Heaven Or Hell

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks for explaining that. I was way off regarding your view. Sorry about that. But thanks for being open minded. I do like to listen to others' views in the hope that I may learn something.

Me too

We both have a very different understanding from each other. Look at scripture as literally as possible, and with this understanding I can see big holes in your thinking, but I will not point them out.

Please do, I used scripture to back up every one of my points.

My view is that Christ returns with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist and then they reign for 1000 years. The rest of the dead and alive, and this includes believers, are not raised until the last day as Jesus said. (He said that the believers are not raised until the last day 3 times, and then Martha also said it once)

Do you have scripture for this?

 

[Clare73]

When you quoted me, you missed out the rest of the quote and so took it out of context. Please do not edit my quotes to suit your view. This is what I said, "1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)."
So, Philippians 1:23 does not support your view that we instantly go to heaven when we die.

Misrepresentation. . .

Overall, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 does not prove an intermediate disembodied state.

You don't understand 2 Co 5:1-8.
That's above my pay grade.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Definition of a parable, "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"
These are stories used to illustrate an idea. It does not mean it is real.
Jesus used different types of speech to get His ideas across. Parabolic speech was one way, and in other instances, He used hyperbolic speech. And we see Him use hyperbolic, exaggerated speech in Matthew 18:9. So, not all things are to be taken at face value. We need to see the idea He was trying to relay and the type of speech that He was using to relay it. Then we may understand it.

But what is the meaning of Jesus's parable? It is not a parable it is a story telling the truth about what happens at death.

Let's look at some other scriptures:

Hell is a real place, where the once-living live on in torment. It is already existing for how could angels who sinned in the past be cast down to it if it did not already exist?

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;​

Here we see that people “die” then are still alive as they go down to the pit.

Psa 55:15 Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.​

In the next passage, we see hell rise up, it has a consciousness, and it delights in Satan’s fall to it.

Isa 14:9-11 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.'​

Jesus spoke of “hell fire”.

Mat_5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.​

He also said it was a dreadful thing to be cast into hell. Death is not dreadful but eternal torment is.

Mat_5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

The story of Lazarus is a clear example of what happens when we die, hell is describes as so hot even a drop of water would comfort, full of fire, and a place of torment:

Luk 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

 

[CoreyD]

So I am having a hard time following you.

Do you beleive those mentioned in Hebrews 11 are not going to be saved? I believe they were not raised because those dead in Christ will come forth from their grave when Jesus comes and will meet Him in the air at His Second Coming. I believe everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 will be saved by their faith

I actually had to take a look back, to make sure you were the one I has posted to.
Can you please take a look back at post #167, and tell me in a nutshell - a summary, what I believe, in relation to your question.

 

[CoreyD]

Ok, so you say the verse is a parable?

You don't believe it's a parable? Can you please explain why?

Parables are real-life stores to stress a point. Jesus used parables about farming, fishing, sheep, and goats.

Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?

Why would Jesus tell a story to confuse His listeners about hell? He had spoken about hellfire before.

The same reason he told all the other parables- Matthew 13:10-15, and the one at John 6, where he likened his body to manna from heaven, which if anyone did not eat his flesh and drink his blood, they could not get everlasting life... and a whole multitude of disciples said he was crazy, and left him.

Do you see the reason?
Jesus knew how to sift those who don't have ears to hear... that is, those who aren't humble enough to be taught.
We would expect that from someone wiser than Solomon, Remember how Solomon revealed the real mother of the living child? He used something confusing... Saw the child in two... After all, half a child is better than none, and both women can go home with something, right?
Wisdom. Jesus has it.

Mat18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Do you think Jesus was saying one should pluck out their eye and cast it from them?
How real life was that?

This is no parable it is reality.

Let's talk about some parables, Jesus spoke in Luke's Gospel, starting with the Prodigal.

 

[CoreyD]

What ? i.e. clarify. Certainly after they died, they could not meet anywhere until the resurrection, and they won't be happy at that point as their judgment is at hand.

Did you read the scriptures that went with that?
Take a look, and once you have done so, let me know. I have a question for you.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You don't believe it's a parable? Can you please explain why?

As I mentioned Jesus never used a "fake" story, as a parable, he used real ones. Why do you say Jesus's story is fictional? What point is he trying to stress in the story?

Do you believe the 'Prodigal Son' is a parable, or real life story? Why, or why not, and on what basis?

The prodigal son was a story about the father being willing to accept people who had strayed. The story of LAzarus, is all about the "fires: of hell. As Jesus spoke of elsewhere, look at how many times torment is used:


Luk 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Do you think Jesus was saying one should pluck out their eye and cast it from them?
How real life was that?

He was stressing how important it is to avoid hell fire. We should be willing to "harm" our natural life to see eternal life.

