in Matthew 7:22-23: 'Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."' Jesus makes it clear that not everyone who experiences signs of divine power is actually saved. They can participate in spiritual things, but that doesn't mean they’ve been truly transformed or regenerated.
Hebrews clearly says that they were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. If they were never truly saved then what is it that they are falling away from?
As for 1 Corinthians 2:14, I think it's important to understand that total depravity means the natural man is totally incapable of understanding or receiving the things of God apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. So the people described in Hebrews 6 might have had some external experiences, but without the inner transformation of the Holy Spirit, they were still spiritually dead. They were never truly part of the elect, even if they seemed to be in some ways. It's like they were close, but not quite there—like the parable of the seeds in Matthew 13, where some fall on rocky ground and sprout quickly, but wither because they don’t have deep roots.
Man is born totally depraved but is made alive in Christ. “In Christ, shall all be made alive.” Sadly, some return to the “flesh pots of Egypt.” Because they love darkness more than light.

When God enlightens a man He gives them free will to choose to submit or resist.
So in short, they didn't fall away from salvation because they were never truly saved in the first place. The falling away is just proof that they weren't truly in Christ, despite appearances. Calvin would say that the elect are preserved by God’s grace, and those who fall away never had that secure saving faith to begin with."
This is circular reasoning.
By weaving together the distinction between external experience and true regeneration, I think this would help clarify the paradox.
I think it is arguing from the conclusion.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I don’t think anyone’s name will be blotted out of the book of life because they were written in it according to God’s foreknowledge. It just doesn’t make sense to me that God would write someone’s name in the book of life before creation knowing that they will fall away because if any blotting out was done it would’ve been done before creation. So it wouldn’t make sense to write their name in before they were created before they believed then blot their name out before they were created as well. Doesn’t make sense to me.
Yet the word of God says names can be blotted out
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yet the word of God says names can be blotted out
I think that’s just a way of conveying the idea that what we do now dictates whether or not our name will be in the book of life to people who didn’t know when the names were written in it. When the names were written in the book of life wasn’t revealed in scripture until after Christ’s resurrection.
 
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Strong in Him

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Hebrew 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This passage seems to put a dagger into the argument that a save person cannot ever be lost for it describes a person who was enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partaker of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. To most of us, that sounds like a saved person, Hebrew 6:4-6
Maybe, if we are reading it out of context and don't understand what was going on at the time. I read it that way for years.

The letter was written to a church which had Jewish and Gentile believers. It hadn't yet faced persecution, Hebrews 12:5, but it was thought that persecution of Christians was coming.
The Jewish believers could have escaped this persecution by saying "we're Jewish" and going back to the synagogues, and it seemed that some were considering that. But the only way to be accepted again by the synagogues and their fellow Jews was if they publicly declared that they had made a mistake and that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Messiah. They may also have had to recommit to the law. These Jewish Christians, it seems, were planning to repent (again) and go back to Christianity once they were no longer under persecution.
The writer of Hebrews is saying that that was not possible to reject Jesus, to save their own lives, and then rededicate themselves to him when it was safe to do so - because they had accepted Jesus as Lord, received his grace, his blessings and his Spirit. That would be like throwing it back in his face. It doesn't say so here, but Jesus warned that a person who loved his own life would lose it. He also said that a person would be blessed if they were persecuted for the sake of the Gospel and warned that if anyone started to plough a field and then looked back, they were not fit for the kingdom of God. It seems to be the wilful, calculated rejection of Jesus and everything he had done for them - just in the hope of saving themselves from physical discomfort - that is so serious.

In my view, it is NOT saying that any Christian who backslides, doubts or falls away cannot be saved again.
God gives second, third, thirty-third and many other besides, chances. He forgives more than 70x7.
To most of us, that sounds like a saved person, but as one reformed saint explained to me, these people were never saved in the first place. When I asked how he knew this, he replied, "Because they fell away."
I don't agree with that.
Apart from human frailty and weakness, Christians can be hit by depression just like anyone else. I believe only the Lord knows if someone has truly rejected him - and their motives for doing so.
So we have two conflicting statements. When I combine his two arguments, I have a paradox. Either these people were saved and fell away from it, or they were never saved and yet were able to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, and taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, all of which seem to be denied possible to a lost person according to1 Corinthians 2:14.
I believe the writer of Hebrews was warning Jewish Christians not to be tempted to reject their new faith and take the easy way out. Saying, "oh it's ok; I'll repent and accept Jesus again afterwards", would have been like trampling him underfoot; crucifying him again, Hebrews 6:6. Treating a holy God in such a manner, would be serious.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Congratulations, You just proved what I was saying

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

who is us? the church.




yes, and those specific people he called antichrists. and he defined them, it is those who deny christ.


