Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

[BobRyan]

The part I have disagreed with is that the OT sanctuary service did not have any sort of investigation built in.

Indeed it would not be possible in the "symbolism" of atonement on the day of Atonement in Lev 23 and Lev 16. In the symbol they could not literally sit down to review each individual and each case of sin, as if the ceremonial system had such a detail record in it literally. (an obvious point I suppose but sometimes it is necessary to state the obvious)

But even so the Jews do have that concept - of judgment for the Day of Atonement. Their traditions notes that detail going back a very long way. STill it is true that I don't point to it in this thread or so then not in the first 8 posts on this thread specifically.

Yes here was a cleansing and the sins were transferred to the scapegoat. But there was no investigation. After the 2300 days, the sanctuary was to be "cleansed." How does that get translated into "investigation"?

If you look at the first 8 posts I don't clam that the sanctuary had investigation in it - I get the investigative pre-advent judgment from Dan 7 . IT is all right there even without talking about the Dan 8 sanctuary aspect.

Furthermore, if the process of investigating started in 1844, then what kind of slow computers are they running in heaven? It doesn't make sense to think that some book or record of a persons life is opened and slowly scanned through before reaching a decision. Any investigation would be instantly concluded.

Is it your POV that all the myriads and myriads in the open-books court-room of Dan 7 - are of almost infinite-god-like presence and can the life of billions and billions of people over the span of 6000 years such that they can instantly reach their decisions?

If anything -- it appears to me that the time is not nearly enough.

And Jesus describes judging people, separating sheep from goats, after His second coming. That would seem to be a different judgment from the one outlined in Daniel.

Dan 7 says that the judgment spoken of must complete before the saints are released from persecution and prior to the second coming.
Jesus speaks of a judgment at the end where no saints are persecuted during that judgment (unlike what Jesus describes).

In Rev 22 Jesus says that when He comes His reward is with him. A completed judgment for the saints and rewards already assignable as in the Dan 7 does match what Jesus says in Rev 22.

And lastly, 1 Cor 6:3 says that humans will be part of the judging process.

Rev 20 says the same thing. So also Rev 3.

The Dan 7 pre-advent judgment is before the Rev 20 judgment that begins with the start of the millennium.

The Dan 7 judgment would be prior to the appearing of Christ - and while saints are still persecuted.

Is this going to be yet another judgement done after the second coming?

Yes the Rev 20 judgment vs 3-5 that happens during the 1000 years is not the same as the Dan 7 judgement and is not the same as the Rev 20 Great White throne judgment described as occurring after the 1000 years..

1. The Dan 7 judgment "passed in favor of the saints" vs 22 - must complete before the appearing - where saints are raised and rewards given.
2. The Rev 20:2-5 judgment assigning the penalty owed by the wicked to each case - must complete before the lake of fire event and great white throne judgment later in that same chapter
3. The Great White throne judgment where the lost are themselves included in that review of the books for their cases - such that in the end as Phil 2 says "every knee will bow" before Christ - in heaven and on Earth.

Best wishes
KT

P.S. I haven't had time to read all the comments yet, so I apologize if I am repeating things.

If you have read the first 8 posts I think you have a good foundation for the position being proposed in this thread.

 

[KevinT]

Yes the Rev 20 judgment vs 3-5 that happens during the 1000 years is not the same as the Dan 7 judgement and is not the same as the Rev 20 Great White throne judgment described as occurring after the 1000 years..

1. The Dan 7 judgment "passed in favor of the saints" vs 22 - must complete before the appearing - where saints are raised and rewards given.
2. The Rev 20:2-5 judgment assigning the penalty owed by the wicked to each case - must complete before the lake of fire event and great white throne judgment later in that same chapter
3. The Great White throne judgment where the lost are themselves included in that review of the books for their cases - such that in the end as Phil 2 says "every knee will bow" before Christ - in heaven and on Earth.

If you have read the first 8 posts I think you have a good foundation for the position being proposed in this thread.

I have read the first 8 posts and I agree that there are judgements described in the various locations given above. I am just concerned that over-precison is being given the proposed timeline. When Jesus described that He would separate the sheep from the goats, there is no way to place that before or after another event. So there is room for interpretation or "wiggle room." Yes, Dan 7 does give a before and after, so it is reasonable to have a rough timeline. But one needs to be flexible.

