Trump: Ukraine “Never Should Have Started War” with Russia

[Oompa Loompa]

Trump supporters have got to learn that just because Trump says something - they don't automatically have to defend it - every time - automatically - like some kind of powerless, agency deprived automaton.

Have you ever thought about the possibility that Trump supporters defend Trump because they agree with him and not because we are "powerless, agency deprived automation?" Because your statement came across as a little insulting. Remember those NPC memes that were going around that liberals were so offended about? Yeah, your statement was right up there.

 

[Vambram]

I just don't understand why Trump and the Right are such admirers of Putin and Russia.

I don't admire the dictator Putin and I don't admire Russia.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I just don't understand why Trump and the Right are such admirers of Putin and Russia.

If you actually believe that we "admire" Putin and Russia, you are severely disconnected and mistaken.

 

[Gene2memE]

The Trump administration's abandonment of Ukraine is a ghoulish betrayal. Not just of Ukraine, but of the USA's own founding principles and of a rules based international order.

The implications of the decision are even worse that that. I encourage everyone - whether you support the decision or oppose it - to read Ben Wittes Lawfare blog about the situation.

The Situation: What America Stands for Now

Great powers keep what they can grab. And smaller powers suck it up.

www.lawfaremedia.org

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Trump administration's abandonment of Ukraine is a ghoulish betrayal. Not just of Ukraine, but of the USA's own founding principles and of a rules based international order.

The implications of the decision are even worse that that. I encourage everyone - whether you support the decision or oppose it - to read Ben Wittes Lawfare blog about the situation.

The Situation: What America Stands for Now

Great powers keep what they can grab. And smaller powers suck it up.

www.lawfaremedia.org

Our founding principles are leave us alone!

Following that... What do we have to do with Ukraine? Like, less than nothing!

If they want to fight a war it's not my problem. I'm fine helping put together a peace deal... We aren't merchants of death...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

The Trump administration's abandonment of Ukraine is a ghoulish betrayal.

What is the alternative? Another endless war where we burn billions of dollars and gain nothing in return? Trump gave Zelensky an offer, "give us half of your stuff and will will send you whatever you want." Zelensky rejected it. Now, ask yourself why the negotiations are only between Trump and Putin? Why not with Zelensky? Why not with any NATO member? The answer is simple, because Ukrain and NATO is so weak and ineffective that they only deserve to be at the kiddy table while the grown ups talk. Putin is only threatened by NATO because the United States is its dominant member...period. Putin is willing to negotiate with Trump because Putin respects and fears Trump, not because they are buddies.

 

[rambot]

I have not seen any evidence.

So alllll those threads and all those posts by all those posters, all those opportunities to just consider the evidence......

Didn t even see it hey?

 

[Goonie]

What is the alternative? Another endless war where we burn billions of dollars and gain nothing in return? Trump gave Zelensky an offer, "give us half of your stuff and will will send you whatever you want." Zelensky rejected it. Now, ask yourself why the negotiations are only between Trump and Putin? Why not with Zelensky? Why not with any NATO member? The answer is simple, because Ukrain and NATO is so weak and ineffective that they only deserve to be at the kiddy table while the grown ups talk. Putin is only threatened by NATO because the United States is its dominant member...period. Putin is willing to negotiate with Trump because Putin respects and fears Trump, not because they are buddies.

His offer was to seek higher reparations from the Ukraine, the victim of a blatantly illegal invasion, than Germany was punished post world war 2 and the Holocaust, in return for nothing.

 

[High Fidelity]

By Trump’s own logic, the US should still be owned by Britain.

Never had him down as some submissive wet flannel that would publicly state you should roll over when faced with a more powerful opponent.

 

[High Fidelity]

What is the alternative? Another endless war where we burn billions of dollars and gain nothing in return? Trump gave Zelensky an offer, "give us half of your stuff and will will send you whatever you want." Zelensky rejected it. Now, ask yourself why the negotiations are only between Trump and Putin? Why not with Zelensky? Why not with any NATO member? The answer is simple, because Ukrain and NATO is so weak and ineffective that they only deserve to be at the kiddy table while the grown ups talk. Putin is only threatened by NATO because the United States is its dominant member...period. Putin is willing to negotiate with Trump because Putin respects and fears Trump, not because they are buddies.

US has given ~$100 bn in aid. Why should they be expected to pay back $500bn in resources?

I think it’s fair for the conversation to happen to the tune of some access to resources as means of repayment for the received support, but trying railroad them by demanding 5x what you’ve given is just crazy. That’s not a friend, that’s not an ally, that’s someone taking advantage of your situation.

Should NATO countries expect the same return on their own investment after following the US into Iraq and Afghanistan? The wars that cost trillions, not billions.

 

[rebornfree]

Our founding principles are leave us alone!

Following that... What do we have to do with Ukraine? Like, less than nothing!

If they want to fight a war it's not my problem. I'm fine helping put together a peace deal... We aren't merchants of death...

