The Power Of One Article

[keras]

It's pretty explicit, then they appear with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, and Elijah will return from heaven before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.
and he goes back to heaven too as one of the 2 witnesses after the beast kills him

It is never said that Elijah, or anyone else. will live, or are; actually living in heaven.
The 2 Witnesses will be raised by Jesus at His Return, along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4-5 They will live in Jerusalem.

Look at the story of how Saul brought up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:12-15 He came up from 'sleeping' in the earth.

It is wrong and unhealthy to believe we Christians will go to heaven. We are made for the earth and even at the end of all physical things, those worthy will live with God on a new earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is never said that Elijah, or anyone else. will live, or are; actually living in heaven.
The 2 Witnesses will be raised by Jesus at His Return, along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4-5 They will live in Jerusalem.

Look at the story of how Saul brought up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:12-15 He came up from 'sleeping' in the earth.

It is wrong and unhealthy to believe we Christians will go to heaven. We are made for the earth and even at the end of all physical things, those worthy will live with God on a new earth.

it says right in the text that Elijah went to heaven without dying, and Enoch was taken by God, without dying, and the bible said he was translated to not see death (Hebrews 11:5). Where was Enoch taken by God, if not heaven, that he's been living for the past 5000 years? Oh, and btw, he'd have had to have been above the flood water since he was taken before the flood and was not on the Ark.

It's unhealthy to make a doctrine out of a single verse out of context when the bible refutes that doctrine directly multiple times.

 

[keras]

It's unhealthy to make a doctrine out of a single verse out of context when the bible refutes that doctrine directly multiple times.

The text I go by is John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. Also supported by other scripture.
I have yet to see any definitive refutation of Jesus' Words. People who try to do that are taking a huge risk!
It is purely assumption that Enoch and Elijah live in heaven. Or that any human will ever go there to live.

The idea of a rapture, is contrary to what all the Prophets have said about Gods Plans for His people.
Plus the many exhortations of how we must stand firm and endure until the end.

 

[Aaron112]

The text I go by is John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. Also supported by other scripture.

Not a contradiction, perhaps, but kindly check the accuracy of the quote - it does not appear the same as biblegateway quotes in over twenty translations.

Then also, compare timewise/ or any which way : (same or different heaven?)
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

Revelation 7:
KJV:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NKJV:
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,
“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,
and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We see one difference in comparing the translations; the modern version adds the article 'the', changing the meaning to the saints who have gone through great tribulation beginning in Judea shortly after Pentecost, to some future event that people refer to as 'The Great Tribulation", which apparently the Church will not experience if they are gathered before said tribulation. So who are being persecuted during "The Great Tribulation"?

Note: the article 'the' is not in the original. Surely an agenda is afoot.

The Jews. They lost their homeland. The Gentiles trampled Jerusalem underfoot (Luk. 21:24) but (some) washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages [Gentiles], standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands (Rev. 7:9);"

"I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).'"

"...for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luk. 21:23b–24)."

Luk. 21:23b–24 is a parallel verse with Mat. 24:21, taken from the same part of the Olivet Discourse: "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again." The great tribulation of Mat. 24:21 is the same as the times of the Gentiles of Luk. 21:24, which makes sense since the Gentiles are the ones who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).

"Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations [Gentiles]; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months (Rev. 11:2)."

 

[Jamdoc]

The text I go by is John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. Also supported by other scripture.
I have yet to see any definitive refutation of Jesus' Words. People who try to do that are taking a huge risk!
It is purely assumption that Enoch and Elijah live in heaven. Or that any human will ever go there to live.

The idea of a rapture, is contrary to what all the Prophets have said about Gods Plans for His people.
Plus the many exhortations of how we must stand firm and endure until the end.

it's not purely assumption when the bible explicitly says Elijah was taken up into heaven in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind!
it's not purely assumption when Revelation 19:1 explicitly says there are people in heaven!

 

[keras]

it's not purely assumption when the bible explicitly says Elijah was taken up into heaven in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind!
it's not purely assumption when Revelation 19:1 explicitly says there are people in heaven!

The Bible never says that anyone ever lives in heaven. Elijah set a letter after he was relocated. 2 Chron 21:12
Do you think there is a mail service from heaven to earth?

Does Revelation 19:1-3 say those who praise God are living people. No; they are obviously the Christian martyrs, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. They ask God to vindicate them; Rev19:2-3, and to avenge their deaths. Revelation 6:10

Rapture to heaven believers need a good dose of reality. Heaven is where God and His angels live. Earth is our place and we have work to do here.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Bible never says that anyone ever lives in heaven. Elijah set a letter after he was relocated. 2 Chron 21:12
Do you think there is a mail service from heaven to earth?

