Heaven Or Hell

[1Tonne]

That is indeed far off my understanding.... depending on what you mean by "for the sinners"

I was not saying that this was what I believed. I was showing what I thought Sabbethblessings believed.

You have a Bible. Let's take our Bible and do a count.

1. John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
2. Matthew 24:30; Matthew 25: 31; Matthew 26:64; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

From my reading, I counted 2 comings - One, when he returns to take home the Saints. Two, when he comes to vent God's wrath against the nations - known as Armageddon. Revelation 16:14-16

Don't you count two as well?

No, I count one return to earth

John 14:1-3: These verses, Jesus is speaking to the disciples, knowing that in the future they would be laying down their lives for the sake of the Gospel. Those who give their lives for Christ go to be with Him in heaven. We see this in Revelation where the martyrs are in heaven. So, Christ has prepared a place for the martyrs in His Kingdom. Then, when He does come back to earth to reign for a thousand years, the angels will gather the martyrs to Him and He will receive them to Himself.
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
So, Christ has prepared a place for the martyrs.

Matt 24:30: Here, Christ returns from heaven at the end of the tribulation and when He returns the angels will gather the martyrs from the four corners of heaven to Him and return for the 1000 years.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 25:31-32: This is not Jesus coming to earth but Jesus going to heaven. The Sheep and the Goats judgment is the same judgment as the GWT. So, when Jesus is coming to sit on His throne, where is the GWT? Is it on earth or heaven? It is in heaven. And He brings with Him all the martyrs and He will then judge the sheep (His followers) and the goats (unbelievers). This is the last day.
So, the key to this verse is to look at what direction He would have to go to sit on His throne at the GWT judgement.
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Matthew 26:64: This is Jesus speaking of His ascension to heaven after being crucified, where He sits at the right hand of God and then later Jesus returns on the clouds to reign for 1000 years. This simply does not mention the martyrs. It is only a brief statement to show that He is the Christ. It is not a complete breakdown of His return when He reigns for 1000 years.
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

1 Thes 1:7-9: In this instance, when Christ returns, those who are being persecuted by the antichrist will have rest. So, persecution will stop as Christ and His armies will defeat the Antichrist. So, this is still the same return as in Mathew 24:30.
"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, "

Sorry. The post is getting too long and taking too much of my time. I will try to answer what I can, but this has taken up a lot of my day. I will have to limit how long I spend on here.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

5. The Lake of Fire – A Place of Ongoing Punishment
In Revelation 20:10, the devil, beast, and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever."
Then in Revelation 20:15, all whose names are not in the Book of Life are cast into the same lake of fire. If the devil and his followers are consciously tormented forever, why would the fate of the wicked be any different?

The Bible consistently portrays hell as a place of eternal, conscious punishment. The wicked are not simply destroyed but exist in a state of torment, shame, and contempt. While this is a difficult doctrine, it aligns with God’s justice and holiness.

I know this is a popular doctrine, but I do not believe its what the bible teaches.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment Rom 6:23, the lost perish John 3:16 not tormented forever, which makes them immortal and I believe this goes against the character of God, who is a God of love, mercy and justice. There is a punishment i.e. death, not punishing forever.

For example, Sodom and Gomorrah Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why don't we see this fire if it's still happening?

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

The punishment is eternal i.e. death, but the lost are not immortal, the consequence of sin is death. They are no more. Psalm 37:10

Yes. I believe that Jesus will reign from earth for 1000 years with the martyrs.

Jesus' 1,000-Year Reign with the Martyrs: A Biblical Perspective
As a historic premillennialist, I believe that Jesus will literally reign on earth for 1,000 years, and that He will rule alongside the martyrs—those who were killed for their faith. This view is clearly supported by Scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.

1. Revelation 20:4-6
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

This passage is pivotal in understanding the 1,000-year reign of Christ. It clearly states that the martyrs who were faithful to Christ will be resurrected and reign with Him for a literal 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection, and they will have a special position as priests of God.

Its doesn't say Jesus reigns on earth for the 1000 years anywhere in scripture. The wicked are slain by His presence and the earth desolate, Satan is bound on earth, so why would He stay here when at His house He has many mansions and where He goes, He will receive us. John 14:2

It also includes more than the martyrs

Rev 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus " and for the word of God "who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

Do those who had not worshipped the beast only martyrs? This is referring to the end of time when all people will need to decide to worship God in Truth Mat 15:9 Rev14:12 or worship the beast, which means Kingdom or government agency that enforces a mark that is contrary to God's law (His version) Rev 14:11 This is a choice the whole world, close to Jesus return, will have to decide. Not the martyrs who already died in Christ.

Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [a]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:


Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [a]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Rev 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and [a]over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the [b]saints!

