Heaven Or Hell

[CoreyD]

I don’t think it was a matter of feelings, we agree on some things, we don’t on others based on our understanding of scripture. You threw a lot at me, I did not go through each point, but like I said I will go through each section because it does seem you are open to reasoning, so I agree, let’s reason with one another and not talk past each other and my apologies for not spending the time looking at each verse. I promise to do so when I reply again.

Yes. I know I threw a lot at you... but that's the way the Bible - God's word is designed.
It's designed to throw a lot at us, in order to "cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ" 2 Corinthians 10:4-6

The Bible is likened to a sword - a sharp two edged sword, and one needs to be able to wield it skillfully... especially since some put up bricks to parry slaps being delivered with it.

Looking forward to your response... and please, I want you to take your time, please. This is serious, and vitally important.
It's really a matter of life or death.
2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Bible is likened to a sword - a sharp two edged sword

Amen

The heirs of the kingdom are righteous.
However, the righteous are not all heirs of the kingdom.

So I am having a hard time following you.

For example, men of faith, mentioned by the apostle Paul, at Hebrews 11, all died, and were not raised to heaven, as you agreed.

Do you beleive those mentioned in Hebrews 11 are not going to be saved? I believe they were not raised because those dead in Christ will come forth from their grave when Jesus comes and will meet Him in the air at His Second Coming. I believe everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 will be saved by their faith

1 Thess 4:16 And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

These are the same event, Christ only comes back once for those in Christ. He comes back after the first resurrection after the 1000 years, for the sinners and those who are not in Christ Rev 20:7-15

At 1 Corinthians 15, we read...

• Verse 20 - But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
• Verse 23 - But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming,

This seems to correspond with 1 Thes 4:16-17 and Rev 20

At Romans 8:22, 23, we read...

• 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
• 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Yes, this is all to come

At Revelation 14:4, we read...

• 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

The firstfruits are the adopted sons of God, redeemed from among mankind, to God.
Jesus is the first of the firstfruits. Afterward, those who belong to Christ. Who are those?

So first we need to understand what the 144,000 represents. The number is either literal or its symbolic.

If if you look at Rev 14:3

Rev 14:3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

Is only 144,000 going to be redeemed from the earth?

If we look at Revelation 7:9 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

And now look at Isaiah 51:11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

So the 144,000 is not a literal number but a symbolic number of the saints or the righteous. The 144,000 is symbolic for the people in God’s church throughout all ages. Like the parable of the sower, whose seed was on good ground which brings forth much fruit, Mat 13:8 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, which represents His church

Luke 22:28-30
28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

I believe this is referring to after His Second Coming 1 Corinthians 6:3 during the millennium when all the books are opened up and Jesus is going to want to spend time with His saved (just one group) because it will be hard for us to learn why some of our loved ones didn’t make it. At that time Jesus is going to show everything so we understand what happened, how it happened and why our loved ones are not there. Why the angles in heaven fell and will judge that God was righteous in how He handled the fall of Lucifer and how he handled the fall of mankind at the garden and if His plan of redemption was fair and just

These are the ones Jesus made a covenant with, to grant them ruling authority in the kingdom.
This choosing started from Jesus 12 apostles, and continue from there. Please read Luke 12:32, and Matthew 11:12
These ones prove themselves faithful to the end, sticking with their Lord through the greatest of trials. Revelation 14:4

Jesus made a covenant with Israel Heb 8:10 which represents His people, we are only grafted in through faith and becomes heirs to Abraham’s seed which is through Israel or God church not by nationality but by faith Gal 2:26-29 Rom 2:28-29 Romans 9:6-8

It almost makes it sound as if you are saying there are two salvations, two heavenly kingdoms, two resurrections for the saved, perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

I’ll stop for for now and try to pick up the rest of your post later, but if you can clarify your position, that would be helpful to me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

This is one verse, isn't it, and a parable, isn't it?
Did you consider the verses @SabbathBlessings used, and what they said?
Can I ask... do you acknowledge that this is a parable... Can you answer yes or no, please?

Ok, so you say the verse is a parable? Parables are real-life stores to stress a point. Jesus used parables about farming, fishing, sheep, and goats.

