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The Church started in the wilderness

DamianWarS

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Let's go all the way into the future in Ezekiel 44: 5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. 6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, 7 in that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves. The Levites 9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
You left the text uncommented. Please don't leave things to the reader's interpretation (aka my interpretation) as we all approach these things from different perspectives. It is much better to add your thoughts at the end over merely bolding verses so we all know clearly what point you're making.

For example, it appears to me that you are saying that not getting circumcised in the flesh is sinful and you've quoted this Ezekiel text to show your proof. Since your thoughts are uncommented I now have to ask you point blank do you think not getting circumcised in the flesh (for male counterparts) is sinful and goes against God's law as not observing the Sabbath is sinful and goes against God's law as it applies to Christian living? (If you can't agree with that statement please make any necessary changes for clarity's sake)
 
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Bro.T

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You left the text uncommented. Please don't leave things to the reader's interpretation (aka my interpretation) as we all approach these things from different perspectives. It is much better to add your thoughts at the end over merely bolding verses so we all know clearly what point you're making.

For example, it appears to me that you are saying that not getting circumcised in the flesh is sinful and you've quoted this Ezekiel text to show your proof. Since your thoughts are uncommented I now have to ask you point blank do you think not getting circumcised in the flesh (for male counterparts) is sinful and goes against God's law as not observing the Sabbath is sinful and goes against God's law as it applies to Christian living? (If you can't agree with that statement please make any necessary changes for clarity's sake)
Let's also understand that the lord have not changed his ways. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6) or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. In the scriptures it's written in Genesis 17: 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Let's get another example about the passover in Exodus 12: 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: there shall no stranger eat thereof: 44but every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. 50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

So if a male is not circumcise he cannot take of the Passover according to the word of God. This why Peter says in 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 
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Bro.T

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So in your prior post, you made the claim that:

"In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day."

You have made this claim repeatedly. Last time I asked for evidence that the Roman Catholic Church "officially" did any such thing in 336, and I also noted that Sunday observance predated this by centuries. You didn't offer any evidence or offer any explanation for the issues I pointed out. Since you didn't offer anything, I felt there was no purpose in continuing that... but then you made the claim again as if I hadn't pointed out anything. So again I made the same points, as well as pointing out other errors you made in the post. Here you reply again and... don't actually address much of anything in my post. Instead you throw out a post that rambles on about various things but does not actually address my points. Nor do you make any acknowledgement or response to the errors I pointed out--for example, you incorrectly claiming Constantine made Christianity the state religion (he didn't) or your apparent claim that the 4th century Pope Sylvester was the first to use the phrase "Lord's Day" (it actually predates him by centuries).

But, I'm starting to realize the reason behind your odd posting style. When making posts--even when replying--you mostly just copy/paste things over and over from prior posts. Aside from a little you added at the start and the end to perhaps try to make it relevant to my post, you have made this exact post multiple times in the past in other topics. So no wonder you don't actually address anything! You're just copy/pasting things over and over with little regard to what you're actually responding to! You have done this not only to me, but also to others.

Since your post so completely bypasses the things I was saying, there isn't too much for me to say to it. But I do notice something interesting. You throw out a copy/pasted quote (meaning you are ironically copy/pasting your own copy/pastes) of someone claiming that "the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Why we should accept this source (which appears to come from a work from a century ago) is unexplained by you. But if we suppose this is accurate, this ironically only proves your claim wrong. This is 364, not 336, and more importantly the Council of Laodicea had nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church, given it was... well, in Laodicea. It was a local council, and the Roman Church had nothing to do with it.

So again you make claims without backing them up, and then when pressed on them, just evade the point. Though at least the prior times you did it, you didn't (in your copy/pasting) try to back up your claim with something that contradicts it!
Paul says in Colossians 2: 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paganism has nothing to do with Jesus, that's serving another God. That's tradition of men. Do what's written in the Bible only.
 
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Bro.T

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This whole post of yours looks to be just copied from someone else's writing. But let's go through it anyway.