Furthermore, I feel that "judgement" might be misinterpreted at times. The most obvious way to think of this is as a court room, with a judge carefully considering one thing at a time, and then moving on to the next case. But God can be massively parallel, to use the analogy of modern computers. Consider all the people before the flood. They did not listen to Noah or enter the boat, so when the flood came, instantly all of them were effectively judged all at once--it was the circumstances that sealed the fate. And since all the world and universe is the outworking of God's physical laws, it is true that this is the judgement of God. In the same way, one can say that person running with scissors is "judged" by God when they fall and stab themselves accidentally. A less crazy example would be the wise and foolish virgins. They all went out to the wedding, but when they were not ready to walk in the door with the bridegroom, and the door was shut, at that point they were judged to not be part of the wedding party.

So when I read about judgement being passed in favor of the saints in Dan 7, I don't necessarily feel this has to mean the court room type review, and think it could be more the Noah type of judgement.

One last thing is that the OT talked about the Messiah coming with power and splitting mountains in two etc. That didn't happen, and in retrospect we realize that there was a PAST coming of the Messiah and also a FUTURE 2nd coming of the Messiah, and the OT prophecies were mixing these together. But still, all prophecies are conditional. God describes His plans, but there are many many examples of His people not doing their part, and then the plans fail. So every prophecy in Daniel and Revelation must be seen as God's plans rather than a glimpse into an unchangeable future set in stone. My point is that we should realize that we don't want to fall into the trap of the Pharisees who rejected Jesus because He didn't come in a manner that they felt was so clearly laid out in scripture.

Best wishes,

KT

 

[BobRyan]

I have read the first 8 posts and I agree that there are judgements described in the various locations given above. I am just concerned that over-precison is being given the proposed timeline.

Also note that the teaching that Yom Kippur (the day of atonement service) is a day of Judgment - goes back many centuries before the SDA denomination came into being.

When Jesus described that He would separate the sheep from the goats, there is no way to place that before or after another event.

I agree. But Jesus Himself makes it clear that the rapture happens when He appears as we see in John 14:2-3 and Matt 24:29-31.

He does not indicate that there is a case of 100's of years spent at the second coming to evaluate all the saints.
Scripture tells us that the judgment "is passed in favor of the saints" before the coming of Christ - in Dan 7:22. Not "just the saints alive at Christ's return" and so -- it is all saints of all time.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

IF as you say - that same thing happens again at Christ's appearing - then they would seem to have no purpose.

In 2 Peter 3 - the "day of the Lord" event when Christ comes and the earth is burned with fire -- spans 1000 years.

Yes, Dan 7 does give a before and after, so it is reasonable to have a rough timeline.

And it makes sense that the only judgment of the saints that is possible - while at the same time saints are being persecuted - just as Dan 7 points out - is the pre-advent one in Dan 7 -- since it makes no sense that Jesus shows up with an army of angels then has the saints being persecuted while His court sits in judgement.

Furthermore, I feel that "judgement" might be misinterpreted at times. The most obvious way to think of this is as a court room, with a judge carefully considering one thing at a time, and then moving on to the next case. But God can be massively parallel, to use the analogy of modern computers.

Indeed.

But our argument has never been that the judgment is for God to sit down and figure something out. Rather He has known all things from eternity past. Our point is the Dan 7 case where there is an entire court room of non-god finite beings going through the books of heaven in whatever form that might be.

Consider all the people before the flood. They did not listen to Noah or enter the boat, so when the flood came, instantly all of them were effectively judged all at once--it was the circumstances that sealed the fate.

Indeed and billions of people have died since then as well. But death is not the point of final judgment in either of those cases. Heb 9 says "it is appointed unto man once to die AND THEN comes the judgment" - making it clear that simply dying is not it.

So when I read about judgement being passed in favor of the saints in Dan 7, I don't necessarily feel this has to mean the court room type review, and think it could be more the Noah type of judgement.

Noah's case does not involve a courtroom of non-god beings going through the books and passing judgment on each individual.