Who can only sign the song of Moses?
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4

So, its not just the martyrs who will reign with Christ the 1000 years and will be part of the first resurrection, its all-God's people for all ages, which is what the 144,000 represent as a symbolic number.

Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This is God's people
Exo 19:6 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We want to be part of the 1st resurrection and not the second for those who were not in Christ 20:7-15
Hopefully something to consider.

 

[Clare73]

No need to be rude.

No need to misrepresent (post #261).

I recommend a good commentary for 2 Co 5:1-8.

 

[CoreyD]

As I mentioned Jesus never used a "fake" story, as a parable, he used real ones.

On what basis do you say this?
Was the parable / illustration : noun - A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn - of the Prodigal son a real event?

Why do you say Jesus's story is fictional?

That's what a parable / illustration is. A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn.

What point is he trying to stress in the story?

The rich man and Lazarus was a "hit" at the Pharisees.
Each element in the parable represented something they could relate to. See here for a brief explanation.
When you read the Gospel of Luke, Chapter after Chapter, during Jesus teaching tour, he is using parables, and he hits at the Pharisees and scribes regularly.

For example, the parable in Luke 20, which is not a real event, but a comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn, we read...
Luke 20:19
When the scribes and chief priests [perceived] realized that Jesus had spoken this parable against them, they sought to arrest Him that very hour. But they were afraid of the people.

These wicked men seem much wiser than most people today, who cannot discern the meaning of Jesus' parables, simply because they have a man-made doctrine to support.
Jesus did this regularly, even when he was being direct. Matthew 15:12

The prodigal son was a story about the father being willing to accept people who had strayed. The story of LAzarus, is all about the "fires: of hell. As Jesus spoke of elsewhere, look at how many times torment is used:

I think we all read the parable, and know what it's about.
I haven't ask you what the parable is about.
I asked you... Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?
Can you answer that question, please?

Luk 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "




He was stressing how important it is to avoid hell fire. We should be willing to "harm" our natural life to see eternal life.

This is what you believe. However, we are investigating the validity of your claim, and so again, I ask... Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable - A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?

 

[1Tonne]

When you quoted me, you missed out the rest of the quote and so took it out of context. Please do not edit my quotes to suit your view. This is what I said, "1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)."
So, Philippians 1:23 does not support your view that we instantly go to heaven when we die.

No need to misrepresent.

I recommend a good commentary for 2 Co 5:1-8.

I have included a post that you imply I have misrepresented Philippians 1:21-23. I will let people make their own decisions as to whether I am dividing the word correctly or if you are twisting it.

 

[CoreyD]

So Jesus rebuked the Pharisee's love of money with a lie about the afterlife? Get real.

Would verse 29 not be a lie, if Jesus is telling a real story, or telling us about the afterlife?
Luke 16:29

Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

Was Moses not dead? If Moses is dead, and in heaven, how is it the five brothers have Moses and the prophets?
How do you answer? ...and be careful how you answer, because if Moses is fictional, then you can't have the five brothers and Abraham, non-fictional.

 

[Clare73]

I have included a post that you imply I have misrepresented Philippians 1:21-23.
I will let people make their own decisions as to whether I am dividing the word correctly or if you are twisting it.

I understood you to be saying that "we" (body and spirit) go to heaven when we die.

Only the spirits of the regenerated go to heaven when they die (Php 1:21-24).

 

[1Tonne]

I know this is a popular doctrine, but I do not believe its what the bible teaches.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment Rom 6:23, the lost perish John 3:16 not tormented forever, which makes them immortal and I believe this goes against the character of God, who is a God of love, mercy and justice. There is a punishment i.e. death, not punishing forever.

For example, Sodom and Gomorrah Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why don't we see this fire if it's still happening?

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

The punishment is eternal i.e. death, but the lost are not immortal, the consequence of sin is death. They are no more. Psalm 37:10

Does the Bible Teach Eternal Conscious Punishment?​

Some argue that the wicked do not suffer eternally in hell but are instead annihilated. However, a deeper examination of Scripture shows that hell is not a temporary punishment but an eternal one.

1. "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) – What Kind of Death?

• Death in the Bible does not always mean ceasing to exist. It often refers to separation from God (e.g., Ephesians 2:1, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins"—clearly not annihilated).
• The "second death" (Revelation 20:14) is described as eternal separation in the lake of fire, not nonexistence.

2. "The lost perish" (John 3:16) – Does 'Perish' Mean Cease to Exist?

• The Greek word for perish (ἀπόλλυμι, apollymi) does not mean annihilation. It is used in Luke 15:24 ("My son was lost but now is found")—clearly, the lost son did not cease to exist.
• Apollymi means ruin, destruction, or loss, not annihilation. The lost in hell face eternal ruin, not unconsciousness.