 

[CoreyD]

You’re referring to the 12 disciples being given authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. This means they will judge the Jewish people. I believe this authority is exclusive to the 12 disciples as a reward for following Jesus during His earthly ministry and sacrificing their lives for Him.
"And Jesus said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’" Matthew 19:28

There were only eleven disciples present Tonne. Where do you get 12?
The 12 tribes of Israel do not refer to the nation of Israel, and therefore is not referring to literally 12 tribe.
You can compare the tribes there with the literal 12 trines to verify they aren't the same.

The 12 tribes must therefore represent the nations, out of which the 144,000 are brought - Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 14:4
So, they will judge people on the earth.

Here’s an interesting observation (get your bible out as this is worth looking at): We know that Jesus judges everyone—except for the Jewish people as the disciples will judge them.
Now, in Revelation 20:4, we see that it is not Jesus who judges the martyrs; rather, judgment is given to others. This suggests that the disciples are the ones judging, and this in turn would mean that the martyrs being judged are Jewish.
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

There are other passages that suggest these martyrs who reign with Christ are Jewish too.
In Revelation 6:11, the martyrs are given white robes and told to wait until their full number is completed:
"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

So, the Gentiles are Jewish?
Recall that both Jews and Gentiles make up the body of Christ, and are spirit anointed adopted sons of God, who are the Saints. They are the heirs of the kingdom Galatians 3:29; Romans 8:14-17, and are neither Jew nor Gentile, but are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

Shortly after, in Revelation 7:4-8, John hears the number. It is the number of those who are sealed—144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. However, at this point, he does not see them; he only hears about them. It does not say what they are seal for. Many say that this seal is a seal of protection during the tribulation. But I do not think so. I believe the sealing is a mark of being chosen for the millennial reign rather than a form of earthly protection during the tribulation. This means they endure the tribulation but are ultimately set apart for their role in Christ’s kingdom.- You will see why I believe this as we continue.

Then, after John is told about the number of people, in Revelation 7:9, he actually sees them—but instead of a specific number, he describes a vast multitude that no one could count, made up of people from all nations, tribes, and languages.

The question that should then be asked is, how can these people be from the 12 tribes of Israel, yet they are described as coming from all over the world?
Answer: Before World War II, Jewish people were scattered worldwide but retained their identity. In 1948, the modern state of Israel was established, and many Jews began returning to their homeland. This explains why the 144,000 are described as coming "from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." They are Jewish people who have returned to their homeland.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes…Revelation 7:9, 13-14

A little further on in Revelation 7:13, an elder asks John a rhetorical question to make a point. This is rhetorical because he already knows the answer and asks it to emphasize the significance of the great multitude, the 144,000. His question is not meant to gain information but to guide John (and the reader) toward a deeper understanding of their identity and importance.
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"

To summarize:
-Revelation 6:11 – The martyrs receive white robes and must wait for the full number.
-Revelation 7:4-8 – John hears the number: 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel.
-Revelation 7:9-14 – John sees them as a vast multitude from all nations.
-Revelation 7:17 – John is asked a rhetorical question to emphasize that we already know who they are.

Therefore, in Revelation 20:4, when judgment is given to those seated on thrones, the ones being judged—the martyrs—are the 144,000 in white robes. They are the great multitude.

We can perhaps talk about the great multitude a little later. Unless you think it's relevant at this point.

 

[1Tonne]

Misrepresentation. . .

Please explain how I have misrepresented the verse.

You don't understand 2 Co 5:1-8.

I would say I understand it pretty well. Please explain where it says that as soon as we leave the body, we are with the Lord. I do not see it.

1Tonne said:
My view is that Christ returns with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist and then they reign for 1000 years. The rest of the dead and alive, and this includes believers, are not raised until the last day as Jesus said. (He said that the believers are not raised until the last day 3 times, and then Martha also said it once)

Do you have scripture for this?

Sure do.

The martyrs are the only ones who return with Christ
-In Revelation 20:4-6 Christ returns with the martyrs and no one else. They then reign for 1000 years.
In this text, there is no mention of any other believer. In fact, verse 5 is pretty specific. No one else is raised until the last day, only the martyrs are raised.
Some people try to make these verses figurative and say that it is every believer. But there is no mention of anyone being raised throughout the text apart from the martyrs.
Rev 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
So, it is the martyrs and no one else that come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

Jesus returns with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist
In the book of Revelation, we can identify who the martyrs are. They are given white robes.
Rev 6:11 "And a white robe was given to each of them"
A little further on in John's vision, in Revelation 7:13, an elder asks John a rhetorical question to make a point. This is rhetorical because he already knows the answer and asks it to emphasize the significance of the great multitude who are wearing white robes. His question is not meant to gain information but to guide John (and the reader) toward a deeper understanding of their identity and the importance of those in the white robes.
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"
So, we can clearly see that in Revelation, those who have the white clothing are the martyrs.
Then Revelation 19:11-21 has the account of when Jesus returns with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist. In this text it describes those who return with Him as having fine white linen. And in Revelation, we know that the only people who get given white robes are the martyrs.
"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh."
So, these verses line up with Rev 20-4-6 where it says that Jesus will return and reign for 1000 years with the martyrs and no one else.