Why would Jesus tell a story to confuse His listeners about hell? He had spoken about hellfire before.

Mat18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

This is no parable it is reality.

 

[Clare73]

You are right Clare.
However, you missed the point @Aaron112 is making.
He is saying that even a "dumb" animal can be used by God, to convey truths, more so than the billions of intelligent beings walking around on this planet, claiming revelation from God.
At least I think that's the point he is making.

The point was receiving and understanding revelation.
Donkeys don't do that.

 

[Lukaris]

Do you think we go to heaven the instant we die, or do we sleep (or so

“Do you think we go to heaven the instant we die, or do we sleep (or something like that) until Christ comes again and we are awakened? We had a discu

billygraham.org

 

[Clare73]

Do you think we go to heaven the instant we die, or do we sleep (or so

“Do you think we go to heaven the instant we die, or do we sleep (or something like that) until Christ comes again and we are awakened? We had a discu

billygraham.org

The human spirits of the saved are at home with the Lord when their spirits depart their bodies (Php 1:21-23, 2 Co 5:1-8).

 

[Aaron112]

You are right Clare.
However, you missed the point @Aaron112 is making.
He is saying that even a "dumb" animal can be used by God, to convey truths, more so than the billions of intelligent beings walking around on this planet, claiming revelation from God.
At least I think that's the point he is making.

Yes, thank you for simple truth here.
Noticed while reading this, or remembered, the donkey spoke the truth that balaam? did not see ;
a big difference from "billions" who do not receive anything from God, and do not speak the truth ever.
Apparently from a few replies today, (some number of) members do not expect to receive revelation from God, and they do not receive revelation from God. Others do.
That's not a problem right now, here and now,
but when someone posts directly contrary to what God has Said, well, that's very common and it is not possible to correct them due to time and space and rules here and now and daily.
(too many to even note, let alone correct. ) . A time and place for everything, as God Directs.

 

[Lukaris]

The human spirits of the saved are at home with the Lord when their spirits depart their bodies (Php 1:21-23, 2 Co 5:1-8).

Which is what Pastor Graham said and I believe also. He believes soul sleep belief does not disrupt salvation.

 

[Aaron112]

You know that's not true.

Unverified statement. Some other things they replied recently also, they don't recognize as true or not true. It might be because of some doctrinal believe that does not agree ?

 

[Aaron112]

It would be interesting to see the Philistines who fought David, meeting in paradise. They could become brothers and live forever.

What ? i.e. clarify. Certainly after they died, they could not meet anywhere until the resurrection, and they won't be happy at that point as their judgment is at hand.

 

[1Tonne]

Luke 22:28-30
28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

These are the ones Jesus made a covenant with, to grant them ruling authority in the kingdom.
This choosing started from Jesus 12 apostles, and continue from there. Please read Luke 12:32, and Matthew 11:12
These ones prove themselves faithful to the end, sticking with their Lord through the greatest of trials. Revelation 14:4

So, from Jesus apostles, onward, the firstfruits to God - adopted sons, were being chosen for the kingdom, to rule, and, to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Is there a limit?

You’re referring to the 12 disciples being given authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. This means they will judge the Jewish people. I believe this authority is exclusive to the 12 disciples as a reward for following Jesus during His earthly ministry and sacrificing their lives for Him.
"And Jesus said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’" Matthew 19:28

Here’s an interesting observation (get your bible out as this is worth looking at): We know that Jesus judges everyone—except for the Jewish people as the disciples will judge them.
Now, in Revelation 20:4, we see that it is not Jesus who judges the martyrs; rather, judgment is given to others. This suggests that the disciples are the ones judging, and this in turn would mean that the martyrs being judged are Jewish.
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

There are other passages that suggest these martyrs who reign with Christ are Jewish too.
In Revelation 6:11, the martyrs are given white robes and told to wait until their full number is completed:
"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

Shortly after, in Revelation 7:4-8, John hears the number. It is the number of those who are sealed—144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. However, at this point, he does not see them; he only hears about them. It does not say what they are seal for. Many say that this seal is a seal of protection during the tribulation. But I do not think so. I believe the sealing is a mark of being chosen for the millennial reign rather than a form of earthly protection during the tribulation. This means they endure the tribulation but are ultimately set apart for their role in Christ’s kingdom.- You will see why I believe this as we continue.