3. The Fire of Sodom and Gomorrah – Still Burning? (Jude 1:7)

• The fire is called "eternal fire" not because it still burns today but because its judgment was final.
• However, Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 that the wicked will suffer in "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"—which does not go out.

4. The Wicked Are Tormented "Forever and Ever" (Revelation 14:11, 20:10)

• Revelation 14:11: "The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night."
• Revelation 20:10: "The devil… will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
• If the torment of the devil and the wicked is eternal, annihilation cannot be true.

5. The "Worm That Does Not Die" (Mark 9:47-48)

• Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24, saying: "Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
• The worm represents continuous corruption and suffering, not a temporary event.

6. Daniel 12:2 – Eternal Conscious Shame

• "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."
• Everlasting contempt implies continued consciousness—one cannot experience shame if one ceases to exist.

7. Why Does Eternal Punishment Fit God's Character?

• Justice requires proportional punishment—rejecting an infinite God results in an infinite consequence.
• God is both loving and just. His holiness demands judgment (2 Thessalonians 1:9—"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord").
• The higher the authority I sin against, the more severe the punishment will be. If I slap my friend in the playground, I may end up in the naughty corner. But if I were to slap a judge, then I would end up in jail. There are different penalties for defying and rebelling against different levels of authority. Now, if I have the attitude of slapping God in the face, the penalty of hell is so big because of His authority, and who He is. So, I don’t go to jail because I slap my playmate in the sandbox. But, for slapping the judge I will go to jail. Then if I defy an eternal God, the creator of the heavens and the earth, there is an eternal punishment.

The Bible does not teach annihilationism. The wicked do not simply "cease to exist" but face eternal conscious punishment. To reject the doctrine of eternal hell is to ignore the clear words of Jesus and the apostles. Hell is real, and its consequences are eternal. That is why salvation through Christ is so urgent.

 

[CoreyD]

The wording in Matthew 19:28 indicates that 12 disciples were present when Jesus made this statement. This happened before Judas betrayed Jesus, meaning he was still part of the group at that time. If you’re referring to a later event (after Judas’ betrayal), then yes, he was no longer among the 12. However, at the moment Jesus spoke these words, all 12 were there. Later, Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26) to restore the number to twelve. Thus, there are still 12 disciples.

Okay.

Regarding the 12 tribes of Israel, Revelation 7:4-8 explicitly names them, listing specific tribal divisions. If this were symbolic of all nations, we would expect broader language rather than a detailed breakdown of the tribes. The idea that the 12 tribes in Revelation must represent Gentile nations contradicts the clear wording of the text. The passage speaks specifically of Jewish people.

Where is the tribe of Dan?
Why is there a tribe of Levi?
The list is different. It is not literally the tribes of Israel.
However, if despite that, you are sticking to what you believe, what more can I say, that will change that... Nothing.

Revelation 5:9-10 does mention people from every nation being redeemed, but this simply reflects how the Jewish people were scattered throughout the world before Israel became a nation in 1948. Many returned from different countries, speaking different languages, yet they remained Jewish.

That's not what I am reading in that verse Tonne.
I'm reading... And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
These are taken out of every tribe and nation.

The Israel of God, is made of of people who come out of every nation. They are not Israelites. They are people out of every nation, including Gentiles.
So, let me ask, are the Gentiles that are one with the Jews, the Israel of God? Romans 9:6; Ephesians 2:14

So, while believers from all nations will be part of God’s kingdom, the judgment Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19:28 was given specifically to the 12 disciples, and it was directed at the 12 tribes of Israel, not the nations as a whole.

So, does that mean you believe the 144,000 are really only 12?

No. Gentiles are not Jews.
While Gentiles and Jews are all a part of the body of Christ, Revelation 6 and 7, as well as Revelation 20:4-6 are speaking specifically about Jewish people who are martyred and come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years. Not Gentiles.

How did you arrive at 144,000 from 12?

 

[CoreyD]

Does the Bible Teach Eternal Conscious Punishment?​

Some argue that the wicked do not suffer eternally in hell but are instead annihilated. However, a deeper examination of Scripture shows that hell is not a temporary punishment but an eternal one.

1. "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) – What Kind of Death?

• Death in the Bible does not always mean ceasing to exist. It often refers to separation from God (e.g., Ephesians 2:1, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins"—clearly not annihilated).
• The "second death" (Revelation 20:14) is described as eternal separation in the lake of fire, not nonexistence.

2. "The lost perish" (John 3:16) – Does 'Perish' Mean Cease to Exist?

• The Greek word for perish (ἀπόλλυμι, apollymi) does not mean annihilation. It is used in Luke 15:24 ("My son was lost but now is found")—clearly, the lost son did not cease to exist.
• Apollymi means ruin, destruction, or loss, not annihilation. The lost in hell face eternal ruin, not unconsciousness.