Believers are raised on the last day. Not before.
-Jesus says several times that believers are raised on the last day. And we know that the last day is the day of judgment. This is where Jesus judges the world at the GWT judgement.

• John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
• John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
• Daniel 12:1-2 .....at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (The books are opened at the GWT judgement. So, the last day)

It's pretty clear that believers are raised on the last day and that the only people who return with Christ and defeat the antichrist are the martyrs.

 

[Clare73]

Please explain how I have misrepresented the verse.

I would say I understand it pretty well. Please explain where it says that as soon as we leave the body, we are with the Lord. I do not see it.

You do not understand it. . .that's above my pay grade.

You'll have to get someone else to spoon feed it to you.

 

[1Tonne]

But what is the meaning of Jesus's parable? It is not a parable it is a story telling the truth about what happens at death.

Let's look at some other scriptures:

Hell is a real place, where the once-living live on in torment. It is already existing for how could angels who sinned in the past be cast down to it if it did not already exist?

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;​

Here we see that people “die” then are still alive as they go down to the pit.

Psa 55:15 Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.​

In the next passage, we see hell rise up, it has a consciousness, and it delights in Satan’s fall to it.

Isa 14:9-11 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.'​

Jesus spoke of “hell fire”.

Mat_5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.​

He also said it was a dreadful thing to be cast into hell. Death is not dreadful but eternal torment is.

Mat_5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

The story of Lazarus is a clear example of what happens when we die, hell is describes as so hot even a drop of water would comfort, full of fire, and a place of torment:

Luk 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

You are doubling down on the Rich Man and Lazarus as a literal event and using other passages to reinforce your view. And as I have said in previous posts, if it is literal, then it is going against other bible teachings and also creating new ones such as people in heaven will be able to talk to those in Hell.
But let's look at your verses:

1. The Rich Man and Lazarus – Parable or Literal?
The first question is: Is this a parable or a literal account?
A. The Context of Luke 16

• Jesus had been teaching in parables (Luke 15:3, 8, 11; 16:1).
• The Pharisees, who believed wealth was a sign of God’s favor, were mocking Him (Luke 16:14).
• This story directly rebukes their love of money and their rejection of God’s word.

B. Does it fit with other parables?

• It follows common rabbinic storytelling traditions.
• Other parables also use named characters symbolically (e.g., the Prodigal Son).
• Key elements (dialogue between hell and heaven, the request for a drop of water) are not found anywhere else in Scripture as literal descriptions of the afterlife.

C. Contradictions if Taken Literally

• Can people in hell talk with people in paradise?
• Does a single drop of water bring relief in hell?
• Are people saved based only on being poor?

If we apply consistent biblical teaching on the afterlife, the story is best understood as a fictitious parable teaching the Pharisees about the consequences of ignoring God's word (Luke 16:31).

2. What About the Other Passages?

A. 2 Peter 2:4 – Are Angels in Hell?​

• The Greek word for hell here is Tartarus, not Hades or Gehenna.
• It refers to a holding place for fallen angels, not a fiery torment for human souls.
• Humans are never said to go to Tartarus—this passage is about angelic judgment, not human afterlife.

B. Psalm 55:15 – Do the Wicked Go to Hell Alive?​

• The Hebrew word for hell here is Sheol, meaning the grave.
• "Going down alive" is poetic—just like Korah and his followers "went down alive" into Sheol (Numbers 16:30-33).
• This does not support a conscious afterlife.

C. Isaiah 14:9-11 – Do the Dead Speak?​

• This is figurative prophetic language about Babylon’s downfall.
• If taken literally, it means dead kings sit on thrones and talk—which contradicts Ecclesiastes 9:5 (the dead know nothing).

D. Matthew 5:22, 29 – “Hell Fire”​

• The Greek word for hell here is Gehenna—the Valley of Hinnom, a literal place outside Jerusalem used as a symbol of total destruction.
• Jesus used Gehenna to symbolize final judgment, not immediate torment after death.

3. The Real Biblical Teaching on Death

A. Death is Sleep Until the Resurrection​

• “The dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
• “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake” (Daniel 12:2).
• “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep” (John 11:11-14).
• “The dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

If the dead are already alive and conscious, why would Jesus and Paul repeatedly describe death as sleep? If we take the parable of the Rich Man as Lazarus as literal, this creates a contradiction in the Bible.