Ukrainians did not want to fight; they want to live in peace but Russia invaded them. The Russians are the aggressors; the ones who want to take over a sovereign country. So those of us who have compassion and do not want to see people killed and towns destroyed come to their aid.

We're geographically nearer in the UK, so it probably seems more remote to you, just as something happening in the Americas would seem more remote to us. My parents' generation lived through being bombed in WWII and I can remember seeing the bomb sites. It's a horrible thing, but to say that those who have been invaded want war is just wrong. They want peace but the aggressor doesn't.

 

[SimplyMe]

US has given ~$100 bn in aid. Why should they be expected to pay back $500bn in resources?

I think it’s fair for the conversation to happen to the tune of some access to resources as means of repayment for the received support, but trying railroad them by demanding 5x what you’ve given is just crazy. That’s not a friend, that’s not an ally, that’s someone taking advantage of your situation.

Should NATO countries expect the same return on their own investment after following the US into Iraq and Afghanistan? The wars that cost trillions, not billions.

And to really be fair about it, much of that was older equipment that we were replacing. For example, we sent them Abrams M1A1 tanks, that have been replaced in the US military by the M1A2 tank. We sent them our ATACMS, which are being replaced by PRSM. Many of the missiles sent where the equipment is not being replaced were missiles that were near the end of their "shelf life," where the explosives were reaching a point where they are old enough they become unstable, so they were being replaced anyway.

And our best deal is the F-16s that Denmark and The Netherlands gave to Ukraine, which are being replaced by American companies building F-35s for them -- while the Ukrainian pilots are trained by American F-16 pilots (more of that aid we "sent" to Ukraine, to pay for the cost of training their pilots by the American military.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

So alllll those threads and all those posts by all those posters, all those opportunities to just consider the evidence......

Didn t even see it hey?

Nope. Shall I put on my tin foil hat before I take a look?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

By Trump’s own logic, the US should still be owned by Britain.

That is false.

US has given ~$100 bn in aid. Why should they be expected to pay back $500bn in resources?

It is called interest.

 

[High Fidelity]

That is false.

It is called interest.

So you think you should only help people when there’s financial gain for yourself?

I can’t see your faith status on mobile so I’m not sure if you’re Christian. Have you read the Bible? It has a few things to say about that.

 

[rambot]

Nope. Shall I put on my tin foil hat before I take a look?

Just another example of the divide between left and right in thr USA.

 

[rebornfree]

What is the alternative? Another endless war where we burn billions of dollars and gain nothing in return? Trump gave Zelensky an offer, "give us half of your stuff and will will send you whatever you want." Zelensky rejected it. Now, ask yourself why the negotiations are only between Trump and Putin? Why not with Zelensky? Why not with any NATO member? The answer is simple, because Ukrain and NATO is so weak and ineffective that they only deserve to be at the kiddy table while the grown ups talk. Putin is only threatened by NATO because the United States is its dominant member...period. Putin is willing to negotiate with Trump because Putin respects and fears Trump, not because they are buddies.

To be honest I see it the other way around: Trump and Putin are the kids, throwing their weight around, whilst the grown ups, including Zelensky, are trying to find a way out of the war with Ukraine retaining their territory.

US has given ~$100 bn in aid. Why should they be expected to pay back $500bn in resources?

I think it’s fair for the conversation to happen to the tune of some access to resources as means of repayment for the received support, but trying railroad them by demanding 5x what you’ve given is just crazy. That’s not a friend, that’s not an ally, that’s someone taking advantage of your situation.

Should NATO countries expect the same return on their own investment after following the US into Iraq and Afghanistan? The wars that cost trillions, not billions.

Excellent post.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Nope. Shall I put on my tin foil hat before I take a look?

No, stay loyal, comrade.

 

[SimplyMe]

That is false.

It is called interest.

So we are the mob, charging something like 400% interest on the value of what we say we gave them -- particularly since it was a "gift" with no mention of repayment at the time it was given?

 

[linux.poet]

Donald Trump believes the Banned.video Infowars conspiracy theory that Ukraine started the war with Russia? Dude needs to stop watching Alex Jones and get his head back into credible news sources.

And yes, I’m saying this because one of my friends has gotten themselves hooked on Infowars and has told me over and over that Ukraine started the war with Russia and that “Russia was just looking to defend their territory”. Which I may point out I don’t actually believe, given that Ukraine’s territory has been invaded, but at least we can source this misinformation back to the Sandy Hook deniers. Trump should actually read his Politico subscription instead of canceling it.

Many Christians believe the Kingdom Age refers to a future period when Jesus Christ will reign on Earth, bringing peace, justice, and righteousness. This vision is often associated with the Millennial Kingdom described in the Book of Revelation.

The conflict in Ukraine began in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea and supported separatist movements in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. This led to a protracted conflict between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian separatists1. The situation escalated significantly in February 2022 when Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

What does that have to do with this topic? This is the Christian forums, but we’re talking politics here friend.

We are a part of both of those organizations, are we not?

Ukraine, as far as I’m aware, isn’t a part of NATO and we are under no obligation to defend Ukraine as part of our membership in that alliance.