3. The Fire of Sodom and Gomorrah – Still Burning? (Jude 1:7)

• The fire is called "eternal fire" not because it still burns today but because its judgment was final.
• However, Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 that the wicked will suffer in "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"—which does not go out.

4. The Wicked Are Tormented "Forever and Ever" (Revelation 14:11, 20:10)

• Revelation 14:11: "The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night."
• Revelation 20:10: "The devil… will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
• If the torment of the devil and the wicked is eternal, annihilation cannot be true.

5. The "Worm That Does Not Die" (Mark 9:47-48)

• Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24, saying: "Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
• The worm represents continuous corruption and suffering, not a temporary event.

6. Daniel 12:2 – Eternal Conscious Shame

• "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."
• Everlasting contempt implies continued consciousness—one cannot experience shame if one ceases to exist.

7. Why Does Eternal Punishment Fit God's Character?

• Justice requires proportional punishment—rejecting an infinite God results in an infinite consequence.
• God is both loving and just. His holiness demands judgment (2 Thessalonians 1:9—"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord").
• The higher the authority I sin against, the more severe the punishment will be. If I slap my friend in the playground, I may end up in the naughty corner. But if I were to slap a judge, then I would end up in jail. There are different penalties for defying and rebelling against different levels of authority. Now, if I have the attitude of slapping God in the face, the penalty of hell is so big because of His authority, and who He is. So, I don’t go to jail because I slap my playmate in the sandbox. But, for slapping the judge I will go to jail. Then if I defy an eternal God, the creator of the heavens and the earth, there is an eternal punishment.

The Bible does not teach annihilationism. The wicked do not simply "cease to exist" but face eternal conscious punishment. To reject the doctrine of eternal hell is to ignore the clear words of Jesus and the apostles. Hell is real, and its consequences are eternal. That is why salvation through Christ is so urgent.

Well, what about death and hell, as well as the beast? Revelation 20:10, 14
Can you please explain how they are suffering in torments?

 

[1Tonne]

I know this is a popular doctrine, but I do not believe its what the bible teaches.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment Rom 6:23, the lost perish John 3:16 not tormented forever, which makes them immortal and I believe this goes against the character of God, who is a God of love, mercy and justice. There is a punishment i.e. death, not punishing forever.

For example, Sodom and Gomorrah Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why don't we see this fire if it's still happening?

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

The punishment is eternal i.e. death, but the lost are not immortal, the consequence of sin is death. They are no more. Psalm 37:10


Its doesn't say Jesus reigns on earth for the 1000 years anywhere in scripture. The wicked are slain by His presence and the earth desolate, Satan is bound on earth, so why would He stay here when at His house He has many mansions and where He goes, He will receive us. John 14:2

It also includes more than the martyrs

Rev 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus " and for the word of God "who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands."

Do those who had not worshipped the beast only martyrs? This is referring to the end of time when all people will need to decide to worship God in Truth Mat 15:9 Rev14:12 or worship the beast, which means Kingdom or government agency that enforces a mark that is contrary to God's law (His version) Rev 14:11 This is a choice the whole world, close to Jesus return, will have to decide. Not the martyrs who already died in Christ.

Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [a]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:


Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were [a]redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Rev 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and [a]over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the [b]saints!

Who can only sign the song of Moses?
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4

So, its not just the martyrs who will reign with Christ the 1000 years and will be part of the first resurrection, its all-God's people for all ages, which is what the 144,000 represent as a symbolic number.

Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This is God's people
Exo 19:6 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We want to be part of the 1st resurrection and not the second for those who were not in Christ 20:7-15
Hopefully something to consider.

1. Jesus does reign on earth (Revelation 5:10).
2. The first resurrection is for the martyrs and those who resisted the beast, not all believers (Revelation 20:4-6).
3. The 144,000 are not a symbolic number for all believers but a specific group sealed during the tribulation. These are the martyrs.
4. The rest of the believers are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15).

You are merging multiple ideas that Scripture keeps distinct. The martyrs reign first, and all believers receive resurrection and judgment later.

I understood you to be saying that "we" (body and spirit) go to heaven when we die.

Only the spirits of the regenerated go to heaven when they die (Php 1:21-24).

No. I did not say that we go instantly to heaven when we die. You need to read properly instead of accusing people of misrepresenting scripture.
I believe we go to the grave and stay there until the last day. On the last day, we are raised. (Did you read any of my other posts or have you simply skimmed? I have stated it several times throughout this entire thread)
The only people I believe who are raised instantly are the martyrs. In Revelation, it talks about them being with Him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Would verse 29 not be a lie, if Jesus is telling a real story, or telling us about the afterlife?
Luke 16:29

Was Moses not dead? If Moses is dead, and in heaven, how is it the five brothers have Moses and the prophets?
How do you answer? ...and be careful how you answer, because if Moses is fictional, then you can't have the five brothers and Abraham, non-fictional.