B. Judgment Happens at the Resurrection, Not at Death​

• Jesus says, “The hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out” (John 5:28-29).
• Paul says, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Cor 5:10).
• “There is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim 4:8).

If people go to heaven or hell immediately, why wait for judgment? Another contradiction.

4. What Does This Mean for the Rich Man and Lazarus?

• The passage is not teaching doctrine on the afterlife—it is a parable rebuking the Pharisees.
• Consistent Scripture teaches that the dead sleep until resurrection.

You are stacking poetic, figurative, and parabolic passages together to build a case that believers go straight to heaven. But when we look at the clear, consistent teachings of the Bible, we see:

• The dead are unconscious until resurrection.
• Judgment happens at the resurrection, not immediately after death.
• The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, not a literal event.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1. The Rich Man and Lazarus – Parable or Literal?
The first question is: Is this a parable or a literal account?
A. The Context of Luke 16

• Jesus had been teaching in parables (Luke 15:3, 8, 11; 16:1).
• The Pharisees, who believed wealth was a sign of God’s favor, were mocking Him (Luke 16:14).
• This story directly rebukes their love of money and their rejection of God’s word.

So Jesus rebuked the Pharisee's love of money with a lie about the afterlife? Get real.

B. Does it fit with other parables?

• It follows common rabbinic storytelling traditions.
• Other parables also use named characters symbolically (e.g., the Prodigal Son).
• Key elements (dialogue between hell and heaven, the request for a drop of water) are not found anywhere else in Scripture as literal descriptions of the afterlife.

Hell is mentioned in many places as "fire" or "flame", what makes you think a drop of water may not be needed in such a thirsty place. Do you believe in a literal firey hell?

C. Contradictions if Taken Literally

• Can people in hell talk with people in paradise?
• Does a single drop of water bring relief in hell?
• Are people saved based only on being poor?

If we apply consistent biblical teaching on the afterlife, the story is best understood as a fictitious parable teaching the Pharisees about the consequences of ignoring God's word (Luke 16:31).

For a start the conversation was with the one "carrying" Lazurus to heaven, as he was passing hell. The same parable says:

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'​

Again if hell is full of fire, and water does not exist there, one may want even a drop of it to soothe their pain.

As for the comparison between rich and poor. Does this sound familiar:

Mat 25:31-43 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'​

 

[1Tonne]

There were only eleven disciples present Tonne. Where do you get 12?
The 12 tribes of Israel do not refer to the nation of Israel, and therefore is not referring to literally 12 tribe.
You can compare the tribes there with the literal 12 trines to verify they aren't the same.

The 12 tribes must therefore represent the nations, out of which the 144,000 are brought - Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 14:4
So, they will judge people on the earth.

The wording in Matthew 19:28 indicates that 12 disciples were present when Jesus made this statement. This happened before Judas betrayed Jesus, meaning he was still part of the group at that time. If you’re referring to a later event (after Judas’ betrayal), then yes, he was no longer among the 12. However, at the moment Jesus spoke these words, all 12 were there. Later, Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26) to restore the number to twelve. Thus, there are still 12 disciples.

Regarding the 12 tribes of Israel, Revelation 7:4-8 explicitly names them, listing specific tribal divisions. If this were symbolic of all nations, we would expect broader language rather than a detailed breakdown of the tribes. The idea that the 12 tribes in Revelation must represent Gentile nations contradicts the clear wording of the text. The passage speaks specifically of Jewish people.

Revelation 5:9-10 does mention people from every nation being redeemed, but this simply reflects how the Jewish people were scattered throughout the world before Israel became a nation in 1948. Many returned from different countries, speaking different languages, yet they remained Jewish.

So, while believers from all nations will be part of God’s kingdom, the judgment Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19:28 was given specifically to the 12 disciples, and it was directed at the 12 tribes of Israel, not the nations as a whole.

So, the Gentiles are Jewish?
Recall that both Jews and Gentiles make up the body of Christ, and are spirit anointed adopted sons of God, who are the Saints. They are the heirs of the kingdom Galatians 3:29; Romans 8:14-17, and are neither Jew nor Gentile, but are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

No. Gentiles are not Jews.
While Gentiles and Jews are all a part of the body of Christ, Revelation 6 and 7, as well as Revelation 20:4-6 are speaking specifically about Jewish people who are martyred and come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years. Not Gentiles.

 

[1Tonne]

You'll have to get someone else to spoon feed it to you.

No need to be rude.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@1Tonne
Thanks for the response.

But hoping if you can clarify your position because I do not see its what the scriptures say

You say this

Believers are raised on the last day. Not before.

And then quote

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power

But then say

So, it is the martyrs and no one else that come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

So are you saying there is only the martyrs saved and everyone else lost? I don’t see any scripture that says this. This also puts only those already dead, as receiving the mark of the beast or God’s seal and can’t buy or sell, when that is a future event for end times which I believe we are close to.