Then, after John is told about the number of people, in Revelation 7:9, he actually sees them—but instead of a specific number, he describes a vast multitude that no one could count, made up of people from all nations, tribes, and languages.

The question that should then be asked is, how can these people be from the 12 tribes of Israel, yet they are described as coming from all over the world?
Answer: Before World War II, Jewish people were scattered worldwide but retained their identity. In 1948, the modern state of Israel was established, and many Jews began returning to their homeland. This explains why the 144,000 are described as coming "from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." They are Jewish people who have returned to their homeland.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes…Revelation 7:9, 13-14

A little further on in Revelation 7:13, an elder asks John a rhetorical question to make a point. This is rhetorical because he already knows the answer and asks it to emphasize the significance of the great multitude, the 144,000. His question is not meant to gain information but to guide John (and the reader) toward a deeper understanding of their identity and importance.
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"

To summarize:
-Revelation 6:11 – The martyrs receive white robes and must wait for the full number.
-Revelation 7:4-8 – John hears the number: 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel.
-Revelation 7:9-14 – John sees them as a vast multitude from all nations.
-Revelation 7:17 – John is asked a rhetorical question to emphasize that we already know who they are.

Therefore, in Revelation 20:4, when judgment is given to those seated on thrones, the ones being judged—the martyrs—are the 144,000 in white robes. They are the great multitude.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You’re referring to the 12 disciples being given authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. This means they will judge the Jewish people. I believe this authority is exclusive to the 12 disciples as a reward for following Jesus during His earthly ministry and sacrificing their lives for Him.
"And Jesus said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’" Matthew 19:28

Here’s an interesting observation (get your bible out as this is worth looking at): We know that Jesus judges everyone—except for the Jewish people as the disciples will judge them.
Now, in Revelation 20:4, we see that it is not Jesus who judges the martyrs; rather, judgment is given to others. This suggests that the disciples are the ones judging, and this in turn would mean that the martyrs being judged are Jewish.
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

There are other passages that suggest these martyrs who reign with Christ are Jewish too.
In Revelation 6:11, the martyrs are given white robes and told to wait until their full number is completed:
"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

Shortly after, in Revelation 7:4-8, John hears the number. It is the number of those who are sealed—144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. However, at this point, he does not see them; he only hears about them. It does not say what they are seal for. Many say that this seal is a seal of protection during the tribulation. But I do not think so. I believe the sealing is a mark of being chosen for the millennial reign rather than a form of earthly protection during the tribulation. This means they endure the tribulation but are ultimately set apart for their role in Christ’s kingdom.- You will see why I believe this as we continue.

Then, after John is told about the number of people, in Revelation 7:9, he actually sees them—but instead of a specific number, he describes a vast multitude that no one could count, made up of people from all nations, tribes, and languages.

The question that should then be asked is, how can these people be from the 12 tribes of Israel, yet they are described as coming from all over the world?
Answer: Before World War II, Jewish people were scattered worldwide but retained their identity. In 1948, the modern state of Israel was established, and many Jews began returning to their homeland. This explains why the 144,000 are described as coming "from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." They are Jewish people who have returned to their homeland.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes…Revelation 7:9, 13-14

A little further on in Revelation 7:13, an elder asks John a rhetorical question to make a point. This is rhetorical because he already knows the answer and asks it to emphasize the significance of the great multitude, the 144,000. His question is not meant to gain information but to guide John (and the reader) toward a deeper understanding of their identity and importance.
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"

To summarize:
-Revelation 6:11 – The martyrs receive white robes and must wait for the full number.
-Revelation 7:4-8 – John hears the number: 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel.
-Revelation 7:9-14 – John sees them as a vast multitude from all nations.
-Revelation 7:17 – John is asked a rhetorical question to emphasize that we already know who they are.

Therefore, in Revelation 20:4, when judgment is given to those seated on thrones, the ones being judged—the martyrs—are the 144,000 in white robes. They are the great multitude.