In regards to this first point, upon looking at what seems to be your source, its assertion is that the crucifixion was Wednesday and the Resurrection occurred Saturday night. Even if true, this poses no problem for the statement of a Sunday resurrection; if we take the Jewish reckoning, then Sunday started on sundown on Saturday (what we nowadays normally call "Saturday night"), thereby putting it on Sunday in the Jewish reckoning. Or, if we want to consider it Sunday in the modern sense of it being past midnight... such would still be during the night. Thus we still can call it a Sunday resurrection, even should this claim of your source be accurate.



And other, more accurate, encyclopedias correctly state that these supposed "pagan in origin" things actually don't come from paganism at all.

But let's take a look at your evidences of paganism.



The actual situation is far more complex than this. One writer, Bede, when talking about the origin of the names of the English months (we no longer use those months), asserts that Eosturmonab was named after a goddess named Eostre for which there were feasts in that month. As noted here, this is the entirety of what Bede says about Eostre:

In olden time the English people -- for it did not seem fitting to me that I should speak of other people's observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's -- calculated their months according to the course of the moon. Hence, after the manner of the Greeks and the Romans (the months) take their name from the Moon, for the Moon is called mona and the month monath.

The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; February is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath; May, Thrimilchi; June, Litha; July, also Litha; August, Weodmonath; September, Halegmonath; October, Winterfilleth; November, Blodmonath; December, Giuli, the same name by which January is called. ...

Nor is it irrelevant if we take the time to translate the names of the other months. ... Hrethmonath is named for their goddess Hretha, to whom they sacrificed at this time. Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance. Thrimilchi was so called because in that month the cattle were milked three times a day...

The problem is that aside from this brief reference, we have no references to Eostre and have found no relics dedicated to her. Bede may have had access to things we do not... but he also could have just been relying on incorrect information. Remember, he attributes the name of the prior month to a goddess we also have no clear evidence of outside of his remark!

Even if we were to suppose Bede's information on the source of this month's name was right, Easter appears to have taken its name from the month. The translation above says "they designated that Paschal season by her name", but the Latin is unclear as to whether he is saying "her name" (Eostre) or "its name" (the month), as well explained here. For the reasons the link gives, it seems more plausible to me that Bede is saying it comes from the month.

But let us suppose that Bede's information on Eostre was completely correct and that it came from the goddess rather than the month. That would, at most, be an argument that in English we should use a different name. For you see, in most of the world, the word "Easter" is not used at all. In Spanish--which more people speak natively than English!--the word is pascua. Clearly this has nothing to do with any Eostre. At most, the English name is taken from this goddess--and again, even that is very far from certain.



But here we turn from a somewhat plausible claim to nonsense. As noted, the above quotes from Bede are we have on this alleged goddess. Do you see him say she was the goddess of spring, fertility, and new life? No. So this is total speculation. It also says she was "the great Anglo-Saxon goddess" even though apparently she wasn't "great" enough to leave a mark larger than an offhand reference!



More made-up claims; there is not any real evidence of any of these, outside of the ones that can just be considered alternate spellings of Eostre. Indeed, Ostara was a conjecture. In the 19th century Jacob Grimm was aware that there was no evidence of Eostre outside of Bede's brief remark and that for this reason there was considerable skepticism that there ever was any Eostre who was believed in. But he respected Bede and wanted to assert that Bede was right. As part of his argument on why Bede was right, he conjectured the possibility of a corresponding German goddess named Ostara. That is where Ostara came from: A 19th century conjecture.

It is not clear where the claim that "eastre" was the ancient word for spring comes from. When I look up eastre in an Old English Dictionary, it simply tells me it's an alternate spelling for Easter.



And... so? If this is supposed to be some kind of argument against Easter, note this applies to Passover also.



Well then, if it can be traced back to these ancient pagan customs, how about you offer evidence?

But of course, you don't, for either this or the successive claims. This is the problem with these "Easter is pagan" claims. People make stuff up. They just say something and act as if that's the case without offering evidence.



Given how I've personally really never seen lilies used as symbols of Easter, the importance of this seems low. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it.