One last thing is that the OT talked about the Messiah coming with power and splitting mountains in two etc. That didn't happen

Agreed. That has not yet happened. But it will

 

[The Liturgist]

Also note that the teaching that Yom Kippur (the day of atonement service) is a day of Judgment - goes back many centuries before the SDA denomination came into being.

Yom Kippur is not in and of itself a day of judgement, and furthermore, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has atoned for all of our sins, which has rendered the Day of Atonement obsolete. Christians now celebrate the Day of the Resurrection.

 

[KevinT]

Noah's case does not involve a courtroom of non-god beings going through the books and passing judgment on each individual.

Agreed. That has not yet happened. But it will

Bob, the Spirit gives different gifts to different people. I think He has given the passion for this issue to you, but not to me. I will try to keep my mind open, but for right now, I don't see a benefit for me to hammer out an exact timeline -- because ultimately I think God will do something that surprises us all.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[BobRyan]

Yom Kippur is not in and of itself a day of judgement

What Happens on Erev Yom Kippur, the Night Before the Holiday? | My Jewish Learning

Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement, and the Day of Judgment, is devoted completely to communal repentance ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

"Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement, and the Day of Judgment, is devoted completely to communal repentance for sins committed over the course of the previous year. From sundown to sundown"

, and furthermore, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has atoned for all of our sins

True.

And during the daily service - atonement was already made. But then came Yom Kippur at the end of the year. The day of judgment and atonement.

, which has rendered the Day of Atonement obsolete.

Each of the Lev 23 annual holy days is the shadow of a later event. The spring feasts are shadows of events related to the first coming of Christ.
The fall Holy days point to events at/near the second coming.

Christians now celebrate the Day of the Resurrection.

A Bible text that says first century Christians met every week day one for worship , to commemorate the resurrection etc would have been helpful for your claim just then.

You may find that "optional" but a lot of us care about that kind of detail.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What Happens on Erev Yom Kippur, the Night Before the Holiday? | My Jewish Learning

Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement, and the Day of Judgment, is devoted completely to communal repentance ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

"Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement, and the Day of Judgment, is devoted completely to communal repentance for sins committed over the course of the previous year. From sundown to sundown"

True.

And during the daily service - atonement was already made. But then came Yom Kippur at the end of the year. The day of judgment and atonement.

Each of the Lev 23 annual holy days is the shadow of a later event. The spring feasts are shadows of events related to the first coming of Christ.
The fall Holy days point to events at/near the second coming.



A Bible text that says first century Christians met every week day one for worship , to commemorate the resurrection etc would have been helpful for your claim just then.

You may find that "optional" but a lot of us care about that kind of detail.

They met every day, celebrating the Eucharist and feasting upon the Bread of Life; our Lord's very body and blood. The first day of the week was a celebration and commemoration of our Lord's rising; as are all the other days of the week. The prophesies are fulfilled as our Lord has atoned for us all.

I agree that the Jewish festivals and commemorations either proceed from or foreshadow events past and future, but in and of themselves there is no merit in them. They are of zero sacramental value.

 

[The Liturgist]

They met every day, celebrating the Eucharist and feasting upon the Bread of Life; our Lord's very body and blood. The first day of the week was a celebration and commemoration of our Lord's rising; as are all the other days of the week. The prophesies are fulfilled as our Lord has atoned for us all.

I agree that the Jewish festivals and commemorations either proceed from or foreshadow events past and future, but in and of themselves there is no merit in them. They are of zero sacramental value.

Very true. For example, the celebration of Pascha was typologically prophesied by the Passover, which indeed is why the Feast of the Resurrection is known as Pascha (a Hellenization of the word “Pesach” which means the Passover) and also as Easter.

Another example would be Pentecost - this was originally a Jewish feast, on the 49th day after Pascha, but became a very important Christian feast because, appropriately enough, it was on that feast that God the Holy Spirit entered into the Twelve (including St. Matthias the Apostle, who had been ordained to replace Judas Iscariot). Indeed it is traditional to decorate the church with greenery on Pentecost, and likewise the Jews do this in their synagogues (indeed the decoration of the church in this manner, with tongues of wheat, symbolizing the tongues of fire, is why in Anglicanism and in English Pentecost was for many years referred to mainly as Whitsunday).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Very true. For example, the celebration of Pascha was typologically prophesied by the Passover, which indeed is why the Feast of the Resurrection is known as Pascha (a Hellenization of the word “Pesach” which means the Passover) and also as Easter.