Jesus meant they had Moses teachings, and the teachings of the prophets, not that Moses was alive.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think we all read the parable, and know what it's about.
I haven't ask you what the parable is about.
I asked you... Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?
Can you answer that question, please?


This is what you believe. However, we are investigating the validity of your claim, and so again, I ask... Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable - A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?

Yes, the story of the Prodigal Son is a Parable. But is uses real-life things like a father, two sons, and pigs. Jesus never used fiction in His parables.

The people in Jesus's story, about Lazurus and the rich man, may be fake. But the reality of hell fire, the concepts being taught are true. Hell is so hot and it's punishment is so severe that even a drop of water would be soothing.

 

[CoreyD]

Sadly, when I first started sharing the Gospel, some leaders told me that in this day and age we are not to go out and share the Gospel in public as this can scare people away from Church. Instead, because society has changed, we are to make friends with people and then once you have made a trusting relationship, we can then share the Gospel. They told me that by making friends, we have less chance of scaring people away. But the funny thing is, to those who do not believe, the Gospel is offensive and if you say it in its fullness, many people will not like you. The bible says that. Especially if you show people that they have sinned against God. That is offensive. But Jesus did the same and He said that the world hated Him because of it.
I chose to obey God over what the leaders said, and for a while, I was talked badly about in a bad way. But now, some are slowly changing their views.
NOTE: I can start talking to a person and within 2 minutes, I have created enough rapport to be able to share the Gospel. We do not have to wait for months and months and become their best friend. In fact, to know of God, everlasting life and everlasting death and not to warn people of it, that is unloving. We need to tell people as soon as possible.
I also understand that we cannot always tell the Gospel straight away to every person that we meet. But when the opportunity arises, we should jump at it.

Perhaps you should have handed your leaders a Bible, and asked them to show you where it says, "in this day and age we are not to go out and share the Gospel in public".
They might have done like the Pharisees and threw you out. LOL

I believe that the word "mnémeion" simply means grave or tomb. A grave is a place of rememberance.

Okay.

I am not sure what you mean. Those who are unrighteous are wicked.

Is a child that ignorantly follows another, and smokes weed, wicked?
Is the woman that learns to be a professional boxer, wicked?
Is the soldier that believes he should fight for his country, and takes many lives wicked?

How do you define unrighteous, and what does it mean to be wicked?

Yes. I do disagree. I do not believe in annihilationism.
Many argue that the wicked are annihilated, ceasing to exist after judgment. However, Scripture consistently describes their fate as one of ongoing, conscious punishment. Here are a few key reasons why I believe the Bible teaches eternal consciousness for those in hell:

1. The Worm That Never Dies – A Metaphor for the Person
Jesus says in Mark 9:48, referring to hell:
"where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
Some interpret this as a reference to literal maggots consuming corpses. However, this phrase is rooted in Isaiah 66:24, which describes the wicked being viewed with horror. Importantly, the worm is "their" worm, indicating personal identity. So, their soul.
A strong parallel exists in Psalm 22:6, where the suffering Psalmist declares: "But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people." Here we see him berating himself, knowing that he is viewed as not a good person.
Here, "worm" refers to the person experiencing humiliation and suffering—not an actual maggot. Likewise, in Mark 9:48, "their worm" suggests the wicked themselves persist in disgrace and torment.

That's your opinion Tonne.
The Bible says, the dead know nothing, and there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom, where the dead go. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 12:7

2. Daniel 12:2 – Everlasting Shame Requires Consciousness
Daniel speaks of two eternal destinies: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
To experience contempt, one must be aware. The wicked do not simply vanish; they exist in a state of eternal disgrace, implying consciousness.

4. Revelation 14:9-11 – The Wicked Experience Eternal Torment
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image." (Revelation 14:11)
Torment that rises "forever and ever" and the phrase "they have no rest" suggests ongoing consciousness. The language is identical to Revelation 4:8, where the saints worship God "forever and ever"—so if eternal worship is conscious, why wouldn’t eternal punishment be?

Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?
How are they conscious, when wise King Solomon said they are not; His father David said they are not; His father, Jesus Christ, said they are not.
If you read these verses figuratively, instead of literally, would there be any conflict with the scriptures? No.
There is therefore the possibility you are indeed misunderstanding these verse, would you agree.