But even so, I can't help but notice you yet again claim this without evidence. So please provide proof. Also provide proof that:
1) These pagans were doing this before it was used in Easter celebrations
2) These Easter celebrations utilizing it occurred early enough that it could have been taken from paganism
3) The pagan celebrations could have plausibly influenced Easter (i.e. it wasn't just something off in Japan or whatever)



Same points as the above. You're making this without evidence. Give the evidence I requested.

Indeed, why should one take the above claims seriously when you follow it up with the following whopper:



Once again: The only information we have about Eostre is from Bede's brief reference. Anything anyone says about Eostre outside of that is speculation. Or in this case, completely made up. All this stuff about how an "ox was sacrificed" for Eostre, and that they were carved into the bread? Totally made up! Just like, most likely, the things you previously said!

Just to further show off the errors, you claim that "buns" is derived from a word for "sacred ox." Funny--every etymological dictionary I consult says nothing of this. This is another made-up claim.

Oh, and hot cross buns are first attested to in the 18th century, or at least I've been unable to find anything beyond that. Care you explain how a tradition that started in the 18th century traces back to a (supposed) feast that no one had been celebrating for about one thousand years?

So all you've offered in your post is a bunch of claims made without any evidence, and much of them can be easily shown to be nonsense.
Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1: 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This is what you suppose to do, turn away from paganism and serve the true living God only. Keep his Commandments, Statues and Judgements. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
 
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JSRG

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Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1: 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This is what you suppose to do, turn away from paganism and serve the true living God only. Keep his Commandments, Statues and Judgements. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
Well, it's become obvious you are unable or unwilling to address any of the points I made. You made claims without evidence, and I pointed out the lack of evidence for them. Then you just copy and pasted something someone else wrote, without giving any attribution to them either (is that plagiarism?). When I pointed out how the stuff you were copying was wrong and offered no evidence itself, you post... this. You don't offer evidence for the claims you copied. You don't respond to a single thing I said. In fact, it's hard to even see how this post is in any way a response to mine.

As I noted previously, this seems typical for you. You just make claims, and when people point out they're wrong, instead of responding to them, you just go off on unrelated tangents like this, which are often but not always just things you copy/pasted either from your prior posts or from someone else (again, without acknowledging you're just copying what someone else wrote). Heck, you did the exact same thing in the post immediately prior to this one, where you replied to another post of mine, again without addressing a single thing in it and instead just going off on unrelated tangents that have nothing to do with it.
 
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DamianWarS

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Let's also understand that the lord have not changed his ways. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6) or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. In the scriptures it's written in Genesis 17: 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Let's get another example about the passover in Exodus 12: 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: there shall no stranger eat thereof: 44but every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. 50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

So if a male is not circumcise he cannot take of the Passover according to the word of God. This why Peter says in 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
How do you reconcile NT teaching that would otherwise counter this (end of 1 Cor 7 comes to mind). Not everyone is interested in partaking of the physical Passover event, but are interested in its spiritual benefits. To partake of the spiritual is it your position that we also need to keep the physical requirements of the law, including circumcision?

Your being cryptic by just posting scripture without commenting even if that's not your intent, you may find this a superior response but it leaves your position unclear. No one is claiming private interpretations yet we can come to different conclusions so it is better to unpack the meaning you are trying to express so we are not guessing what you mean. Based on the history in this thread others have commented on you being difficult, let's promote clarity over confusion as other people are reading these threads too who may find these scriptures hard to understand.
 
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Doug Brents

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The keeping of Sunday as the Christian Sabbath is not of God but of Man. If you are a true Christian, which means a follower of Christ or to be Christ like; then why are you following a day set up by man? We have proved that Paul kept the Lord’s Sabbath well after the death and resurrection of Christ. So why are you going to church on the first day of the week? Well if you don’t know history will tell you why.
Can you not read? Did I ever say that Sunday is the new sabbath? NO!!!

Sunday is NOT the sabbath. Sunday (the first day) is NOT the prescribed day of worship in the New Covenant. But then, neither is Saturday (the seventh day). There is NO PRESCRIBED DAY OF WORSHIP IN THE New Covenant!!!

The Old Covenant has been removed, and is no longer binding on the NT Christ follower! So the keeping of the sabbath is not binding on the NT Christ follower. Your continual misrepresentation of the truth keeps you bound in false teaching.
 