There is only 1 resurrection for ALL the saved- blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. The second one after the millennium is for the lost. The dead, not the dead in Christ, the dead because they were not part of the first resurrection and we are only blessed and holy if we are part of the first, not the second after the 1000 years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Which is why we only see those dead in Christ and those in Christ who are alive at His Second Coming meet Christ in the air 1 Thess 4:16-17 and go up. John 14:3 because the earth will be desolate, only Satan and his angles bound with no one to tempt because all those alive that are not saved at Christ’s Second Coming will die from His presence, will not be able to stand in His Glory, there is only one resurrection for the believers, on the last day when Jesus Comes for the Second time in all His Glory.

Scripture says the saved will be

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Theres only two groups, not three the wheat and the tares, saved and the lost Rev 22:14-15

The antichrist is already here and I believe it’s who all the reformers believed it was which fits Dan 7, Dan 8, Rev 13, 17 etc. The antichrist also means in place of Christ. The devil, false prophet and the antichrist will all be destroyed along with all the sinners at the second resurrection for the lost Rev 20:7-15. After all sin and sinners destroyed God will wipe away all tears from the saints(saved) and will make a New Heaven and New Earth and sin and rebellion will never rise up again against God. He will restore Eden and restore things back to His perfect plan before the devil through sin hijacked this world.

 

[CoreyD]

Funny thing is, I do not believe my church would allow me to teach. Sad.

They won't allow you to teach in public, or in the congregation?
Jesus sent his followers out to teach and make disciples. Matthew 28:19, 20
All followers of Christ are obligated to do that.
Not everyone can be a teacher in the congregation. That was by appointment. Ephesians 4:11, 12

They do gain resurrection. John 5:28-29 says, "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
So, those who are not God's will come out from the graves to a resurrection of "krisis" (of damnation)

Do you have a Greek interlinear?
Check out that verse 28.
The Greek word translated tombs, is derived from μνῆμα (mnēma), which means "a memorial" or "a remembrance."
So Jesus had more than tombs in mind.

Considering all the scriptures in harmony, Jesus was in line with Paul, who said, only the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected. Acts 24:15. Not the wicked, of whom the Bible says their hope perishes.

Sorry. I am probably guilty. I do try and read but limited on time and so I skim.

I believe that this is talking about the second death where those who do not believe are cast into the lake of fire. This second death is different from our first death as the people there will have consciousness. They will feel everything. Daniels 12:2 speaks about how they have everlasting shame and contempt. To feel contempt, you have to be conscious.

The soul dies, according to the Bible. Do you disagree?

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2

I think that you are on the correct line with your thinking, but there are a few little things that need straightening up. You thinking is, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ, the martyrs, then He reigns from earth,

I do not believe Jesus reigns from earth, although I am interested in seeing where you got that thought.
You aren't skimming, are you?

then, going off your understanding, He leaves and then comes back again for the sinners.

That is indeed far off my understanding.... depending on what you mean by "for the sinners"

The issue with this thinking is that there is only one time when Christ returns. Not twice.

You have a Bible. Let's take our Bible and do a count.

1. John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
2. Matthew 24:30; Matthew 25: 31; Matthew 26:64; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

From my reading, I counted 2 comings - One, when he returns to take home the Saints. Two, when he comes to vent God's wrath against the nations - known as Armageddon. Revelation 16:14-16

Don't you count two as well?

I believe He brings back the dead in Christ with Him, the martyrs and reigns with them.

For 1,000 years, yes.

Next Satan is set free, God destroys Satan.

Yes. Satan is released, for a short time, to mislead those not worthy, ad God destroys him, when his time is up. Agreed.

Then at this point, the very last day. Christ ascends into the clouds and raises all peoples.

Where do you read this?

That is both dead and alive, believer and non-believer, and they go to judgement.

Can you provide scriptural references please.

1 Cor 15:23 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."
This says that Christ was first raised from the dead, then next the martyrs are raised (Rev 20:4-6) at His second coming. Rev 20 says that they reign with Him for 1000 years. Then verse 24 speaks about the very end and how all the rest of the believers, dead and alive (the kingdom), are raised. "Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."

"verse 24 speaks about the very end and how all the rest of the believers, dead and alive (the kingdom), are raised"?
I'm not reading that.
Can you please quote it word for word. Which translation are you reading from?