I think we have to keep in mind, the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelations can’t be literal because some of them no longer exist and we have to keep in mind with Israel disobeying God, it went from literal to spiritual Israel - from the Jewish church to the Christian church - God’s people grafted in through faith, not by nationality.

 

[1Tonne]

We agree on so many things. I'm amazed.
It's not often I meet someone who sees so clearly these simple truths.
No wonder you are so zealous about preaching the Gospel. It's so badly needed, even among the thousands of Christian denominations.

The immortal soul doctrine, which is obviously not from God, but his adversary is primarily what has corrupted church doctrine.

Funny thing is, I do not believe my church would allow me to teach. Sad.

That is so true... except in the case of the wicked, who gain no resurrection.

They do gain resurrection. John 5:28-29 says, "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
So, those who are not God's will come out from the graves to a resurrection of "krisis" (of damnation)

However, let's not get into the practice of talking past each other, as most are in the custom of doing.

Sorry. I am probably guilty. I do try and read but limited on time and so I skim.

The soul dies, according to the Bible. Ezekiel 18:4

I believe that this is talking about the second death where those who do not believe are cast into the lake of fire. This second death is different from our first death as the people there will have consciousness. They will feel everything. Daniels 12:2 speaks about how they have everlasting shame and contempt. To feel contempt, you have to be conscious.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2

These are the same event, Christ only comes back once for those in Christ. He comes back after the first resurrection after the 1000 years, for the sinners and those who are not in Christ Rev 20:7-15

I think that you are on the correct line with your thinking, but there are a few little things that need straightening up. You thinking is, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ, the martyrs, then He reigns from earth, then, going off your understanding, He leaves and then comes back again for the sinners.
The issue with this thinking is that there is only one time when Christ returns. Not twice.

I believe He brings back the dead in Christ with Him, the martyrs and reigns with them. Next Satan is set free, God destroys Satan. Then at this point, the very last day. Christ ascends into the clouds and raises all peoples. That is both dead and alive, believer and non-believer, and they go to judgement.
1 Cor 15:23 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."
This says that Christ was first raised from the dead, then next the martyrs are raised (Rev 20:4-6) at His second coming. Rev 20 says that they reign with Him for 1000 years. Then verse 24 speaks about the very end and how all the rest of the believers, dead and alive (the kingdom), are raised. "Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."

So first we need to understand what the 144,000 represents. The number is either literal or its symbolic.

So the 144,000 is not a literal number but a symbolic number of the saints or the righteous.

I think we have to keep in mind, the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelations can’t be literal because some of them no longer exist and we have to keep in mind with Israel disobeying God, it went from literal to spiritual Israel - from the Jewish church to the Christian church - God’s people grafted in through faith, not by nationality.

I understand the view that Israel became spiritual rather than literal, but I believe Revelation refers to the 12 tribes in a literal sense. Here’s why:

1. The Specificity of the 12 Tribes in Revelation 7
   The passage doesn’t use symbolic language but explicitly names 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. If this were symbolic for the Church, we would expect a different description—perhaps referencing all believers rather than listing individual tribes.
2. Lost Tribes vs. God's Sovereignty
   Some argue that certain tribes no longer exist, but from God’s perspective, they do. Even if human records have lost track of them, God has not. He knows exactly who belongs to each tribe. The scattering of Israel doesn’t mean the tribes ceased to exist, only that they were dispersed.
3. Distinction Between Israel and the Church
   While Gentiles are grafted into God’s covenant (Romans 11), the Bible still maintains a distinction between Israel and the Church. Paul speaks of “Israel according to the flesh” (1 Corinthians 10:18), showing that national Israel still has a role.
4. Jesus' Promise to the Disciples
   In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the 12 disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. If Israel were purely spiritual and indistinguishable from the Church, this promise would lose its clear meaning.
5. God’s Faithfulness to Israel
   Even with Israel’s disobedience, God’s covenant with them remains. Romans 11:29 says, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” If national Israel was permanently replaced, there would be no need for Paul to say that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26).

So, while the Church includes both Jews and Gentiles, I believe the 144,000 in Revelation are specifically Jewish believers from literal Israel, as described in the text.