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Bro.T

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Can you not read? Did I ever say that Sunday is the new sabbath? NO!!!
Watch your tone bro!! You can always choose to stop responding, you understand!

Sunday is NOT the sabbath. Sunday (the first day) is NOT the prescribed day of worship in the New Covenant. But then, neither is Saturday (the seventh day). There is NO PRESCRIBED DAY OF WORSHIP IN THE New Covenant!!!

The Old Covenant has been removed, and is no longer binding on the NT Christ follower! So the keeping of the sabbath is not binding on the NT Christ follower. Your continual misrepresentation of the truth keeps you bound in false teaching.
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because, that in it, He had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen 2:1-3).

The bible reveals that God blessed and set apart (sanctified) the seventh day. This day is holy unto God, and it is the only day of the week that we are commanded to honor. "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation: ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings."

(Lev 23:3). A holy convocation is an assembly of the people of God, who come together to worship him.
In (Ex.31:16-17). If you're a stranger (Non-Israelite), you must also keep the Lord's Sabbath day. "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love him, to be his servants, every one of them that keepth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my Holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." (Isaiah 56:6-7).

Even in this day, any Christian not honoring the customs of the Lord is to be cut off from among "The Church" (Israel). "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." (2 Thes 3:6). People, keeping the Sabbath day is apart of that tradition.
Prophecy declared that we would forget to keep the Sabbath holy.

"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy", is what the Lord commands us in the "Ten Commandments", see Ex.20:8-11.Yes, the world has forgotten to sanctify the Sabbath and that is the reason why we (the world) are in such a terrible state today.

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the cursed devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." (Isaiah 24:5-6).

Let this scripture encourage us not to be "Covenant breakers" and learn how we are to honor the Sabbath by keeping it holy and a sacred day.
 
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Bro.T

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How do you reconcile NT teaching that would otherwise counter this (end of 1 Cor 7 comes to mind). Not everyone is interested in partaking of the physical Passover event, but are interested in its spiritual benefits. To partake of the spiritual is it your position that we also need to keep the physical requirements of the law, including circumcision?
Yes, according to the word of God.
Your being cryptic by just posting scripture without commenting even if that's not your intent, you may find this a superior response but it leaves your position unclear. No one is claiming private interpretations yet we can come to different conclusions so it is better to unpack the meaning you are trying to express so we are not guessing what you mean. Based on the history in this thread others have commented on you being difficult, let's promote clarity over confusion as other people are reading these threads too who may find these scriptures hard to understand.
WHAT THE PASSOVER REPRESENTS The Passover commemorates the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt by the hand of the Lord. Israel had been in captivity in Egypt for over 400 years. Because of Pharaoh's refusal to release the children of Israel from bondage, God afflicted Egypt with plagues. The last plague issued was the killing of all the Egyptians first born. A death angel was to pass through the land, and to ensure that their first born would be spared, the Israelites were instructed by God, to mark their door posts with the blood of a lamb. The death angel would see the marking and thus pass over the house that had blood.

CHANGE IN THE PASSOVER While Jesus and His disciples were commemorating the Passover, Jesus gives His disciples a set of instructions. (Matthew 26:26) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. (27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; (28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Jesus told His disciples to eat of the bread, for that represented His body, and He told them to drink of the cup, for that represented His blood. Jesus tells them, His blood is of the new testament, and it is shed for the remission of sins. Jesus is speaking of the fact, that He will be crucified for the sins of man and we know that, it is only through the shedding of Jesus’s blood, that men can receive forgiveness for their sins. Hence Jesus became our sacrificial lamb. You will find in the Gospel of Luke where Jesus told them to partake in this meal in remembrance of Him.

(Luke 22:19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Now Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him, the above shows that He is speaking in reference to observing the Passover. Again the Passover has a set time when it is to be observed , the 14th day of the month of Abib. This is the time that God appointed, for its observance. It should not be celebrated at the discretion of man.
 
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DamianWarS

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Yes, according to the word of God.