I don;t need to read what paul said, Either john was right, or John lied.

The bible can not contradict itself. John can not say one thing, Then paul say somethign else contrary to what John said and vise versa

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

1, If we endure we will raign

2. If we deny, he will deny

3. If we become faithless. he will remain faithful. for he can not deny himself

Deny and faithless are two different things.

To deny, you reject him totally. You deny he even exists.

To be faithless is to lack faith in areas of our lives. But it does not mean we deny him.

He can not deny himself. the promise of eternal life is on him, and his promise, he he takes back eternal life. he in effect deny's himself. because he could not keep his promise
You really should look up the definition of the Greek word translated to faithless in that passage. It literally means the exact opposite of believing.
 
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Dan Perez

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Red herring. . .

Do you get much exercise jumping to conclusions?

Your response falls somewhat short of addressing the Scriptures presented.
And all of Hebrews was written to Israel , period !

And 1 Cor 5:1-5 explains why no one who is a believer saved by GRACE will never loose their salvation .

That assembly refused to judge that believer .

And since they would not JUDGE him , Paul judged him and TURNED him to Satan for the DEATH of tje flesh

in order that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS , OSAS .

QUESTION for you where does the spirit GO after his DEATH ??

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And all of Hebrews was written to Israel , period !
Below are the introductory notes from Haydock's Bible:
Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary
George Haydock (1774-1849) was a priest from a noble English Catholic family who would later become a Bible scholar. In 1811 he produced an extended commentary to the Douay-Rheims Bible. His general plan was to give the original understanding of the text that had been passed down by the church fathers and preserved in the Catholic church. The commentary became the most popular English Catholic Bible commentary of its time in the English speaking world.


Hebrews
INTRODUCTION

The Catholic Church hath received and declared this Epistle to be part of the Canonical Scriptures of the New Testament, though some doubted of it in the first ages [centuries], especially in the Latin Church, witness St. Jerome on the 8th chap. of Isaias; Luther and most of his followers reject it, but the Calvinists and the Church of England have received it. Others, who received this Epistle in the first ages [centuries], doubted whether it was written by St. Paul, but thought it was written by St. Barnabas, or by St. Clement, or St. Luke, or at least that St. Paul only furnished the matter and the order of it, and that St. Luke wrote it, and St. Paul afterwards read it and approved it.

It was doubted again, whether this Epistle was first written in Hebrew (that is, in Syro-Chaldaic, then spoken by the Jews) or in Greek, as Estius pretends. The ancient writers say it was written in Hebrew, but that it was very soon after translated into Greek either by St. Luke or St. Clement, pope and martyr. Cornelius a Lapide thinks the Syriac which we have in the Polyglot to have been the original; but this is commonly rejected. See Tillemont on St. Paul, Art. 46, and note 72; P. Alleman on the first to the Hebrews, &c.

St. Paul wrote this letter about the year 63, and either at Rome or in Italy. See Chap. 12:24

He wrote it to the Christians in Palestine, who had most of them been Jews before. This seems the reason why he puts not his name to it, nor calls himself their apostle, his name being rather odious to the Jews, and because he was chosen to be the apostle of the Gentiles.

The main design is to shew that every one’s justification and salvation is to be hoped for by the grace and merits of Christ, and not from the law of Moses, as he had shewn in his Epistles to the Galatians and the Romans, where we many observe this kind of difference:
  • To the Galatians he shews, that true justice cannot be had from circumcision and the ceremonies of the law:
  • to the Romans, that even the moral precepts and works of the law were insufficient without the grace of Christ: and in this to the Hebrews, he shews that our justice could not be had from the sacrifices of the old law.