Another example would be Pentecost - this was originally a Jewish feast, on the 49th day after Pascha, but became a very important Christian feast because, appropriately enough, it was on that feast that God the Holy Spirit entered into the Twelve (including St. Matthias the Apostle, who had been ordained to replace Judas Iscariot). Indeed it is traditional to decorate the church with greenery on Pentecost, and likewise the Jews do this in their synagogues (indeed the decoration of the church in this manner, with tongues of wheat, symbolizing the tongues of fire, is why in Anglicanism and in English Pentecost was for many years referred to mainly as Whitsunday).

Whitsunday for us also in the Historic 1 year Lectionary. We borrowed a lot from the BoCP; as Cranmer borrowed a lot from us to create his BoCP in the first place. It is so comforting to see how that thread of faith persists in the historic observations of the Church Catholic.

 

[BobRyan]

They met every day, celebrating the Eucharist

True - but no focus on "Week day 1" in that case.

The first day of the week was a celebration and commemoration of our Lord's rising;

Not according to the NT.

In fact the Eucharist "proclaims the Lord's death until He comes" -- (So that would be Friday)

1 Cor 11:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

as are all the other days of the week. The prophesies are fulfilled as our Lord has atoned for us all.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Heavens and New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

 

[The Liturgist]

Whitsunday for us also in the Historic 1 year Lectionary. We borrowed a lot from the BoCP; as Cranmer borrowed a lot from us to create his BoCP in the first place. It is so comforting to see how that thread of faith persists in the historic observations of the Church Catholic.

Amen to that.

I like calling Pentecost Sunday Whitsunday a great deal, as I find the name charming. Also, it can avoid confusion with the Feast of Pentecost itself, which is on the Monday immediately following Whitsunday (the Orthodox celebrate both events back to back, with Pentecost Monday being specifically the Feast of the Holy Spirit, but on the Sunday before it, the descent of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Trinity and the Great Commission are all celebrated.

Also, Whitsunday is a lovely name for Pentecost Sunday because of the celebration of the Great Commission that Pentecost entails, which is inherently a gathering of wheat. Wheat and grapes appear in the traditional artwork of a great many Christian traditions, for obvious iconographic reasons related to the parables spoken by our Lord.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not according to the NT.

In fact the Eucharist "proclaims the Lord's death until He comes" -- (So that would be Friday)

Actually, that’s an example of immediate eisegesis specifically within the context of the pericope, what I like to call a “chopped lection.”

Such lectionary chopping is fairly common when it comes to 1 Corinthians 11, since starting with the Roman church in 1969, and spreading to the mainline Protestant churches, the lesson for Holy Thursday was changed so that it would now end at verse 27, rather than continuing through to verse 30 or verse 34 (of the mainline churches, only the Episcopalians partially resisted this, by giving their ministers the option to read through to verse 30, until they also adopted the Revised Common Lectionary about a decade ago). The rationale for doing this appears, from what I can gather, to have been to encourage more frequent communion, since in many churches people would not partake every Sunday, if, for example, they did not feel they had prepared for the Eucharist adequately, and were historically under no pressure to do so, until the Novus Ordo Missae and like minded Protestant liturgical reforms in the late 1960s.

I assume the reason why you also terminated at verse 27 is either because your church reads this same pericope when celebrating the Eucharist, or else you looked up the Institution Narrative and found this lection, which now only the Orthodox and those Anglicans using the traditional Book of Common Prayer, and also those Catholics celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass (in which the scripture lessons are given in the vernacular, by the way; the Latin part of a traditional Latin mass consists of the hymns and psalms and antiphons and certain prayers, and translations for these are provided to everyone in attendance in my experience by making available hand missals which contain the translations of everything in the service).

At any rate, if you had continued reading past verse 27, you would find the context for that verse in the verse immediately following:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenantin my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

What we have from a plain reading of this, in accordance with tradition, which is expressly commended here and in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and in Galatians 1:8-9 and elsewhere, is the following:

- Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ broke the bread, and caused it to become His Body, and likewise made the wine His Blood, so that when He offered Himself on the Cross, and was resurrected, we would be able to partake of it, as a remembrance of His atoning sacrifice, so that, by partaking of His body, we would be joined to the Body of Christ, which is the Church (this point becomes clearer if one reads the entire epistle from beginning to end).