WHAT THE PASSOVER REPRESENTS The Passover commemorates the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt by the hand of the Lord. Israel had been in captivity in Egypt for over 400 years. Because of Pharaoh's refusal to release the children of Israel from bondage, God afflicted Egypt with plagues. The last plague issued was the killing of all the Egyptians first born. A death angel was to pass through the land, and to ensure that their first born would be spared, the Israelites were instructed by God, to mark their door posts with the blood of a lamb. The death angel would see the marking and thus pass over the house that had blood.

CHANGE IN THE PASSOVER While Jesus and His disciples were commemorating the Passover, Jesus gives His disciples a set of instructions. (Matthew 26:26) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. (27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; (28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Jesus told His disciples to eat of the bread, for that represented His body, and He told them to drink of the cup, for that represented His blood. Jesus tells them, His blood is of the new testament, and it is shed for the remission of sins. Jesus is speaking of the fact, that He will be crucified for the sins of man and we know that, it is only through the shedding of Jesus’s blood, that men can receive forgiveness for their sins. Hence Jesus became our sacrificial lamb. You will find in the Gospel of Luke where Jesus told them to partake in this meal in remembrance of Him.

(Luke 22:19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Now Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him, the above shows that He is speaking in reference to observing the Passover. Again the Passover has a set time when it is to be observed , the 14th day of the month of Abib. This is the time that God appointed, for its observance. It should not be celebrated at the discretion of man.
How then do you reconcile NT teaching?
For example in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul call's circumsion nothing, an earlier sentiment repeated from Gal 5:6. in the greater context of 1 Cor 7 he discourages circumscion. Is Paul encouraging others to violate God's law? Since in v19 he contrasts circumsion with God's commandments or nothing with what matters we can infer Paul does not count circumsion with God's commandments.
 
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Doug Brents

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"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because, that in it, He had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen 2:1-3).

The bible reveals that God blessed and set apart (sanctified) the seventh day. This day is holy unto God, and it is the only day of the week that we are commanded to honor. "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation: ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings."
Yes, under the Old Covenant that was true, but we are not under the Old Covenant anymore!
(Lev 23:3). A holy convocation is an assembly of the people of God, who come together to worship him.
In (Ex.31:16-17). If you're a stranger (Non-Israelite), you must also keep the Lord's Sabbath day. "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love him, to be his servants, every one of them that keepth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my Holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar: for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." (Isaiah 56:6-7).
Again, this is an Old Covenant commandment. It is NOT relevant to the NT Christ follower!
Even in this day, any Christian not honoring the customs of the Lord is to be cut off from among "The Church" (Israel). "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." (2 Thes 3:6). People, keeping the Sabbath day is apart of that tradition.
Prophecy declared that we would forget to keep the Sabbath holy.
No, the keeping of the sabbath is NOT part of the "tradition" that was received from Paul. Look down at verse 11, "For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies." This is what he is talking about.
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy", is what the Lord commands us in the "Ten Commandments", see Ex.20:8-11.Yes, the world has forgotten to sanctify the Sabbath and that is the reason why we (the world) are in such a terrible state today.
No, my poor deluded friend, the keeping (or not keeping) of the sabbath is not the reason for the terrible state of affairs today. Sin is. And the fact that we do not keep the sabbath today is not sin; that was an OT commandment, but we are under the NT today.
"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the cursed devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." (Isaiah 24:5-6).

Let this scripture encourage us not to be "Covenant breakers" and learn how we are to honor the Sabbath by keeping it holy and a sacred day.
The sabbath is not a "sacred day". It was under the OT, but we have been over this already. The Old Covenant has COMPLETELY been removed, and is no longer relevant (It was never relevant to the NT Christ follower). Jesus removed the OT completely when He completed/fulfilled it perfectly, which is what He said He came to do.
 
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Aaron112

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This has seemed to become a catch-all phrase, that is false, but rarely for good true purpose in Christ Jesus, or any purpose, it seems, other than to continue in one or another form of deception from a deceived source(s).
Yes, under the Old Covenant that was true, but we are not under the Old Covenant anymore!
 
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Aaron112

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or any purpose, it seems, other than to continue in one or another form of deception from a deceived source(s).
Previous quote was after just reading one sentence.
Sadly, Grievously, every quote after that turns out to verify it distinctly accurately. Each one below.
Again, this is an Old Covenant commandment. It is NOT relevant to the NT Christ follower!