I understand the view that Israel became spiritual rather than literal, but I believe Revelation refers to the 12 tribes in a literal sense. Here’s why:

1. The Specificity of the 12 Tribes in Revelation 7
   The passage doesn’t use symbolic language but explicitly names 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. If this were symbolic for the Church, we would expect a different description—perhaps referencing all believers rather than listing individual tribes.
2. Lost Tribes vs. God's Sovereignty
   Some argue that certain tribes no longer exist, but from God’s perspective, they do. Even if human records have lost track of them, God has not. He knows exactly who belongs to each tribe. The scattering of Israel doesn’t mean the tribes ceased to exist, only that they were dispersed.
3. Distinction Between Israel and the Church
   While Gentiles are grafted into God’s covenant (Romans 11), the Bible still maintains a distinction between Israel and the Church. Paul speaks of “Israel according to the flesh” (1 Corinthians 10:18), showing that national Israel still has a role.
4. Jesus' Promise to the Disciples
   In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the 12 disciples they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. If Israel were purely spiritual and indistinguishable from the Church, this promise would lose its clear meaning.
5. God’s Faithfulness to Israel
   Even with Israel’s disobedience, God’s covenant with them remains. Romans 11:29 says, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” If national Israel was permanently replaced, there would be no need for Paul to say that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26).

So, while the Church includes both Jews and Gentiles, I believe the 144,000 in Revelation are specifically Jewish believers from literal Israel, as described in the text.

If that's what you believe.
So, do you believe they get a literal mark on their forehead?

Luke 22:28-30 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
The corresponding verse for this in Matthew is Matt 19:28
"And Jesus said to them, ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’"
This is simply saying that Jesus gave the disciples authority to judge the Jewish people. So, Jesus judges everyone at the GWT judgement, except for the Jewish people. They will be judged by the disciples.
(If you read Post 251, it will show you how we can tell that the martyrs, the 144,000 and the great multitude are all Jewish and that they are judged by the disciples.)
Check out Post 251.

NOTE: Even though I do not agree with your content in your post, I "Liked" it because I can see that you are open and thinking well. This is a rear thing. Good on you.

Thank you. However, rear things are usually considered to be not doing so well.
I think rare is better.

Definition of a parable, "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"
These are stories used to illustrate an idea. It does not mean it is real.
Jesus used different types of speech to get His ideas across. Parabolic speech was one way, and in other instances, He used hyperbolic speech. And we see Him use hyperbolic, exaggerated speech in Matthew 18:9. So, not all things are to be taken at face value. We need to see the idea He was trying to relay and the type of speech that He was using to relay it. Then we may understand it.

Let's examine these passages carefully:
1. Philippians 1:21-23 – Paul expresses a personal desire to "depart and be with Christ," but he does not specify an immediate conscious state after death. He knows that his next waking moment after death will be with Christ at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
2. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 – Paul contrasts our current mortal bodies with the eternal bodies we will receive. He says he would rather be "absent from the body and present with the Lord," but he does not say this happens immediately. Elsewhere, he explicitly states that believers receive their new bodies at Christ’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

If Paul believed in immediate presence with Christ after death, why did he emphasize the resurrection so much (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)? The most consistent biblical teaching is that death is a sleep, and believers will be with Christ at the resurrection, not before.

Agreed.

 

[CoreyD]

Actually this is not quite what I believe...... let me show you what I believe through my understanding of the scriptures.

We both believe that the dead do not go to heaven until Jesus returns, they sleep in their graves (Ibeleive we agree on this?)

When Jesus returns all eyes will see Him- it's not a secret return

“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him” Revelation 1:7

When Jesus Comes it is for all His saints or righteous- everyone who is saved - both the dead and those living at that time.

The dead rise first and meet Him in the air and then the living who are in Christ meet Him in the air

1 Thes 4:6 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What happens at that time to those who are alive at the time of Christ’s Second Coming who are not saved?

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” Isaiah 11:4
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God Psalm 68:2
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Rev 20:5

Two separate resurrections, one for those who are dead in Christ
Rev 20:This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is for everyone who is saved and those living saved will reign with Christ a 1000 years. If there is a first resurrection it means there has to be a second .

What I don't believe is the millennium is on earth, I believe that it is in heaven.

When Jesus comes His feet don't touch the ground, the saints meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:16-17 this is important because Satan is going to imitate Christ Second Coming, and come as an angel of light but he can't raise people from the dead. His reign will be on earth and will deceive the majority Rev 12:9

When Jesus comes those alive who were not saved will be dead by God’s presence, Satan will be bound with no one to tempt and the earth will be desolate Jeremiah 4:23, 28

Jesus is going to take those in Christ to heaven for the 1000 years

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In heaven there will be a Judgement on the wicked/lost

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. ... And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4).
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3

After the 1000 years will be the second resurrection for the lost

Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Oops. I though @1Tonne was addressing me throughout that post.
I didn't notice the user names. Sorry about that folks.

 

[1Tonne]

So Jesus rebuked the Pharisee's love of money with a lie about the afterlife? Get real.



Hell is mentioned in many places as "fire" or "flame", what makes you think a drop of water may not be needed in such a thirsty place. Do you believe in a literal firey hell?