I believe this is referring to after His Second Coming 1 Corinthians 6:3 during the millennium when all the books are opened up and Jesus is going to want to spend time with His saved (just one group) because it will be hard for us to learn why some of our loved ones didn’t make it. At that time Jesus is going to show everything so we understand what happened, how it happened and why our loved ones are not there. Why the angles in heaven fell and will judge that God was righteous in how He handled the fall of Lucifer and how he handled the fall of mankind at the garden and if His plan of redemption was fair and just

Luke 22:28-30 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
The corresponding verse for this in Matthew is Matt 19:28
"And Jesus said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’"
This is simply saying that Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the Jewish people. So, Jesus judges everyone at the GWT judgement, except for the Jewish people. They will be judged by the disciples.
(If you read Post 251, it will show you how we can tell that the martyrs, the 144,000 and the great multitude are all Jewish and that they are judged by the disciples.)
Check out Post 251.

NOTE: Even though I do not agree with your content in your post, I "Liked" it because I can see that you are open and thinking well. This is a rear thing. Good on you.

Ok, so you say the verse is a parable? Parables are real-life stores to stress a point. Jesus used parables about farming, fishing, sheep, and goats.

Why would Jesus tell a story to confuse His listeners about hell? He had spoken about hellfire before.

Mat18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

This is no parable it is reality.

Definition of a parable, "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"
These are stories used to illustrate an idea. It does not mean it is real.
Jesus used different types of speech to get His ideas across. Parabolic speech was one way, and in other instances, He used hyperbolic speech. And we see Him use hyperbolic, exaggerated speech in Matthew 18:9. So, not all things are to be taken at face value. We need to see the idea He was trying to relay and the type of speech that He was using to relay it. Then we may understand it.

The human spirits of the saved are at home with the Lord when their spirits depart their bodies (Php 1:21-23, 2 Co 5:1-8).

Let's examine these passages carefully:
1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 – Paul contrasts our current mortal bodies with the eternal bodies we will receive. He says he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord," but he does not say this happens immediately. Elsewhere, he explicitly states that believers receive their new bodies at Christ’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

If Paul believed in immediate presence with Christ after death, why did he emphasize the resurrection so much (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)? The most consistent biblical teaching is that death is a sleep, and believers will be with Christ at the resurrection, not before.

 

[1Tonne]

I agree with the post overall. Just want to pick on this last bit.
I believe believers (true abiding in Jesus believers) are with Christ today while alive on earth. Waiting until after death, waiting until the resurrection, may not at all be a good thing to do.
Rather, BE WITH CHRIST TODAY, every moment of every day. Abide in Him, suffer with Him, as written.

We who believe in Him do have Christ's spirit in us—walking with Him, suffering with Him, and living in His presence now. However, the question here is about what happens after death.

While we are spiritually with Christ now, the Bible teaches that after death, believers ‘sleep’ until the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Daniel 12:2). Our next conscious moment will be with Christ, but that does not mean we are immediately aware after death. Instead, we rest in sleep, awaiting the day He raises us to eternal life.

 

[1Tonne]

Just had a look through John 6 and noticed a couple of other verses where Jesus says that believers will be raised on the last day and not before. The evidence it pretty strong that there is no rapture. We are raised on the last day.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:53-54

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think that you are on the correct line with your thinking, but there are a few little things that need straightening up. You thinking is, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ, the martyrs, then He reigns from earth, then, going off your understanding, He leaves and then comes back again for the sinners.
The issue with this thinking is that there is only one time when Christ returns. Not twice.

Actually this is not quite what I believe...... let me show you what I believe through my understanding of the scriptures.

We both believe that the dead do not go to heaven until Jesus returns, they sleep in their graves (Ibeleive we agree on this?)

When Jesus returns all eyes will see Him- it's not a secret return

“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him” Revelation 1:7

When Jesus Comes it is for all His saints or righteous- everyone who is saved - both the dead and those living at that time.

The dead rise first and meet Him in the air and then the living who are in Christ meet Him in the air

1 Thes 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What happens at that time to those who are alive at the time of Christ’s Second Coming who are not saved?