No, my poor deluded friend, the keeping (or not keeping) of the sabbath is not the reason for the terrible state of affairs today. Sin is. And the fact that we do not keep the sabbath today is not sin; that was an OT commandment, but we are under the NT today.

The sabbath is not a "sacred day". It was under the OT, but we have been over this already. The Old Covenant has COMPLETELY been removed, and is no longer relevant (It was never relevant to the NT Christ follower). Jesus removed the OT completely when He completed/fulfilled it perfectly, which is what He said He came to do.
 
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Doug Brents

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This has seemed to become a catch-all phrase, that is false, but rarely for good true purpose in Christ Jesus, or any purpose, it seems, other than to continue in one or another form of deception from a deceived source(s).
Previous quote was after just reading one sentence.
Sadly, Grievously, every quote after that turns out to verify it distinctly accurately. Each one below.
No, this is not just a "catch-all phrase" to excuse some deception.

The New Testament Scripture says that we are not under the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant anymore (Gal 3:23-25, 4:21-5:7, Heb 8:13, Gal 3:13).

The keeping of the sabbath was an Old Covenant commandment (having been instituted at Mt. Sinai), and as such was removed with the removal of the Old Covenant, along with the dietary restrictions, the priesthood laws, the sacrificial laws, etc. The only parts the Old Covenant that are still relevant today are the parts of it that were expressly included in the New Covenant by Jesus and His Apostles (in their writings (the Bible)). Circumcision is not mandatory today (but it was under the OT). Eating pork is not forbidden today (but it was under the OT). Levites were the only ones who could be priests under the OT, but all who are in Christ (even Gentiles) are priests today (with Jesus (from the tribe of Judah) as our High Priest).
 
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Bro.T

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Yes, under the Old Covenant that was true, but we are not under the Old Covenant anymore!

Again, this is an Old Covenant commandment. It is NOT relevant to the NT Christ follower!

No, the keeping of the sabbath is NOT part of the "tradition" that was received from Paul. Look down at verse 11, "For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies." This is what he is talking about.

No, my poor deluded friend, the keeping (or not keeping) of the sabbath is not the reason for the terrible state of affairs today. Sin is. And the fact that we do not keep the sabbath today is not sin; that was an OT commandment, but we are under the NT today.

The sabbath is not a "sacred day". It was under the OT, but we have been over this already. The Old Covenant has COMPLETELY been removed, and is no longer relevant (It was never relevant to the NT Christ follower). Jesus removed the OT completely when He completed/fulfilled it perfectly, which is what He said He came to do.
Can't show me one verse or Scripture with your belief, but I can't show plenty. The Sabbath day have never been remove, never!! Now when they had passed through Am-phip’-o-lis and Ap-ol-lo’-ni-a, they came to Thes-sa-lo-ni’-ca, where was a synagogue of the Jews: (v.2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures," Now Paul evidently was around Thes-sa-lo-ni'-ca for a few weeks and as his manner was he went into the synagogue three sabbath days. Do you understand what the word manner means? Its definition is; a characteristic or customary mode of acting: custom: fashion. It was the law. (Acts 17:1-2) (v.2)

Paul went into the synagogue every sabbath, not every Sunday people, this is the apostle Paul, and it said that Paul reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

I wonder why Paul didn't enlighten them with some 1 Corinthians, or maybe hit them with some Galatians, or endow them with a little 2 Thessalonians, because these books were not around when Paul was preaching the gospel. He reasoned with them out of the scriptures, which are from Genesis to Malachi.

Again in (Acts 18:1, 4) (v.1) After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; (v.4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Why is Paul continuing to go into the church on the sabbath? Because that’s when everybody that dealt with the God of this bible held their holy convocations, every sabbath (Saturday). That’s why you had the Jews (Israelites) and the Greeks (strangers) in the church on the sabbath day. Paul without any doubt whatsoever kept the seventh day sabbath which is Saturday.

