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Don Jr’s Greenland MAGA ‘supporters’ included unhoused people who were offered free lunch, Danish press reports

ThatRobGuy

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I guess bribing homeless people with food is about as shmarmy as cleaning up waste at the side of the road for 15 minutes.
It's all manipulation.

I know people were raising eyebrows at this one because the homeless people are understandably viewed as "more vulnerable" than the general population as a whole.

But when you boil it down, it's not exactly lightyears away from the other similar approaches that have become staples of politics... we've just been desensitized to the previous iterations of these tactics.
(Politicians adopting a fake southern "good old boy" accent and slang when they're campaigning in poorer and less-educated areas of the south, promising to increase food stamp benefits when they're campaigning in more urban areas, popping on the hardhat and Carhartt's when they go to visit a work site to imply that they understand "the blue collar struggle" despite many of the politicians not having worked a hard day in decades...if ever)
 
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rambot

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It's all manipulation.

I know people were raising eyebrows at this one because the homeless people are understandably viewed as "more vulnerable" than the general population as a whole.

But when you boil it down, it's not exactly lightyears away from the other similar approaches that have become staples of politics... we've just been desensitized to the previous iterations of these tactics.
(Politicians adopting a fake southern "good old boy" accent and slang when they're campaigning in poorer and less-educated areas of the south, promising to increase food stamp benefits when they're campaigning in more urban areas, popping on the hardhat and Carhartt's when they go to visit a work site to imply that they understand "the blue collar struggle" despite many of the politicians not having worked a hard day in decades...if ever)
Oh sure. I understand and generally I'd agree.

I DO think the Republican who used a fake family for a photo op (which SUGGESTS he has a family without explicitly saying so)....THAT seems a bit over the top weird.

But yes, you raise a reasonable point. I mean, SOME level of pandering needs to be expected and is reasonable I'd say. Their job is literally to pander during election season. I think if they portray something that is antithetical to who they are, that's problematic.

If a senator from NY fakes a southern accent going for votes, that's lame. If a South carolinian "greases" their accent a bit, that's not as bad. AT least IMHO.
 
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iluvatar5150

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That's where they miss the forest for the trees.

It's not their own "sub factions" they need to win over. (it's not as if all of the progressive democrats will vote republican if they go with a center-left democrat...or vice versa)

Elections are won and lost (in most cases) by whoever can make the best appeal to the independents (and perhaps skim some people from the other team)

They're trying to play an intramural game against each other, when what they really need to doing is prepping for that big "away game" that happens in PA, Michigan, Arizona, and Nevada every 4 years.


I understand they were under some unique time constraints this last time around, but it goes to highlight the value of primaries in certain states and why holding a proper primary is more advantageous than simply "anointing" someone to take the baton.
You're making, essentially, the same argument that the rest of them are - that you understand the independents better, that the independents are open to being swayed to the Dems, and that you know how to do it.

At this point, I don't think anybody has a really good handle on why things have been moving in the directions they have been. Dems have had many clear failures, but Republicans have also been doing things that shouldn't have worked and that maybe didn't work as well as they could have. Trump has been sort of a paradox, at various times functioning as both a rallying figure and a millstone around their necks.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You're making, essentially, the same argument that the rest of them are - that you understand the independents better, that the independents are open to being swayed to the Dems, and that you know how to do it.

At this point, I don't think anybody has a really good handle on why things have been moving in the directions they have been. Dems have had many clear failures, but Republicans have also been doing things that shouldn't have worked and that maybe didn't work as well as they could have. Trump has been sort of a paradox, at various times functioning as both a rallying figure and a millstone around their necks.
Being an independent and seeing the poll results among independents on the various issues, I don't think it's exactly rocket science to see what they were doing wrong (if they wanted to win over the majority independent voters)

Just take these two issues for instance:
1737141987985.png


1737142123643.png


On the DEI front:
Per a Rutgers Eagleton Center for Public Interest Polling survey, Most Democratic and Democratic-leaning workers – 78% – say focusing on DEI at work is a good thing. Just 30% of Republicans and 41% of Independents felt the same.