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” Isaiah 11:4
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God Psalm 68:2
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Rev 20:5

Two separate resurrections, one for those who are dead in Christ
Rev 20:This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is for everyone who is saved and those living saved will reign with Christ a 1000 years. If there is a first resurrection it means there has to be a second .

What I don't believe is the millennium is on earth, I believe that it is in heaven.

When Jesus comes His feet don't touch the ground, the saints meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:16-17 this is important because Satan is going to imitate Christ Second Coming, and come as an angel of light but he can't raise people from the dead, he may have demons who claim they are from the dead, but not all dead meeting Christ in the air. The devils reign will be on earth and will deceive the majority Rev 12:9

When Jesus comes those alive who were not saved will be dead by God’s presence, Satan will be bound with no one to tempt and the earth will be desolate Jeremiah 4:23, 28

Jesus is going to take those in Christ to heaven for the 1000 years

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In heaven there will be a Judgement on the wicked/lost

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3

After the 1000 years will be the second resurrection for the lost

Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[fhansen]

You know that's not true.
However, if you are asking, rather than telling, that's a different story.
Are you asking? Would you like to know?

The soul dies, according to the Bible. Ezekiel 18:4
According to the churches, no, the soul does not die, as Satan would have us believe - Genesis 3:4, and they built on that by claiming that the soul will be tormented in an eternal fiery... Or, in some religions, be eternally separated from God - thus being alive in eternal darkness.
There are other beliefs surrounding the immortal soul doctrine, but I don't think you are asking about that.

An ancient teaching calls “original sin” the “death of the soul”. If anyone believes that Adam did not die the moment he ate of the fruit, then they haven’t discerned the truth of revelation accurately or the radical affect it had on humankind.

 

[Clare73]

Let's examine these passages carefully:
1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 – Paul contrasts our current mortal bodies with the eternal bodies we will receive. He says he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord," but he does not say this happens immediately. Elsewhere, he explicitly states that believers receive their new bodies at Christ’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

If Paul believed in immediate presence with Christ after death, why did he emphasize the resurrection so much (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)? The most consistent biblical teaching is that death is a sleep, and believers will be with Christ at the resurrection, not before.

 

[Clare73]

Let's examine these passages carefully:
1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ,"

Yes, let's. . .

That is precisely the meaning of Php 1:23. . .grammatically, "depart" and "be with Christ" are in the same series.

I will not be arguing the meaning of plain language with you.

but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 – Paul contrasts our current mortal bodies with the eternal bodies we will receive. He says he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord," but he does not say this happens immediately. Elsewhere, he explicitly states that believers receive their new bodies at Christ’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

If Paul believed in immediate presence with Christ after death, why did he emphasize the resurrection so much (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)?

I'm not going to spoon feed you.
I'm going to let you sort that out (hint: the human spirit is naked without its body and longs to be clothed with its body in the resurrection, 2 Co 5:1-8).

Perhaps you should pay more attention to 2 Co 5:1-8, where he "would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord," which is the intermediate disembodied state between death and resurrection, in which state "the believer is at home with the Lord."

The most consistent biblical teaching is that death is a sleep, and believers will be with Christ at the resurrection, not before.

Consistent with what. . .your church's teaching?

It's not consistent with the Bible in 2 Co 5:1-8, above.

 

[1Tonne]

Actually this is not quite what I believe...... let me show you what I believe through my understanding of the scriptures.

We both believe that the dead do not go to heaven until Jesus returns, they sleep in their graves (Ibeleive we agree on this?)

When Jesus returns all eyes will see Him- it's not a secret return

“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him” Revelation 1:7

When Jesus Comes it is for all His saints or righteous- everyone who is saved - both the dead and those living at that time.

The dead rise first and meet Him in the air and then the living who are in Christ meet Him in the air

1 Thes 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What happens at that time to those who are alive at the time of Christ who are not saved?

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” Isaiah 11:4
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God Psalm 68:2
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Rev 20:5

Two resurrections, one for those who are dead in Christ
Rev 20:This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is for everyone who is saved and those living saved will reign with Christ a 1000 years. If there is a first resurrection it means there has to be a second .

What I don't believe is the millennium is on earth, I believe that it is in heaven.