Does Revelation 19:1-3 say those who praise God are living people. No; they are obviously the Christian martyrs, whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. They ask God to vindicate them; Rev19:2-3, and to avenge their deaths. Revelation 6:10

Rapture to heaven believers need a good dose of reality. Heaven is where God and His angels live. Earth is our place and we have work to do here.

Chronicles is not Chronologically after Kings... it's telling the same events from a different source

 

[keras]

Chronicles is not Chronologically after Kings... it's telling the same events from a different source

Your failure to address my points, is noted.

The generally held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die and the really fanciful idea of a rapture to heaven, are false teachings. They are lies that people have accepted, to their discredit. Only after the Millennium, will anyone be made immortal and God will live with them. Rev 21:1-7

 

[Jamdoc]

Your failure to address my points, is noted.

The generally held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die and the really fanciful idea of a rapture to heaven, are false teachings. They are lies that people have accepted, to their discredit. Only after the Millennium, will anyone be made immortal and God will live with them. Rev 21:1-7

It was addressing your point. You were claiming that Elijah sent a letter AFTER he'd been taken to heaven in a whirlwind in 2 Kings 2, because you see 2 Chronicles as being chronologically after 2 Kings.
This is not the case, 2 Chronicles is going over the same period of time as 2 Kings, from different sources.
So the letter from Elijah would have been written prior to his being taken to heaven, not after.
Elijah will come back before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
He hasn't been living on Earth for the past 2700 years.
Much less Enoch living on Earth for the past 5000 years.

Go ahead, let's hear the hot take on where you think Enoch was during the flood.
treading water?

 

[keras]

It was addressing your point. You were claiming that Elijah sent a letter AFTER he'd been taken to heaven in a whirlwind in 2 Kings 2, because you see 2 Chronicles as being chronologically after 2 Kings.
This is not the case, 2 Chronicles is going over the same period of time as 2 Kings, from different sources.
So the letter from Elijah would have been written prior to his being taken to heaven, not after.
Elijah will come back before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
He hasn't been living on Earth for the past 2700 years.
Much less Enoch living on Earth for the past 5000 years.

Go ahead, let's hear the hot take on where you think Enoch was during the flood.
treading water?

No doubt that Enoch and Elijah are special cases. My belief is they are dead and 'sleep' until the GWT Judgment along with everyone else/
The case of David, Acts 13:25 and of Moses - buried by God, reinforces this.

The Spirit of Elijah will be present before Jesus Returns, but as he was personified in John the Baptiser, a normal living man; empowered by God.

 

[Jamdoc]

No doubt that Enoch and Elijah are special cases. My belief is they are dead and 'sleep' until the GWT Judgment along with everyone else/
The case of David, Acts 13:25 and of Moses - buried by God, reinforces this.

The Spirit of Elijah will be present before Jesus Returns, but as he was personified in John the Baptiser, a normal living man; empowered by God.

Yeah I don't do 7th day adventism soul sleep. What is shown in Revelation is conscious souls, and conscious people.

 

[keras]

Not a contradiction, perhaps, but kindly check the accuracy of the quote - it does not appear the same as biblegateway quotes in over twenty translations.

Then also, compare timewise/ or any which way : (same or different heaven?)
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

I did quote John 3:13 from memory. Here it is correctly in the Revised English Bible;
No one has gone up into heaven except the one who came down from heaven; the Son of Man who is in heaven.
This makes any belief of anyone living in heaven null and void. Even John saw what he did in the spirit, not physically, Rev 4:1-3, just in a vision.

2 Cor 12:2 is a similar situation.
Believers in a 'rapture to heaven' are seriously deluded. We have the Great Commission to do. Matthew 28::19-20...until the end of time.

Yeah I don't do 7th day adventism soul sleep. What is shown in Revelation is conscious souls, and conscious people.

I am not SDA.
I quote what the Bible tells us; Acts 13:36....David sleeps.....

 

[Jamdoc]

I did quote John 3:13 from memory. Here it is correctly in the Revised English Bible;
No one has gone up into heaven except the one who came down from heaven; the Son of Man who is in heaven.
This makes any belief of anyone living in heaven null and void. Even John saw what he did in the spirit, not physically, Rev 4:1-3, just in a vision.