The teaching of hellfire originated because of man's justice... believing that death is too "easy" for the wicked.
One person told me that the wicked cannot just die, after doing so much wickedness.
They become judge, you see... thinking that they are so righteous.
Jesus warned that such judges will have judgment. Matthew 7:1

5. The Lake of Fire – A Place of Ongoing Punishment
In Revelation 20:10, the devil, beast, and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever."
Then in Revelation 20:15, all whose names are not in the Book of Life are cast into the same lake of fire. If the devil and his followers are consciously tormented forever, why would the fate of the wicked be any different?

The Bible says the Lake of fire is the second death.

The Bible consistently portrays hell as a place of eternal, conscious punishment. The wicked are not simply destroyed but exist in a state of torment, shame, and contempt. While this is a difficult doctrine, it aligns with God’s justice and holiness.

No Tonne. It dishonors God, and makes him out to be worst that Hitler.

Yes. I believe that Jesus will reign from earth for 1000 years with the martyrs.

Why do you believe that?
Where is that written in the Bible?

Jesus' 1,000-Year Reign with the Martyrs: A Biblical Perspective
As a historic premillennialist, I believe that Jesus will literally reign on earth for 1,000 years, and that He will rule alongside the martyrs—those who were killed for their faith. This view is clearly supported by Scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.

1. Revelation 20:4-6
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

This passage is pivotal in understanding the 1,000-year reign of Christ. It clearly states that the martyrs who were faithful to Christ will be resurrected and reign with Him for a literal 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection, and they will have a special position as priests of God.

2. Revelation 5:10
“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
This passage confirms that believers, including martyrs, will reign on earth, supporting the idea that the millennial reign will take place on earth rather than in heaven.

3. Isaiah 2:2-4
“Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths.’ For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.”

This prophecy from Isaiah describes the millennial kingdom where Jesus will reign from Jerusalem, and peace will prevail among the nations.

4. Revelation 20:7-10
“When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
These passages further solidifies the literal 1,000-year reign, ending with Satan being released for a short time and then the final defeat of him and his forces, who will be destroyed after the millennium.

5. Revelation 19:11-Rev 20:6
This passage of text speaks of when Jesus returns and defeats the antichrist who is on earth. Then chapter 20 is a continuation after this battle. He sets up rulership and reigns with the martyrs for 1000 years.

6. Zechariah 14:4-9
Zechariah prophesies about the Lord's return to earth to establish His reign:
"In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azal; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.”

This passage speaks of Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives, where His feet will stand, and He will reign as King over all the earth.

7. Zech 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
This states that Jesus will be ruling from Jeruselam.

8. Jude 1:14-15
Jude refers to the return of the Lord with His holy ones:
“It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’”

This passage alludes to Jesus coming with His holy ones to execute judgment on the earth, which corresponds to His second coming to establish His reign.

9. Revelation 17:14

This passage speaks of Jesus' ultimate victory over His enemies, where He will reign with His army:
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

This highlights the Lamb's (Jesus’) victory over the forces of evil, and that those who are with Him—referring to the martyrs—will participate in His reign and victory.

The Bible clearly describes Jesus returning in the clouds with His army (the heavenly host, angels, and redeemed believers) to defeat the Antichrist, judge the nations, and establish His reign on earth. Passages like Revelation 19:11-16, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:4-9, and Jude 1:14-15 all point to this event, affirming that Jesus will return physically to earth to establish His kingdom.

None of those scriptures say Jesus reigns from earth.
Try these...
The kingdom is in heaven - Matthew uses the expression Kingdom of the heaven 32 times. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27, presents the receiving of kingdom power in heaven. Jesus promises places in heaven for those who will rule with him. John 14:1-4. Those with the heavenly hope, expected to be in heaven forever. 2 Corinthians 5:1-3; Philippians 3:20. The Bible refers to Heavenly Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1. etc.

 

[1Tonne]

That's not what I am reading in that verse Tonne.
I'm reading... And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
These are taken out of every tribe and nation.

The Israel of God, is made of of people who come out of every nation. They are not Israelites. They are people out of every nation, including Gentiles.
So, let me ask, are the Gentiles that are one with the Jews, the Israel of God? Romans 9:6; Ephesians 2:14

Gentiles are grafted in. Romans 9:6 teaches that true Israel is based on faith, not just ethnicity. However, this does not mean that Gentiles are part of the 144,000 in Revelation. Believers are all raised on the last day while the 144,000 will reign for 1000 years with Him. They are a specific people.

So, does that mean you believe the 144,000 are really only 12?