When Jesus comes His feet don't touch the ground, the saints meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:16-17 this is important because Satan is going to imitate Christ Second Coming, and come as an angel of light but he can't raise people from the dead. His reign will be on earth and will deceive the majority Rev 12:9

When Jesus comes those alive who were not saved will be dead, Satan will be bound with no one to tempt and the earth will be desolate Jeremiah 4:23, 28

Jesus is going to take those in Christ to heaven for the 1000 years

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In heaven there will be a Judgement

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3

After the 1000 years will be the second resurrection for the lost

Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thanks for explaining that. I was way off regarding your view. Sorry about that. But thanks for being open minded. I do like to listen to others' views in the hope that I may learn something. I even listen to Amillennialists and preterists (Not on this thread though as it is about a premill viewpoint). But so far, I have not been able to reconcile them.
We both have a very different understanding from each other. Look at scripture as literally as possible, and with this understanding I can see big holes in your thinking, but I will not point them out.
I would rather post on here what I believe and then have people poke holes in my understanding. Then if I can defend it fully with scripture, I hope that other people's views may change.
I have found that most people are very locked into their own end times understanding and if I attack other people's understanding too much, then it can create a barrier for them to understand what I think. (In saying this, I normally will attack the pre-tib, mid-trib rapture though as this type of understanding has normally been pasted down from other people who have learnt it without doing a thorough exegesis of scripture. So, it is kind of like bad hereditary exegesis. In other words, it is hereditary eisegesis.)
My view is that Christ returns with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist and then they reign for 1000 years. The rest of the dead and alive, and this includes believers, are not raised until the last day as Jesus said. (He said that the believers are not raised until the last day 3 times, and then Martha also said it once)

Yes, let's. . .

That is precisely the meaning of Php 1:23. . .grammatically, "depart" and "be with Christ" are in the same series.

I will not be arguing the meaning of plain language with you.

When you quoted me, you missed out the rest of the quote and so took it out of context. Please do not edit my quotes to suit your view. This is what I said, "1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)."
So, Philippians 1:23 does not support your view that we instantly go to heaven when we die.

I'm not going to spoon feed you.
I'm going to let you sort that out (hint: the human spirit is naked without its body and longs to be clothed with its body in the resurrection, 2 Co 5:1-8).

Perhaps you should pay more attention to 2 Co 5:1-8, where he "would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord," which is the intermediate disembodied state between death and resurrection, in which state "the believer is at home with the Lord."

Consistent with what. . .your church's teaching?

It's not consistent with the Bible in 2 Co 5:1-8, above.

You now sound as though you are being defensive and rude. There is no need for that.

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:1-2

Context Matters
1. “Away from the Body and at Home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8)
Paul is using comparative language about two ultimate states:
-Earthly life = Present in the body, away from the Lord (physically).
-Resurrection life = Present with the Lord (physically).

This does not prove that we are instantly with God. Paul simply says that he would prefer to be with the Lord rather than remain in this fallen, mortal body. But when does that happen? It is at the resurrection, as Paul himself clarifies in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.
So, please do a proper exegesis of Paul's writings. Do not take one verse and put your own understanding into it and then make it into a doctrine. Instead, find out what the author believed and what he was trying to express.

2. No Explicit “Intermediate State” Mentioned
Nowhere in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 does Paul state:
-That the soul is conscious after physical death until the resurection.
-That believers experience joy before the resurrection.
-That “home with the Lord” occurs before receiving the new body.

Paul’s consistent teaching is that resurrection is the believer’s hope (Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15), not a temporary disembodied existence with the Lord.

3. Paul’s own words in 2 Timothy 4:8 contradict the “Immediate Heaven” view.
Paul himself expects his reward to come at Christ’s return:
“There is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:8)

If Paul believed he would be with Christ immediately at death, why does he say he is waiting for the future day of reward?

Overall, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 does not prove an intermediate disembodied state. Paul expresses a desire to leave this mortal body for his resurrection body. It does not state that believers are a bodiless spirit with the Lord. The overwhelming testimony of Scripture is that believers sleep in death and awake at the resurrection (1 Thess 4:13-16, Daniel 12:2, John 11:11-14).