For a start the conversation was with the one "carrying" Lazurus to heaven, as he was passing hell. The same parable says:

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'​

Again if hell is full of fire, and water does not exist there, one may want even a drop of it to soothe their pain.

As for the comparison between rich and poor. Does this sound familiar:

Mat 25:31-43 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'​

Teachers of the day often used fictional stories to relay a concept. This does not mean that the person speaking the story was lying. It is called parabolic speech. Even Jesus did this. He used many types of speech to relay ideas.
But, by the sounds of it, you are set on parables being literal. Blessing.

 

[armchairscholar]

As a rough rule of thumb, I think "good people" are more likely to go to heaven than "bad people".

But as usual Christ managed to turn some things on their head. The Pharisees thought they were "good people" but Christ effectively condemned them saying that "prostitutes and tax-collectors are getting in ahead of you."

What's not said is the word "repentant" - It was "repentant" prostitutes and tax-collectors Christ was referring to. When the tax-collector Zacchaeus was forgiven by Christ, he repented and promised to pay back any dishonest gain. The woman who wiped Christ's feet with her hair and poured perfume on him was by tradition a prostitute, but she repented. One thief on the cross repented, and Christ stated he would be in paradise with Him that day. But the Gospels are silent about the fate of the other "bad man". He was probably more than just a thief - I don't think the Romans crucified for theft alone.

The Father might have welcomed the prodigal son with open arms and Christ said there is more joy in heaven over one unrepentant sinner than over a whole bunch of good people who don't need to repent. The assumption though is the good people will still get into heaven as the Father said to His other son - "everything I have is yours".

The prodigal son had to come to his senses first, and repent. I was watching an Australian soapie in passing (my wife watches it religiously if you'll pardon the pun). In one episode a character said to a pastor about someone who was behaving unethically that "You know about the prodigal son?" I almost felt like saying aloud "But he has to come to his senses first!"

Isaiah 45:18 reads...
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

But it was just a soapie ("Home and Away" for the record) and I wasn't the script writer. If I'd been the script writer, that would have been the pastor's immediate reply.

I really appreciated Bob's thoughtful reflection on repentance. He nails a crucial theological point that's often missed in popular culture!

The Gospel narratives consistently emphasize not just forgiveness but the transformation that comes through genuine repentance. That prodigal son example is spot-on - the father's welcome was contingent on the son "coming to his senses." This pattern appears throughout Scripture, from the tax collector Zacchaeus's economic restitution to the woman washing Jesus's feet.

What's particularly interesting from a historical perspective is how Jesus consistently challenged the religious establishment of His day. Those "prostitutes and tax collectors" represented the most despised social classes in first-century Jewish society. By elevating their repentant hearts above the self-righteous Pharisees, Jesus was making a radical statement about spiritual authenticity that would have shocked His audience.

When we examine these texts in their historical context, we see Jesus establishing a new covenant based on heart transformation rather than mere rule-following or social status.

 

[1Tonne]

They won't allow you to teach in public, or in the congregation?
Jesus sent his followers out to teach and make disciples. Matthew 28:19, 20
All followers of Christ are obligated to do that.
Not everyone can be a teacher in the congregation. That was by appointment. Ephesians 4:11, 12

Sadly, when I first started sharing the Gospel, some leaders told me that in this day and age we are not to go out and share the Gospel in public as this can scare people away from Church. Instead, because society has changed, we are to make friends with people and then once you have made a trusting relationship, we can then share the Gospel. They told me that by making friends, we have less chance of scaring people away. But the funny thing is, to those who do not believe, the Gospel is offensive and if you say it in its fullness, many people will not like you. The bible says that. Especially if you show people that they have sinned against God. That is offensive. But Jesus did the same and He said that the world hated Him because of it.
I chose to obey God over what the leaders said, and for a while, I was talked badly about in a bad way. But now, some are slowly changing their views.
NOTE: I can start talking to a person and within 2 minutes, I have created enough rapport to be able to share the Gospel. We do not have to wait for months and months and become their best friend. In fact, to know of God, everlasting life and everlasting death and not to warn people of it, that is unloving. We need to tell people as soon as possible.
I also understand that we cannot always tell the Gospel straight away to every person that we meet. But when the opportunity arises, we should jump at it.

Do you have a Greek interlinear?
Check out that verse 28.
The Greek word translated tombs, is derived from μνῆμα (mnēma), which means "a memorial" or "a remembrance."
So Jesus had more than tombs in mind.

I believe that the word "mnémeion" simply means grave or tomb. A grave is a place of rememberance.

Considering all the scriptures in harmony, Jesus was in line with Paul, who said, only the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected. Acts 24:15. Not the wicked, of whom the Bible says their hope perishes.