Let’s take a look and see what Jesus did when he came in the flesh, And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:14-16)

I as a bible student have examined the bible testimonies on the first day of the week, there are eight to be exact, and without exception they are silent as to any of the disciples observing Sunday as a holy day.

How is it possible that these accounts, written over 40 years after the crucifixion, have neglected to mention Sunday sacredness? There is no biblical support for the changing of God’s holy sabbath from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday).
 
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Bro.T

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How then do you reconcile NT teaching?
For example in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul call's circumsion nothing, an earlier sentiment repeated from Gal 5:6. in the greater context of 1 Cor 7 he discourages circumscion. Is Paul encouraging others to violate God's law? Since in v19 he contrasts circumsion with God's commandments or nothing with what matters we can infer Paul does not count circumsion with God's commandments.
When you see these verses and it may look confusing, remember Abraham, when he did everything God told him to do. Now this was years before God told Abraham to circumcise his household and himself. Let's go take a look in Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Everything God commands us to do is good and for a reason. Some Israelites and Paul has allow strangers into the household of God without being circumcise in the flesh and that's why I read you the law and we went in the future in Ezekiel 44Ch to see what the Lord have to say about it.

In 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Now Ezekiel 44th Chapter is the future, beyond us....6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, 7 in that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

I understand what Paul says, but Peter says we have a more sure word of prophecy, and we read what the Lord says about the stranger being circumcise in Ezekiel. Over all you have to pray and examine the word of God for yourself. I brought up Abraham because it wouldn't matter to him, he'll just deal with it quickly. Peter even says go back in the Old Testament where there a more sure word.
 
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DamianWarS

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When you see these verses and it may look confusing, remember Abraham, when he did everything God told him to do. Now this was years before God told Abraham to circumcise his household and himself. Let's go take a look in Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Everything God commands us to do is good and for a reason. Some Israelites and Paul has allow strangers into the household of God without being circumcise in the flesh and that's why I read you the law and we went in the future in Ezekiel 44Ch to see what the Lord have to say about it.

In 2 Peter 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Now Ezekiel 44th Chapter is the future, beyond us....6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, 7 in that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

I understand what Paul says, but Peter says we have a more sure word of prophecy, and we read what the Lord says about the stranger being circumcise in Ezekiel. Over all you have to pray and examine the word of God for yourself. I brought up Abraham because it wouldn't matter to him, he'll just deal with it quickly. Peter even says go back in the Old Testament where there a more sure word.
It doesn't seem like you're interested in confronting the issue. Paul is quite clear on the topic of circumcision, there is no confusing it with a private interpretation and he repeats himself quite a lot. He is also quite clear on where his message comes from, just read the opening of Galatians if you doubt his message. It feels like you are defaulting to "I dunno" so ignore it and digress to how Abraham did it. My motivation needs to be missional, it's not merely about how it affects me but how it affects those around me, specifically how can I show others Christ through these values. Cutting off your foreskin or you are cut off from God is a counter-gospel message, where I can champion it as an abstract like Col 2 it is difficult to do the same when emphasizing the flesh.

Sin itself is called "in the flesh" which is part of the meaning of circumcision but this characteristic itself is an abstract and although it can embody the concrete or even physical "flesh" it doesn't have to, and those things don't define it. As Jesus makes clear, such as in Mat 5, sin starts in the heart. Murdering someone or committing adultery certainly has flesh involved but the sin itself comes from the heart, the fleshly part is more the object of the sin than it is the sin itself.

NT teaching shows "what goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.” Paul continues this applied to circumcision saying circumcision is nothing. He also hits the same marks when he calls idols nothing or that food and drink have no intrinsic spiritual power. He is not looking at the world as clean/unclean and then being informed on where he can go or not go, but instead sees the world as God's and all that is in it thus is holy, it's defilement comes from our sinful motivation so this is where we should be addressing, not the physical things, but the heart.
Note in 1 Cor 7:10 Paul after saying circumcision is nothing he says what matters is keeping God's commandments. well what are God's commandments if not circumcision? We know the answer to this because Paul is quoting himself in Galation 5:6 saying the same thing, then again in Gal 6:15 but he unpacks "God's Commandments" in respect to loving each other addressing Christ's law, or the law of love. This is also unpacked in Gal right in the middle of the context Gal 5:14 "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" We know that Paul means by God's commandments because he spells it out for us in Galations from it's mirror verses. Galatians was the first letter he wrote and every other letter tends to pull or expand off of it, we can get foundational thinking from Paul when we read Galatians. And Paul is explicit, his words in this letter are not of "private interpretation" they are "received by revelation from Jesus Christ." (Gal 1:12) So why this allergy of not address these topics he very clearly brings up and repeats throughout his other letters?
 