Sorry. I think you may have totally missed what I am saying.
In Matthew 19:28 Jesus gives the 12 disciples authority to judge the nation of Isreal. So, any Jewish person. Then if we look at Revelation 20:4 we see that there are a number of thrones where people have been given authority to judge (This is similar to what Matt 19:28 says). So, I believe that these thrones are for the 12 disciples. If it is the 12 disciples, then those who are being judged, the martyrs must be Jewish.
Then if we look at Rev 6 and 7, we see that the martyrs are given white robes, and then God puts a seal on them to mark that they are His special people. Next, an angel calls out and describes the number of the martyrs which is 144,000. Then John finally sees them all and it is a large number too many to count. They are a great multitude. These people who are from all over the world are Jewish people who have been killed for their faith. So, I believe Matthew 19:28, Revelation 20:4-6 and Revelation 6 and 7 all have a very strong link.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1. Jesus does reign on earth (Revelation 5:10).

Where does it say Jesus reigns on earth in the millennium in this verse?

And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”


Exo 19:6 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1. The first resurrection is for the martyrs and those who resisted the beast, not all believers (Revelation 20:4-6).

You're leaving out a very important part of this passage for some reason

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

1. The 144,000 are not a symbolic number for all believers but a specific group sealed during the tribulation. These are the martyrs.

These are the saved, are you saying there are only 144,000 saved? Thats not very many. The martyrs are already dead....this is about a different group. You might want to go back and study who at the end of time either has the mark of the beast or the seal of God, which is part of this group and applies to everyone at the end of time. Even Cain was "marked" by God. In the end two groups, those with God's seal, those who have the mark of the beast.

1. The rest of the believers are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15).

This is not the believers. The believers is only in the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the first resurrection Rev 12:6 There are not two resurrections for the saved, only 1 for the saved the first and one for the lost after the 1000 years.

This is for the lost, the second resurrection. Rev 20: 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You are merging multiple ideas that Scripture keeps distinct. The martyrs reign first, and all believers receive resurrection and judgment later.

I'm not it's what the scriptures say, you are leaving out important verses, that shows there is only 1 resurrection for the saved, not two.

I'm okay agreeing to disagree, but I think this is important to understand.

 

[Clare73]

No. I did not say that we go instantly to heaven when we die.

Previously discussed. . .

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Does the Bible Teach Eternal Conscious Punishment?​

Some argue that the wicked do not suffer eternally in hell but are instead annihilated. However, a deeper examination of Scripture shows that hell is not a temporary punishment but an eternal one.

1. "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) – What Kind of Death?

• Death in the Bible does not always mean ceasing to exist. It often refers to separation from God (e.g., Ephesians 2:1, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins"—clearly not annihilated).
• The "second death" (Revelation 20:14) is described as eternal separation in the lake of fire, not nonexistence.

2. "The lost perish" (John 3:16) – Does 'Perish' Mean Cease to Exist?

• The Greek word for perish (ἀπόλλυμι, apollymi) does not mean annihilation. It is used in Luke 15:24 ("My son was lost but now is found")—clearly, the lost son did not cease to exist.
• Apollymi means ruin, destruction, or loss, not annihilation. The lost in hell face eternal ruin, not unconsciousness.

3. The Fire of Sodom and Gomorrah – Still Burning? (Jude 1:7)

• The fire is called "eternal fire" not because it still burns today but because its judgment was final.
• However, Jesus said in Matthew 25:41 that the wicked will suffer in "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"—which does not go out.

4. The Wicked Are Tormented "Forever and Ever" (Revelation 14:11, 20:10)

• Revelation 14:11: "The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night."
• Revelation 20:10: "The devil… will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
• If the torment of the devil and the wicked is eternal, annihilation cannot be true.

5. The "Worm That Does Not Die" (Mark 9:47-48)

• Jesus quoted Isaiah 66:24, saying: "Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
• The worm represents continuous corruption and suffering, not a temporary event.

6. Daniel 12:2 – Eternal Conscious Shame

• "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."
• Everlasting contempt implies continued consciousness—one cannot experience shame if one ceases to exist.

7. Why Does Eternal Punishment Fit God's Character?

• Justice requires proportional punishment—rejecting an infinite God results in an infinite consequence.
• God is both loving and just. His holiness demands judgment (2 Thessalonians 1:9—"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord").
• The higher the authority I sin against, the more severe the punishment will be. If I slap my friend in the playground, I may end up in the naughty corner. But if I were to slap a judge, then I would end up in jail. There are different penalties for defying and rebelling against different levels of authority. Now, if I have the attitude of slapping God in the face, the penalty of hell is so big because of His authority, and who He is. So, I don’t go to jail because I slap my playmate in the sandbox. But, for slapping the judge I will go to jail. Then if I defy an eternal God, the creator of the heavens and the earth, there is an eternal punishment.

The Bible does not teach annihilationism. The wicked do not simply "cease to exist" but face eternal conscious punishment. To reject the doctrine of eternal hell is to ignore the clear words of Jesus and the apostles. Hell is real, and its consequences are eternal. That is why salvation through Christ is so urgent.