2 Cor 12:2 is a similar situation.
Believers in a 'rapture to heaven' are seriously deluded. We have the Great Commission to do. Matthew 28::19-20...until the end of time.

I am not SDA.
I quote what the Bible tells us; Acts 13:36....David sleeps.....

Yet we have several examples of consciousness after death, Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, the 5th seal Martyrs, and Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord, Jesus told the condemned on the cross next to Him that TODAY they would be in Paradise together, not "you'll soul sleep until the resurrection", and the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

The body sleeps but the spirit is conscious

 

[keras]

Yet we have several examples of consciousness after death, Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, the 5th seal Martyrs, and Paul said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord, Jesus told the condemned on the cross next to Him that TODAY they would be in Paradise together, not "you'll soul sleep until the resurrection", and the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

The body sleeps but the spirit is conscious

People will, of course; believe whatever they like to.

For me, I do not think those souls under the Altar are living consciously.
There are millions of martyred Christians; Could be a very tight squeeze!

That they cry out at times, is purely a Spiritual thing, it cannot be a physical multitude. As Moses and Elijah were on the Mount.
This whole issue is part and parcel of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Never going to happen - the only way to get there is to have your head chopped off. Revelation 20:4

Note very carefully Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years is over......
What are all the dead? DEAD.

 

[Jamdoc]

People will, of course; believe whatever they like to.

For me, I do not think those souls under the Altar are living consciously.
There are millions of martyred Christians; Could be a very tight squeeze!

That they cry out at times, is purely a Spiritual thing, it cannot be a physical multitude. As Moses and Elijah were on the Mount.
This whole issue is part and parcel of the 'rapture to heaven' theory. Never going to happen - the only way to get there is to have your head chopped off. Revelation 20:4

Note very carefully Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years is over......
What are all the dead? DEAD.

you missed the "rest" in your quote.
you're not helping your case

I still want to hear where you think Enoch was during the flood.

 

[keras]

you missed the "rest" in your quote.
you're not helping your case

I still want to hear where you think Enoch was during the flood.

The ;rest' - as in Revelation 20:5, refers to all the dead since Adam. The exception is the GT martyrs, who are as Rev 20:4 says; nrught back to life. That is; physical, mortal life, from which they can die again. Rev 20:6
My case is supported by plain scripture, those who think there will be a general resurrection at the Return, are in violation of scripture.

Re Enoch; itis just assumption to think he is alive in heaven.
If he is, then scripture is contradicted. John 7:34, +

 

[Jamdoc]

The ;rest' - as in Revelation 20:5, refers to all the dead since Adam. The exception is the GT martyrs, who are as Rev 20:4 says; nrught back to life. That is; physical, mortal life, from which they can die again. Rev 20:6
My case is supported by plain scripture, those who think there will be a general resurrection at the Return, are in violation of scripture.

Re Enoch; itis just assumption to think he is alive in heaven.
If he is, then scripture is contradicted. John 7:34, +

Where was Enoch during the flood?
go on now

tell us.

Where did God take him before the flood? Because he wasn't on the Ark.

 

[keras]

Where was Enoch during the flood?
go on now

tell us.

Where did God take him before the flood? Because he wasn't on the Ark.

You are what is called in the legal profession: frivolous and vexatious.

Even if Enoch is in heaven, which I dispute because the Bible never says that, it would not support dead or living people today to go and live in heaven.
We are made to live on the earth. Isaiah 45:18 God has angels in heaven.

 

[Jamdoc]

You are what is called in the legal profession: frivolous and vexatious.

Even if Enoch is in heaven, which I dispute because the Bible never says that, it would not support dead or living people today to go and live in heaven.
We are made to live on the earth. Isaiah 45:18 God has angels in heaven.

I'm asking a question because I know the answer, and know that you know the answer and are afraid to say it because it contradicts your doctrine.

the bible is explicit that the Lord took him, that he did not die, in Genesis, and in Hebrews 11 it says he was translated, that he would not see death, that is, he was made immortal
He's not on Earth.

Paul wanted to depart and be with Christ, he didn't say he wanted to die and then soul sleep for thousands of years.

The criminal on the cross next to Jesus was promised by Jesus that THAT DAY he would be WITH JESUS in Paradise. Jesus didn't soul sleep for 3 days, He went somewhere called Paradise, and the condemned man was with Him, that day. despite their bodies being buried, they were conscious somewhere else.

Your doctrine is contradicted in many places in the bible, and you're building this doctrine on 1 verse out of context.
It's time to let that doctrine go.