I am not sure what you mean. Those who are unrighteous are wicked.

The soul dies, according to the Bible. Do you disagree?

Yes. I do disagree. I do not believe in annihilationism.
Many argue that the wicked are annihilated, ceasing to exist after judgment. However, Scripture consistently describes their fate as one of ongoing, conscious punishment. Here are a few key reasons why I believe the Bible teaches eternal consciousness for those in hell:

1. The Worm That Never Dies – A Metaphor for the Person
Jesus says in Mark 9:48, referring to hell:
"where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
Some interpret this as a reference to literal maggots consuming corpses. However, this phrase is rooted in Isaiah 66:24, which describes the wicked being viewed with horror. Importantly, the worm is "their" worm, indicating personal identity. So, their soul.
A strong parallel exists in Psalm 22:6, where the suffering Psalmist declares: "But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people." Here we see him berating himself, knowing that he is viewed as not a good person.
Here, "worm" refers to the person experiencing humiliation and suffering—not an actual maggot. Likewise, in Mark 9:48, "their worm" suggests the wicked themselves persist in disgrace and torment.

2. Daniel 12:2 – Everlasting Shame Requires Consciousness
Daniel speaks of two eternal destinies: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)
To experience contempt, one must be aware. The wicked do not simply vanish; they exist in a state of eternal disgrace, implying consciousness.

4. Revelation 14:9-11 – The Wicked Experience Eternal Torment
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image." (Revelation 14:11)
Torment that rises "forever and ever" and the phrase "they have no rest" suggests ongoing consciousness. The language is identical to Revelation 4:8, where the saints worship God "forever and ever"—so if eternal worship is conscious, why wouldn’t eternal punishment be?

5. The Lake of Fire – A Place of Ongoing Punishment
In Revelation 20:10, the devil, beast, and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever."
Then in Revelation 20:15, all whose names are not in the Book of Life are cast into the same lake of fire. If the devil and his followers are consciously tormented forever, why would the fate of the wicked be any different?

The Bible consistently portrays hell as a place of eternal, conscious punishment. The wicked are not simply destroyed but exist in a state of torment, shame, and contempt. While this is a difficult doctrine, it aligns with God’s justice and holiness.

I do not believe Jesus reigns from earth, although I am interested in seeing where you got that thought.
You aren't skimming, are you?

Yes. I believe that Jesus will reign from earth for 1000 years with the martyrs.

Jesus' 1,000-Year Reign with the Martyrs: A Biblical Perspective
As a historic premillennialist, I believe that Jesus will literally reign on earth for 1,000 years, and that He will rule alongside the martyrs—those who were killed for their faith. This view is clearly supported by Scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.

1. Revelation 20:4-6
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

This passage is pivotal in understanding the 1,000-year reign of Christ. It clearly states that the martyrs who were faithful to Christ will be resurrected and reign with Him for a literal 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection, and they will have a special position as priests of God.

2. Revelation 5:10
“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
This passage confirms that believers, including martyrs, will reign on earth, supporting the idea that the millennial reign will take place on earth rather than in heaven.

3. Isaiah 2:2-4
“Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths.’ For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.”

This prophecy from Isaiah describes the millennial kingdom where Jesus will reign from Jerusalem, and peace will prevail among the nations.

4. Revelation 20:7-10
“When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
These passages further solidifies the literal 1,000-year reign, ending with Satan being released for a short time and then the final defeat of him and his forces, who will be destroyed after the millennium.

5. Revelation 19:11-Rev 20:6
This passage of text speaks of when Jesus returns and defeats the antichrist who is on earth. Then chapter 20 is a continuation after this battle. He sets up rulership and reigns with the martyrs for 1000 years.

6. Zechariah 14:4-9
Zechariah prophesies about the Lord's return to earth to establish His reign:
"In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azal; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.”

This passage speaks of Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives, where His feet will stand, and He will reign as King over all the earth.

7. Zech 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
This states that Jesus will be ruling from Jeruselam.

8. Jude 1:14-15
Jude refers to the return of the Lord with His holy ones:
“It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’”

This passage alludes to Jesus coming with His holy ones to execute judgment on the earth, which corresponds to His second coming to establish His reign.

9. Revelation 17:14

This passage speaks of Jesus' ultimate victory over His enemies, where He will reign with His army:
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

This highlights the Lamb's (Jesus’) victory over the forces of evil, and that those who are with Him—referring to the martyrs—will participate in His reign and victory.

The Bible clearly describes Jesus returning in the clouds with His army (the heavenly host, angels, and redeemed believers) to defeat the Antichrist, judge the nations, and establish His reign on earth. Passages like Revelation 19:11-16, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:4-9, and Jude 1:14-15 all point to this event, affirming that Jesus will return physically to earth to establish His kingdom.