I know you did not invent this doctrine, but to me its one of the most dangerous doctrines in scripture and really an assassination of God's character. That God would torture people forever and ever and ever and it makes the devil immortal, when he will not be, he will be destroyed and perish, die along with all sinners. Rom 6:23

Anyway, here is a good website on the subject, if you have some time take a read.

Is Hell Real? | Hell Truth

Does hell burn forever? The truth may surprise you ...

www.helltruth.com

You say death doesn’t always mean death, most of the time it does. Forever doesn’t always mean forever. So I guess it’s a matter of what we believe is God’s character. A God of love that would not torture people forever and ever, but also torture His saints that we know Aunt Bettie is out there burning away forever and ever. That’s not what He says, He wipes away all tears, no more pain, no more sorrow. The wages of sin is death and death means just that, no more. Psa 37:10 Just like the fire went out in Sodom it goes out for the sinners and all thats left is ashes. The punishment will be eternal- death, but there will be no punishing forever.


Did you know that in Scripture, the term “forever” is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place?

For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide “forever” (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for “as long as he lives” (verse 28).

In another case, Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish “forever” (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for “three days and three nights” (Jonah 1:17).

Indeed, more than 50 times the Bible uses “forever” to mean “for as long as time lasts in that specific case.” Even today, the term is used colloquially to describe a downpour or a hot summer afternoon that “went on forever.”

The Bible tells us that “the wages of sin is” not eternal life in hellfire, but “death” (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would suffer if they ate the forbidden fruit.

Ezekiel states clearly that “the soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as “stubble” and would become “ashes under the soles” of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3).

Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the “earth.”

Compare that with Psalm 37:10 (“For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more”), Psalm 68:2 (“As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would “surely die” as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.

 

[CoreyD]

I was not saying that this was what I believed. I was showing what I thought Sabbethblessings believed.

No, I count one return to earth

John 14:1-3: These verses, Jesus is speaking to the disciples, knowing that in the future they would be laying down their lives for the sake of the Gospel. Those who give their lives for Christ go to be with Him in heaven. We see this in Revelation where the martyrs are in heaven. So, Christ has prepared a place for the martyrs in His Kingdom. Then, when He does come back to earth to reign for a thousand years, the angels will gather the martyrs to Him and He will receive them to Himself.
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
So, Christ has prepared a place for the martyrs.

Matt 24:30: Here, Christ returns from heaven at the end of the tribulation and when He returns the angels will gather the martyrs from the four corners of heaven to Him and return for the 1000 years.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 25:31-32: This is not Jesus coming to earth but Jesus going to heaven. The Sheep and the Goats judgment is the same judgment as the GWT. So, when Jesus is coming to sit on His throne, where is the GWT? Is it on earth or heaven? It is in heaven. And He brings with Him all the martyrs and He will then judge the sheep (His followers) and the goats (unbelievers). This is the last day.
So, the key to this verse is to look at what direction He would have to go to sit on His throne at the GWT judgement.
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Matthew 26:64: This is Jesus speaking of His ascension to heaven after being crucified, where He sits at the right hand of God and then later Jesus returns on the clouds to reign for 1000 years. This simply does not mention the martyrs. It is only a brief statement to show that He is the Christ. It is not a complete breakdown of His return when He reigns for 1000 years.
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

1 Thes 1:7-9: In this instance, when Christ returns, those who are being persecuted by the antichrist will have rest. So, persecution will stop as Christ and His armies will defeat the Antichrist. So, this is still the same return as in Mathew 24:30.
"and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, "

Sorry. The post is getting too long and taking too much of my time. I will try to answer what I can, but this has taken up a lot of my day. I will have to limit how long I spend on here.

Is your avatar you.
I see you are wearing glasses.
Take a closer look.

1. John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
2. Matthew 24:30; Matthew 25: 31; Matthew 26:64; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne

Was that any better?
Can you see two returns.

Jesus only came to earth once, and will not set foot on the earth again.
That is what the Bible says Tonne.
Do you accept the Bible?

 

[CoreyD]

This to me is one of the most dangerous doctrines in scripture and really an assassination of God's character. That people would be tortured forever and ever and it makes the devil immortal, when he will not be, he will be destroyed and perish, die along with all sinners. Rom 6:23

Believing a lie like that, is in Satan's favor, as it paints God as the most cruel individual, since it claims he tortures people, not only momentarily, but eternally.
No human has ever been torture their whole life, so that teaching makes humans more righteous than God.
No human would even think of burning a child on the hand for a wicked deed.
Yet, people claim that God tortures his children for wicked acts... even acts done in ignorance.
Nothing makes the Devil more happy. So, this must be the most dangerous lie ever told.
I think I am discovering that Tonne and I disagree on more than 50% teachings.