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Doug Brents

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Can't show me one verse or Scripture with your belief, but I can't show plenty.
Yes, I can and I have. But as you say, you can't.
Gal 3:22-24, 4:21-5:7, Heb 8:13, 2 Cor 3:12-18, Col 2:14-16, Rom 10:4, 1 Cor 9:20
The Sabbath day have never been remove, never!! Now when they had passed through Am-phip’-o-lis and Ap-ol-lo’-ni-a, they came to Thes-sa-lo-ni’-ca, where was a synagogue of the Jews: (v.2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures," Now Paul evidently was around Thes-sa-lo-ni'-ca for a few weeks and as his manner was he went into the synagogue three sabbath days. Do you understand what the word manner means? Its definition is; a characteristic or customary mode of acting: custom: fashion. It was the law. (Acts 17:1-2) (v.2)

Paul went into the synagogue every sabbath, not every Sunday people, this is the apostle Paul, and it said that Paul reasoned with them out of the scriptures.
There is no dispute that Paul went to the synagogue every sabbath "reason with them out of the Scriptures". Why did he go on the sabbath? First, because it was "his" tradition ("his manner"). Secondly, that is when people were there. If there were no people there (as there weren't any other day of the week) then he would have been reasoning with himself, and no new disciples would have been made.
I wonder why Paul didn't enlighten them with some 1 Corinthians, or maybe hit them with some Galatians, or endow them with a little 2 Thessalonians, because these books were not around when Paul was preaching the gospel. He reasoned with them out of the scriptures, which are from Genesis to Malachi.
Paul was in the process of writing those letters during this time, and his writings were even then being accepted as being Scripture (2 Pet 3:16). And Paul would not teach one thing and then write another. He was consistent in his teaching with what we have that was written by him.
Again in (Acts 18:1, 4) (v.1) After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; (v.4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Why is Paul continuing to go into the church on the sabbath?
He didn't go to the Church. He went to the Jews who were worshiping on the sabbath, and was reasoning with them to bring them into the Church.
Because that’s when everybody that dealt with the God of this bible held their holy convocations, every sabbath (Saturday). That’s why you had the Jews (Israelites) and the Greeks (strangers) in the church on the sabbath day. Paul without any doubt whatsoever kept the seventh day sabbath which is Saturday.
Did he? No. In 1 Cor 9:19-23, Paul makes it clear that he changed his tactics, way of living, mannerisms, and activities to fit the people he was trying to reach at different times. To the Jews, he ate the Jewish diet, kept the Jewish day of worship, and observed the dress and customs of the Jews. But to the Gentiles, he lived as a Gentile, ate as a Gentile, and did not observe the Jewish day of worship (as the Gentiles did not also).
Let’s take a look and see what Jesus did when he came in the flesh, And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:14-16)
Jesus lived His entire life subject to the Old Covenant. The OC did not end until His death on the cross. So yes, Jesus kept the sabbath every week for His entire life. But after His death the sabbath was no longer a binding law on anyone.
I as a bible student have examined the bible testimonies on the first day of the week, there are eight to be exact, and without exception they are silent as to any of the disciples observing Sunday as a holy day.
You are correct, there is no commandment in the NT to keep the first day (Sunday) as a holy day. And there is also no commandment in the NT to keep the seventh day (Saturday) as a holy day. There is NO holy day specified in the NT.
How is it possible that these accounts, written over 40 years after the crucifixion, have neglected to mention Sunday sacredness? There is no biblical support for the changing of God’s holy sabbath from the seventh day (Saturday) to the first day (Sunday).
I agree. there is no support for ANY day being considered a holy day in the NT.
 
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