On the Gun issue:
1737142753376.png


On the censorship front:
A majority of Democrats (69%) would rather curb the spread of misinformation, even if that means at times censoring the truth. Conversely, majorities of independents (60%) and Republicans (78%) would rather allow some misinformation to spread rather than to censor truthful information and legitimate debate.

A majority of Americans (58%) say that social media sites should use the First Amendment as the standard for their content moderation decisions. Partisans disagree, with 82% of Republicans and 60% of independents supporting the use of the First Amendment and 64% of Democrats saying companies should set their own rules.



So, in my estimation (and to clarify, this isn't meant to advocate for any abortion policy that would violate forum rules, just a statement of what I think would happen)

If Democrats
-went back to their 90's abortion position of "Safe, legal, and rare"
-Abandoned their recent full-court press on DEI initiatives
-Conceded that they were wrong about immigration (rather than what they're currently doing, which is partially adopting the other team's position, and pretending that was their position all along)
-Moderated their position on guns
-Run like hell and distance themselves as much as possible from all of that censorship stuff they've dabbling in for the last 4 years

...they'd see much better results in 2028.

Because if you look at the mathematical breakdown, the reality is right now, "Independents" (as a voter bloc), despite having a mashup of views and some being more liberal than others, are currently a little closer to the GOP, as a whole, than they are to where the Democrats are currently at. (it used to be the opposite)

Many of the things I mentioned above that have become part of the DNC platform, are things that 60-65% of Independents don't like. So how did they ever think they had a snowball's chance of winning that group over?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Being an independent and seeing the poll results among independents on the various issues, I don't think it's exactly rocket science to see what they were doing wrong (if they wanted to win over the majority independent voters)

Just take these two issues for instance:
View attachment 359875

View attachment 359876

On the DEI front:
Per a Rutgers Eagleton Center for Public Interest Polling survey, Most Democratic and Democratic-leaning workers – 78% – say focusing on DEI at work is a good thing. Just 30% of Republicans and 41% of Independents felt the same.

On the Gun issue:
View attachment 359878

On the censorship front:
A majority of Democrats (69%) would rather curb the spread of misinformation, even if that means at times censoring the truth. Conversely, majorities of independents (60%) and Republicans (78%) would rather allow some misinformation to spread rather than to censor truthful information and legitimate debate.

A majority of Americans (58%) say that social media sites should use the First Amendment as the standard for their content moderation decisions. Partisans disagree, with 82% of Republicans and 60% of independents supporting the use of the First Amendment and 64% of Democrats saying companies should set their own rules.



So, in my estimation (and to clarify, this isn't meant to advocate for any abortion policy that would violate forum rules, just a statement of what I think would happen)

If Democrats
-went back to their 90's abortion position of "Safe, legal, and rare"
-Abandoned their recent full-court press on DEI initiatives
-Conceded that they were wrong about immigration (rather than what they're currently doing, which is partially adopting the other team's position, and pretending that was their position all along)
-Moderated their position on guns
-Run like hell and distance themselves as much as possible from all of that censorship stuff they've dabbling in for the last 4 years

...they'd see much better results in 2028.

Because if you look at the mathematical breakdown, the reality is right now, "Independents" (as a voter bloc), despite having a mashup of view and some being more liberal than others, are currently a little closer to the GOP, as a whole, than they are to where the Democrats are currently at.
Like I said, you have the answer, just last Matt Yglesias or Bill Maher or any number of other pundits who lay claim to the same thing.

To kind of pick apart just one of your examples - anybody running from the Dems to the Republicans because of "censorship" just hasn't been paying attention. I'm not saying the Dems are innocent - they're not - but Republicans have been playing that game, too, and for far longer. The difference isn't that one side engages in censorship (or cancel culture or whatever) and the other side doesn't. The difference is merely that the different sides go after different things and different groups. So the real issue there isn't "censorship" per se; it's messaging or propaganda or voter awareness or some combination thereof, which is a fundamentally different problem to solve.
 