- When we do this, since it is a remembrance of the Sacrifice and Resurrection of our Lord, we must examine ourselves to avoid partaking of the Eucharist unworthily, or without discerning the body and blood of our Lord (verses 31-34 go on to differentiate the Eucharist from ordinary meals), since otherwise, we would be guilty of sinning against the Body and Blood of our Lord and of eating and drinking condemnation onto ourselves. For this reason, the LCMS / LCC, that being the church of our most excellent and pious friend @MarkRohfrietsch ,and the Orthodox churches, practice closed communion, so as to mitigate the risk of someone inadvertently partaking of the Eucharist unworthily and harming themselves.

Now, as I mentioned to you in another thread, I would be very interested to know the basis for which you determine whether or not you will interpret a given verse literally or metaphorically, since in the past you repeatedly have denied a literal interpretation of the Institution Narrative, despite its corroboration by John 6, which you also had an unusual non-Eucharistic interpretation of.

For all eternity after the cross in the New Heavens and New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship

This refers to the World to Come being in a state of eternal rest, when no more tears will be shed.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 11:
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

So then "in remembrance" is a memorial.
Each one can do with that text what they wish.

In John 10 "I AM the door of sheepfold" - not exactly a "wooden door"
In Matt 16 "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" did not mean 'don't buy bread from them'

I guess that is the easy part.

===================

Now back to the subject of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Yom Kippur is not in and of itself a day of judgement,

AI overview

"Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement, is a significant Jewish holy day that is also considered a day of judgment. It marks the culmination of a ten-day period of repentance that begins with Rosh Hashanah, according to many Jewish traditions. "

"In rabbinic literature, Yom Kippur is given an additional name, Yom Ha-Din (Day of Judgement). "

Yom Kippur: A Day of True Judgment - Congregation Or Ami

In case you missed my Yom Kippur morning sermon or would like to read it. Like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur has acquired a number of names and identities over time. It began with the biblical names of Yom HaKippurim (“The Day of Atonements”) and Shabbat Shabbaton (“The Sabbath of Sabbaths”). Later...

or-ami.com

"Like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur has acquired a number of names and identities over time. It began with the biblical names of Yom HaKippurim (“The Day of Atonements”) and Shabbat Shabbaton (“The Sabbath of Sabbaths”). Later in the Talmud, Yom Kippur is referred to as Yoma (Aramaic for “The Day”). It is also called Yoma Rabbah (“The Great Day”) and Tzoma Rabbah (“The Great Fast”). One would think that six different names would be sufficient for a single day of the year. But over time, people also began to refer to Yom Kippur as Yom HaDin, “The Day of Judgment,” which was originally the nickname of Yom Kippur’s good friend, Rosh Hashanah."

Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement

Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the Jewish year, and provides prophetic insight regarding the Second Coming of Mashiach, the restoration of national Israel, and the final judgment of the world.

www.hebrew4christians.com

That link says that on Yom Kippur the individual's fate is sealed.

and furthermore, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has atoned for all of our sins

Indeed today is the day of salvation. But as Paul points out in Rom 2:13-16 there is that future day of judgment that we see in Dan 7..

Christ was already crucified, already resurrected 2000 years ago - but we still celebrate communion. By contrast - that Dan 7 judgment that began when Dan 8 says it did - continues while the saints are being persecuted on Earth (just as Dan 7 says it does) and only when it is complete will the transition on Earth take place that Dan 7 speaks to -- and persecution of Christians cease. Still future to our day - obviously

 

[BobRyan]

What do Seventh-day Adventists Believe? lists the actual voted beliefs of the denomination

Belief #24 states our position on the judgment - as noted here #7

The Investigative Judgment doctrine that Adventists teach is found in places like Dan 7 and Rom 2. It declares that before the return of Christ , He engages in a work of judgment that results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22. And that as Dan 7 states - when that judgment completes all persecution of Christians ceases and the 2nd coming happens, but until then the saints are being opposed, persecuted..etc.

Adventists say that this is a doctrine that stands or falls "sola scriptura". So the case made is from scripture alone as is shown on this thread.