As to the chief contents:
He exhorts them to the faith of Christ, by shewing his dignity and pre-eminence above the Angels, and above Moses, Chap. i, ii, iii.; that Christ’s priesthood was above that of Aaron, from the 4th to the 8th chap. ver. 6; that the new law and testament is preferable to the old, form thence to the middle of chap. x.; he commends faith by the example of the ancient Fathers, Chap. xi. and in the beginning of the twelfth; then he exhorts them to patience, constancy, brotherly love, &c. The like exhortations are mixed in other parts of this Epistle. (Witham)​

--- We must here remark, that our separated brethren, relying solely upon tradition, admit in general this Epistle into their canon of Scriptures, though they are necessitated to allow that for some centuries great doubts were entertained on the subject.
According to Mr. Rogers, in his Defence of the Thirty-nine Articles, whilst several among the Protestants have rejected as apocryphal the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the 2nd and 3rd of John, and Jude, others have as strenuously maintained that they ought to be admitted into the sacred canon.​

The Catholic Church admits them as deutero-canonical books, and of equal authority with the proto-canonical books....After the arguments had been justly weighed on both sides, they seem to have been admitted by the general consent of the Latin Church, as they had all along been admitted by the Greek Church.​

The canon, as it now stands, both of the Old and New Testament, we find enumerated in Pope Innocent’s letter to Exuperius, bishop of Toulouse, an. 405 [the year A.D. 405], in St. Augustine, (lib. ii. de doct. christ. chap. viii.) and in the decrees of an African Council, an. 419 [the year A.D. 419], consisting of 217 bishops, who declare that in giving a catalogue of the Holy Scriptures, they only confirm and ratify what they have received from their Fathers. This canon is attributed to the third Council of Carthage, an. 397 [the year A.D. 397].​

Dr. Cosin, an eminent Protestant divine, tells us in his canon of Scripture, p. 4, "that to know the books of Scripture, there is no safer course to be taken than to follow the public voice and the universal testimony of the Church." The sixth of the thirty-nine articles gives a similar rule, which excludes private judgment. And "what is this," asks Hooker, "but to acknowledge ecclesiastical tradition?"​

The mind of man, naturally fickle and unsettled, stands in need of a guide in the road to eternal life. I shall never hesitate, says a spirited author, to take for my guide the Catholic Church, which contains in herself the authority of past and future ages.​
The Syriac version of the Old and New Testament, which is deservedly allowed to be of greatest antiquity and authority, comprises the same deutero-canonical books as the canon of the Council of Trent; a convincing proof that the Church of Syria, immediately after the times of the apostles, considered them as part of the sacred canon, no less than the Catholics of the present day.​
For a very satisfactory account respecting the authenticity and inspiration of this Epistle, as also for an excellent commentary with notes moral, doctrinal, and critical, see a late work entitled, An Explanation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews, by the Rev. Henry Rutter.​

--- What can be the reason why Protestants admit the deutero-canonical books of the New and reject those of the Old Testament? ---

This Epistle merits the particular attention of Christians of every denomination, since it points out to them their various duties in respect to the necessity of faith and the practice of a holy life. In opposition to the Socinians, it tends to shew not only the divinity of Jesus Christ, but also that his death was a true and real sacrifice of atonement for the sins of mankind. See Chap. i, ver. 5, &c.

In opposition to other sectarists, it proves that the bloody sacrifice of Christ, once offered on the cross, though a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice of redemption, does not exclude the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass, by which he is a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech. See Chap. v, &c.

It is no less applicable to Catholics, in order to confirm them in the faith once delivered to the saints, and to point out the dreadful consequences of abandoning that religion which Jesus Christ came to establish in the world. The just man lives by faith; but if he draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Let us, therefore, hold fast the confession of our hope, without wavering, or forsaking our assembly, the Catholic Church, as many have done to follow Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and other separatists. But we, says the apostle, are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them who have faith unto the saving of the soul. (Heb_10:39)

[end of quoted material.]
 
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Dan Perez

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Hebrew 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This passage seems to put a dagger into the argument that a save person cannot ever be lost for it describes a person who was enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partaker of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. To most of us, that sounds like a saved person, but as one reformed saint explained to me, these people were never saved in the first place. When I asked how he knew this, he replied, "Because they fell away."

I did not want to jump into the swirl of that circular argument so I let sleeping dogs lie. But I have thought about what he said for a long time. He was also a proponent of total depravity, often citing 1 Corinthians 2:14 in the King James Version of the Bible, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So we have two conflicting statements. When I combine his two arguments, I have a paradox. Either these people were saved and fell away from it, or they were never saved and yet were able to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, and taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, all of which seem to be denied possible to a lost person according to1 Corinthians 2:14.

Are the lost sinners who were able to understand spiritual things until they fell away, or were they saved saints until they chose to fall away? If they were lost sinners, what did they fall away from?