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RileyG

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Probably they told the homeless that they can't eat unless they wear the hat, and smile for the camera. Those who refused were escorted off the property.
I doubt that.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Probably they told the homeless that they can't eat unless they wear the hat, and smile for the camera. Those who refused were escorted off the property.
That is what the Danish press reported.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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To kind of pick apart just one of your examples - anybody running from the Dems to the Republicans because of "censorship" just hasn't been paying attention. I'm not saying the Dems are innocent - they're not - but Republicans have been playing that game, too, and for far longer. The difference isn't that one side engages in censorship (or cancel culture or whatever) and the other side doesn't. The difference is merely that the different sides go after different things and different groups. So the real issue there isn't "censorship" per se; it's messaging or propaganda or voter awareness or some combination thereof, which is a fundamentally different problem to solve.
I would say there's a couple of distinctions though...

Not all censorship is created equal.

First, while it's true that (as you alluded to) republicans have been playing the censorship for a while longer (in general), the targets of republican censorship have fallen into one of two buckets:

A) Censorship targeted at things that members of the Democratic party were also trying to censor at the time (Examples: the Senate hearings pertaining to lyrics and rap music back in the 80's/90's, censoring violent video games, etc...) -- thereby not sticking out like a sore thumb.

B) Censorship targeted at things that the other side would be afraid to publicly counter and defend (Example: pornography, despite the fact that I'm sure many or most democrats are against censorship of porn, no politician who wants to keep his job wants to publicly stand up and proclaim that they're the "pro-porn candidate")


Secondly, the republican calls for censorship have been a little more abstracted (we don't like thing XYZ, so we don't want people to see it), the modern Democratic calls for censorship seem to be more targeted at the individual, attempting to tell them what they can't say.

Thirdly, the aspects of attempting to leverage private sector proxies to censor for them -- compelling tech companies to do their bidding, instead of doing through the proper legislative process.

Lastly, the retroactive component. (Ex: You told this offensive joke 6 years ago, so we're going to kick up a poop-storm and try to get you fired for it now)



I went back and bolded that third one, because that's the one I think probably puts the most people off.

People can agree or disagree about the level of censorship that should be allowed/tolerated, and to which content they pertain.

But something about the government using backdoor approaches rather than, at the very least, going through the proper channels just "hits different" for some reason. I think largely because when it's done that way, there's no person or court one can appeal to.


Just as an example: Fair to assume you probably weren't a huge fan of DeSantis's "parental rights in education bill", correct?

Now, instead of FL state republicans voting on a bill, sending it up to Ron's desk, and signing it. It instead was handled via the FL state legislature by calling book publishers for legislative panel hearings, strongarming them into not publishing the books by making thinly veiled implications that the publishers stand to lose some tax breaks or abatements if they don't "bend a knee"

That would seem worse, right? There's no appeal process for that, whereas at least when it's done through a typical legislative process, there is at least a measure of recourse, for instance, a group of local school boards and parents filed suit in a district court, and when that got dismissed, they escalated it up to a federal court (which I believe is still ongoing)

The only recourse for the latter is to vote out the people who are doing the strongarming against the companies, in hopes that it alleviates the fears they have about getting railroaded and losing certain protections, and hoping they reverse course. Which could explain why some voted the way they did, and why Muck Zuckerberg did reverse course once the dust settled, and the Democrats aren't holding a majority anymore.
 
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iluvatar5150

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ThatRobGuy

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Except Trump did exactly that:

or rather, he tried to censor the private sector companies themselves when they engaged in speech he didn't like.
Unless there's a part of the NPR article I'm overlooking, his was an effort to basically do the opposite, punish them if they did engage in biased censorship.

Per the article:
Trump's order seeks to chip away at the vast legal protection Silicon Valley has long fought to preserve by offering a new interpretation of the law. The order argues, in essence, that if the social media companies restrict certain voices on their platforms, the companies should be stripped of their legal immunity


In other words, there's a big difference between saying "you'll be stripped of your platform protections if you censor conservatives" (which is what Trump's order was aimed at) vs. "you'll be stripped of said protections if you DON'T censor these conservative voices we don't like" (which is what the senate was doing when they hauled all the Tech Giant CEOs up to a hearing.

But the key difference I made reference to earlier still applies here even if it was a much closer comparison.

An executive order (which Presidents are afforded the privilege of doing) is still part of our normal government processes, and therefore, still have recourse in the form of people being able to challenge it courts.