Daniel 7 tells us some key facts for those paying attention to the details in the chapter.

1. The judgment before the 2nd coming. (Pre-Advent) When Judgment ends we have 2nd coming/appearing according to the chapter
2. The Judgment scope that includes the saints ... and judgment passed in favor of the saints. vs 22.
3. The (little horn) persecution of the saints does not stop until after the judgment completes. So it is the key to ending that problem of the little horn.
4. The 1260 years of dark ages
5. The judgment event is connected to the end point for the dark ages persecution of the saints.

Solution: the "solution" in Daniel 7 is "the judgment" and that same "solution" in Daniel 8 is the cleansing of the sanctuary.

Romans 2:4-16 gives us the process for how names are accepted vs rejected in that judgment and tells us that the event is still future to Paul's day in vs 16 of Rom 2.

2 Cor 5:10 tells us that it is for all the saints - all -- in the future - must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Number #2 main point
Dan 7 ALONE establishes:

1. the pre-advent judment-out-of-books CORPORATE event (court-room event),
2. where details in books are evaluated
3. by the non-God courtroom observers,
4. and the conclusion reached is "judgment passed in favor of the saints"
5. Such that once the conclusion is reached all persecution of the saints ends
6. , and the kingdom is turned over.

Another way to say the above -- the purpose of the thread is to show from Dan 7 that:
1. there is a judgment in heaven
2. it concludes before the advent of Christ
3. It involves the cases of the saints just as is the case in Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10
4. it is based out of the books - things written in books (as also the NT affirms)
5. The saints are being persecuted the entire time that the judgment goes until..

The purpose of the thread is not to show the start day of that judgment or the start date of the 490 years of Dan 9 or the start date of the 2300 years - though I provide an example of such dates in the following posts ...whether or not you accept those dates does not change the 5 points listed here. All you need to do is admit that the method that is employed for those dates "is an example" of such a method -- that exists for about 23 million Christians today. Not exactly rocket science to agree that such a method exists so the point of the thread is given in the lists enumerated above - that is the main point of the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but this is eisegesis. If you accept that Jesus Christ is God, and accept that God is all-knowing, then the idea of an “Investigative Judgement” makes zero sense.

1. I did not write Dan 7, Rom 2:4-16, Rev 14:6-7 - posting that it "makes zero sense" is not helping your argument.
2. Job 1 and 2 show another kind of Dan 7 group court setting where something is determined based on what the saint (Job) does in real life. No matter that God already knew it all ahead of time. The point remains.

The idea looks like it was a pious belief of EGW

She did not write those chapters in the Bible as it turns out. Read the first 4 posts on this thread if you want to address the details of it.

1. Dan 7 points to judgment in heaven where judgment is "passed in favor of the saints " Dan 7:22
2. Dan 7 shows us that this judgment did not start until after Roman empire split into 10, and then the 11th great entity came out of it. Which is long after the days of Christ.
3. Rom 2:16 speaks of the future "day when according to my Gospel - God WILL judge"
4. Dan 7 tells us that saints are persecuted on Earth the entire time that judgment takes place.
5. Rev 14:6-7 shows us that the judgment hour begins at some future point when the predicted timeline (of Dan 8) as been accomplished. "The hour of His judgment has come" vs 7, in the same way that Mark 1:14-5 "the time is fulfilled" shows the 69weeks of Dan 9 pointing to the coming of the MEssiah - had fully elapsed.

 

[The Liturgist]

"In rabbinic literature, Yom Kippur is given an additional name, Yom Ha-Din (Day of Judgement). "

Show me one Orthodox Church Father who agrees with the particular Jewish Rabbis (also, citation needed, specifically which Rabinnic literaturer - it is not enough to say “Rabinnic literature” since that could literally be as little as some responsa written by an obscure rabbi in Upstate New York who is not followed by most other Rabbis).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I did not write Dan 7, Rom 2:4-16, Rev 14:6-7 - posting that it "makes zero sense" is not helping your argument.

She did not write those chapters in he Bible as it turns out. Read the first 4 posts on this thread if you want to address the details of it.