If John Calvin were here, I'd ask him. (If I had a fire proof suit to wear.)
Hebrew 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This passage seems to put a dagger into the argument that a save person cannot ever be lost for it describes a person who was enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partaker of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. To most of us, that sounds like a saved person, but as one reformed saint explained to me, these people were never saved in the first place. When I asked how he knew this, he replied, "Because they fell away."

I did not want to jump into the swirl of that circular argument so I let sleeping dogs lie. But I have thought about what he said for a long time. He was also a proponent of total depravity, often citing 1 Corinthians 2:14 in the King James Version of the Bible, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So we have two conflicting statements. When I combine his two arguments, I have a paradox. Either these people were saved and fell away from it, or they were never saved and yet were able to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, partake of the Holy Spirit, and taste the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, all of which seem to be denied possible to a lost person according to1 Corinthians 2:14.

Are the lost sinners who were able to understand spiritual things until they fell away, or were they saved saints until they chose to fall away? If they were lost sinners, what did they fall away from?

If John Calvin were here, I'd ask him. (If I had a fire proof suit to wear.)
And can only be PEOLES ?


# 1 It depends on who ypu believe wrote the book of HEBREWS ?

# 2 It can be the BODY of Christ !

# 3 It can be Israel !

And Paul wrote the BOOK of HRBREWS to Israel !!

AND in Acts 2:38 rejected Peter's message , period !!

# 4 In Acts 28 : 25-28 Israel was setaside and Paul went to the GENTILES and they will HEAR , and all GETILES

should be GLAD !!

dan p
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The passage at hand (Heb 5:12-6:6) has little to do with losing one's salvation. The context is doctrine and teachings. Paul is telling them they are Word Babies and need to establish a foundation based on the six doctrines listed in 6:1-2.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

He then warned them that if they fail to do so, they may be denied the ability to go on to the mature/meat doctrines.

Hebrews 6:3 KJV
3 And this will we do (go on to mature meat doctrines), if God permit.

To allow them to do so would put them in great peril. As Peter says:

2 Peter 3:16 KJV
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul then presents the hypothetical doctrinal apostasy. He shows them what would happen if they reinstated the daily sacrifice as part of the foundational doctrine of "repentance from dead works." These "dead works" are not "sins." The sacrifices of the OT are the "dead works" they needed to repent of. The passage must be read in context. And the context is word maturity.

He presents the hypothetical case:

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If they reinsert the daily sacrifice back into Christian doctrine, they would have to crucify Jesus every day! That is not going to happen. This is why he later states, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins".
 
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Strong in Him

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And Paul wrote the BOOK of HRBREWS to Israel !!
No one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews.
Many agree that it probably wasn't Paul. Some have said it could even have been Priscilla.
 
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BobRyan

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At the time jesus spoke these words. I was not born yet. I was still condemned, until i repented and did what jesus said, looked to the cross in faith and recieved his gift of salvation.

so condemnation is not eternal until we die.
I agree that condemnation is not eternal since we can always choose to accept the Gospel
 
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BobRyan

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The passage at hand (Heb 5:12-6:6) has little to do with losing one's salvation. The context is doctrine and teachings. Paul is telling them they are Word Babies and need to establish a foundation based on the six doctrines listed in 6:1-2.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

He then warned them that if they fail to do so, they may be denied the ability to go on to the mature/meat doctrines.

Hebrews 6:3 KJV
3 And this will we do


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in for God is able to graft them in again.


In Rom 11 the problem is not the unfaithfulness of God toward the gentile branch that was grafted in, rather it is the free will choice of man where we have the wide path and the narrow path to choose from.

Matt 18:32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

IN Matt 18 - the problem is not the unfaithfulness of God toward the servant that was freely "forgiven all", rather it is the free will choice of man where we have the wide path and the narrow path to choose from.
 
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BobRyan

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Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of:
  • repentance from dead works
  • and of faith toward God, 2
  • of instruction about washings
  • and laying on of hands,
  • and the resurrection of the dead
  • and eternal judgment.

3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who: (were at one time saved)
  • have once been enlightened
  • and have tasted of the heavenly gift
  • and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5
  • and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Instead of finding fault "with their former repentance" -- Paul wished he could "renew them again" to their former repentance but finds that it is impossible in the case of those who made a final and full rejection of the salvation experience that they had and were determined not to turn back ever again.

how odd then - is the response -
The passage at hand (Heb 5:12-6:6) has little to do with losing one's salvation.
 
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BobRyan

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Always? Even after death?
no not after death since as Heb 9 points out -- no changes after dying the first death. The one that all humans suffer.
 
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