Senators doing a "we'd prefer it if you adopt these concepts into your platform and ToS, otherwise we may have to revisit those Section 230 protections, you catch our drift?" is outside of the legal processes, and offers no recourse, as it's basically the government mandating something, but trying to do it in such a way that it seems like it was the Tech companies' own decision, thereby, removing the normal judicial recourse a person may have in fighting it.

In the former, a person can take it to court and claim it's unconstitutional.

In the latter, a person wouldn't have any legal standing because the response would be "they're a private company and not beholden to the 1st amendment, they can censor what they want" (even though that censorship was done at the indirect request of government officials)
 
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Pommer

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Unless there's a part of the NPR article I'm overlooking, his was an effort to basically do the opposite, punish them if they did engage in biased censorship.

Per the article:
Trump's order seeks to chip away at the vast legal protection Silicon Valley has long fought to preserve by offering a new interpretation of the law. The order argues, in essence, that if the social media companies restrict certain voices on their platforms, the companies should be stripped of their legal immunity


In other words, there's a big difference between saying "you'll be stripped of your platform protections if you censor conservatives" (which is what Trump's order was aimed at) vs. "you'll be stripped of said protections if you DON'T censor these conservative voices we don't like" (which is what the senate was doing when they hauled all the Tech Giant CEOs up to a hearing.

But the key difference I made reference to earlier still applies here even if it was a much closer comparison.

An executive order (which Presidents are afforded the privilege of doing) is still part of our normal government processes, and therefore, still have recourse in the form of people being able to challenge it courts.

Senators doing a "we'd prefer it if you adopt these concepts into your platform and ToS, otherwise we may have to revisit those Section 230 protections, you catch our drift?" is outside of the legal processes, and offers no recourse, as it's basically the government mandating something, but trying to do it in such a way that it seems like it was the Tech companies' own decision, thereby, removing the normal judicial recourse a person may have in fighting it.

In the former, a person can take it to court and claim it's unconstitutional.

In the latter, a person wouldn't have any legal standing because the response would be "they're a private company and not beholden to the 1st amendment, they can censor what they want" (even though that censorship was done at the indirect request of government officials)
“Politicize your business or we won’t let you have your business the way that you’d like it, if at all.”

What’s not to love?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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“Politicize your business or we won’t let you have your business the way that you’d like it, if at all.”

What’s not to love?
But preventing censorship isn't politicizing.

Picking a favorite and pulling levers to make sure that side wins in the town square would be politicizing.

That's where the "platform vs. publisher" debate comes into play.

Right now, the phone companies have a platform protection. For instance, if Joe Smith calls in a bomb threat using his Verizon phone, Verizon isn't liable for that (they may get subpoenaed to provide records, but ultimately Joe Smith will pay the legal price for that).

However, if Verizon started intentionally dropping the calls of ideological opponents or deprioritizing their cellular and internet traffic so that all their calls are choppy, and the internet barely works, people would see that as a problem.


Not sure who remembers this, but that's why there was such fierce debate over Net Neutrality (that's going back a few years now).

Basically, ISPs were in the hot seat, because many of them (who also happened to be the same company that provided cable TV service) saw streaming services as a threat to their business, and began trying to throttle their competition.

People were understandably concerned about that.

Now, imagine how much messier that would've been if it wasn't the ISPs themselves wanting to make that decision, but a handful of senators (who happened to own stake in some cable TV providers) were making vaguely implied threats about removing their tax breaks if they didn't start throttling Hulu and Netflix, basically strongarming them into doing that.

That would be even more egregious.


That's why platforms need to remain platforms. Short of illegalities, platforms should have to refrain from editorializing and promoting one viewpoint over another if they want to continue getting platform benefits. The moment they start making choices about which opinions people see and which ones people don't, they're no longer a platform. They're a publisher/editor.


Jack Dorsey was basically doing the exact same kind of thing that got people angry at the ISPs when they were doing it. Which is "we're a platform so we get these special protections", but then trying to pick winners and losers, the only difference is the ISPs were doing it in the marketplace of home entertainment, Twitter was trying to do it in the marketplace of ideas.
 
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