1. Dan 7 points to judgment in heaven where judgment is "passed in favor of the saints " Dan 7:22
2. Dan 7 shows us that this judgment did not start until after Roman empire split into 10, and then the 11th great entity came out of it. Which is long after the days of Christ.
3. Rom 2:16 speaks of the future "day when according to my Gospel - God WILL judge"
4. Dan 7 tells us that saints are presecuted on Earth the entire time that judgment takes place.
5. Rev 14:6-7 shows as that the judgment hour begins at some future point when the predicted timeline (of Dan 8) as been accomplished.

To tag on this....

Gen. 3:8,9,11,13,24---“the voice of the LORD God” investigates Adam & Eve; “where”, “Who”, “hast”, “what”

Gen. 4:9-12---God investigates Cain about Abel; “where”Gen. 5:22-24;

Heb. 11:5---God investigates Enoch; “had this testimony, that he pleased God”

Gen. 6:3,5,12---God investigates the world; “saw…every imagination”, “looked upon”

Gen. 11:5-6---God comes down at the Tower of babel; “to see”

Gen. 18:20-21---God comes down to Sodom & Gomorrah; “see … know”

Exo. 16:4,28; Num. 15:32-36; 1 Cor. 10:1-12---God tests Israel about His commandments, the 7th day the Sabbath; “How long”, “what should be done”

Lev. 16:1-34, 23:26-32; Exo. 28:15,29-30---God investigates Israel, Day of Atonement; “breast plate of judgment”

1 Kin. 3:16-28---King Solomon (Type of Christ, Prince of peace) investigates from his throne over two women and a living & dead child; “judgment”

Ezr. 2:59,61-63; Neh. 7:61,63-65---In Ezra 2, after coming out of Babylon, the priests had to be investigated to make sure they were on the genealogical records

Job 1:8, 2:3---God & man (Job) are investigated; “Hast thou considered”

Eze. 8:1-18, 9:1-11---God investigates two groups inside the city

Dan. 7:9-10,13,22(b), 8:13-14,26, 12:1,12---The Investigative Judgment; “every one that shall be found written in the book”

Zec. 3:1-3---God investigates the high priest Joshua; “clothed”

Mal. 3:3,5---God searches the metals for impurities; refiner & purifier

Luk. 13:7---Jesus investigates for fruit; “I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none”

Mat. 18:21-35---The King investigates; “a certain king, which would take account of his servants”

Mat. 22:11---The King investigates; “the king came in to see the guests, he saw”

Mar. 11:13---Jesus investigates, “seeing … afar off”

Rom. 2:13-16---“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

2 Cor. 5:10---“we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ”

Heb. 9:27---“it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”

1 Pet. 4:5---Investigating the dead; “give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead”

Jud. 1:15---In order, “To execute judgment upon all”, an investigation takes place first

Rev. 3:10, 17:12---“the hour (time) of temptation (testing)”; investigating the living

Rev. 3:14---“Laodicea” (Judgment of the people)

Rev. 11:1-2---Investigating the church; “measure the Temple (God’s people)”, “worship”

Rev. 14:6-13---“the hour of his judgment is come”

Is the Investigative Judgement Scriptural?

Hiram Edson and certain other members of the Adventist movement were guided into the belief that the event predicted by Daniel 8:14 was not the return of Christ, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. Adventists came to believe that the cleansing of the...

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[BobRyan]

On a side note, I don't believe Dan 8 has anything to do with this. That was fulfilled before Roman imperialism evolved.

Dan 8 parallels Dan 7.

In both chapters - the little horn persecutes the saints.
IN both chapters the focus is on events that take place after the rise of a great empire - greater than Persia and Greece
in both chapters the saints are persecuted until the solving event - concludes

In Dan 7 that solution is called "judgment" --- the court sits the books are opened.
In Dan 8 that solution is called "the sanctuary cleansed"

The cleansing of the sanctuary in the ceremonial system is "Day of Atonement" in Lev 23 and Lev 16 - it is recognized as the great day of judgment in which the fate of all mankind is sealed.

In Dan 9 - we all agree that the apocalyptic text uses day for a year interpretation of the 490 days, 70 weeks. Same rule is used in Dan 7 and 8.

 

[BobRyan]

Show me one Orthodox Church Father who agrees with the particular Jewish Rabbis

show me the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis that agreed with Christ that the Messiah would be put to death.