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The Church started in the wilderness

Doug Brents

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Going to church on Sunday,
Not a sin. There is no holy, sacred, special day for worship under the New Covenant.
the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter,
These were indeed originally pagan holidays, that were adapted, changed, and repurposed to Christian worship. However, there is no commandment to keep them, just as there was no commandment in the Old Covenant to keep Hanukkah (the festival of lights, or the feast of dedication), but even Jesus kept it (John 10:22-23). There is nothing wrong with celebrating these festivals and holidays, but there is sin in trying to make the mandatory for people to celebrate (just as it is wrong to try to force people to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant).
praying to the Virgin Mary,
As I have shown in other threads, this is absolutely sinful. And the religions which support/advocate this practice are far from the truth on this and many other topics (but the rules of this forum forbid me from expounding on that).
I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible, but a lot of work get put into them.
For most people (me included up until just a few years ago) there is no knowledge of the pagan origins of the holidays we celebrate to God. But it is to God that we celebrate those holidays, and so they are no longer pagan, but righteous. Just as eating meat that has been sacrificed to an idol, I know that the idol is nothing (just as the "gods" to whom Christmas and Easter were originally dedicated are nothing), and so the "nothing" cannot taint my worship of God.
But the Sabbath day is all through out the Bible and you going to trick yourself in believing the Sabbath day is done away with.
There is no trick. The OT contains the command to keep the sabbath, but the OT has been done away with, for it is obsolete (Heb 8:13). And there is no command in the NT that perpetuates the keeping of the sabbath.
Jesus made it clear that the seventh day was made for mankind. (Mark 2:27-28) (v.27) And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: Do we understand that, the Sabbath was made for us, not us for the Sabbath. (v.28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath. The Son of man (Jesus) is the Lord God of the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday).
That is true, but that fact does not perpetuate the necessity of keeping the sabbath. Jesus is Lord of the sabbath (He is actually Lord of everything), but He IS our rest, for it is into Him that we must unite ourselves to receive the rest that God has prepared for us (Matt 11:28, Heb 4:9).
Paul say in (1 Tim.4: 1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; The first day of the week, as the Sabbath day, is the doctrine of the devil.
The first day of the week is not the sabbath, and there are no modern doctrines (that I am aware of) that teach that it is. The sabbath is, and has always been, the seventh day, but we are not called to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant.
Satan is always trying to mimic God. So if it is not of God then it is of Satan. So if the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday) is a sign between God and His people. Then the first day (Sunday) is a sign between somebody and his people.
Wrong again. The first day is the "Lord's Day", as is mentioned in Rev 1:10. It is Jesus' day, not Satan's. It is Jesus' in honor of the day He arose from the dead, validating our faith and giving us the hope of eternal life with Him.
You can’t have it both ways you are either in or out. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 11: 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Also Paul say in (1 Cor.10:20-22) (v.20) “and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils”. (v.21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. (v.22) Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
There are no two ways about it. The OT is gone, and the NT is now. We are only subject to what the NT commands, and the NT does not command sabbath worship.
 
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Leaf473

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"make fringes on the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put on the fringe of each border a cord of blue. 39 It shall be to you for a fringe, that you may see it, and remember all the Lord’s commandments" Numbers 15

If we follow God's instructions as they are written, we will have physical fringes on our clothes

Some explanations that I've heard is that we now have the Holy Spirit to help us remember, or that we are clothed with Christ

Those are both fine explanations, but it doesn't look to me like they fit with following God's instructions as they are written :heart:
 
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Doug Brents

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"make fringes on the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put on the fringe of each border a cord of blue. 39 It shall be to you for a fringe, that you may see it, and remember all the Lord’s commandments" Numbers 15

If we follow God's instructions as they are written, we will have physical fringes on our clothes

Some explanations that I've heard is that we now have the Holy Spirit to help us remember, or that we are clothed with Christ

Those are both fine explanations, but it doesn't look to me like they fit with following God's instructions as they are written :heart:
That is an Old Covenant commandment, and we are not under the Old Covenant anymore. So that commandment has no value or impact on the life of the NT Christ follower.
 
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Aaron112

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There is nothing wrong with celebrating these festivals and holidays
There may be. What does Jesus Say Today..... Is there something He Says that is so vital, so much more important, even so life-giving , that to ignore Him is to risk everything ?
 
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Leaf473

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That is an Old Covenant commandment, and we are not under the Old Covenant anymore. So that commandment has no value or impact on the life of the NT Christ follower.
I agree. I was using it as an example of what we would do if we kept the instructions given through Moses as they were written

There are no fringes on my clothes. I think it's good to look to the law of Moses for wisdom, but we don't keep those instructions as they are written

That includes both instructions on the Sabbath and fringes on our clothes :heart:

 
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Leaf473

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Who indeed and in truth keeps Jesus' Word Today ?
I think all serious Christians try to keep Jesus' word as they understand them

When you say "Jesus' word", are you thinking of just quotes of Jesus in the Gospels? Or things that Jesus spoke through his prophets and Apostles in the Epistles?
 
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Doug Brents

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There may be. What does Jesus Say Today..... Is there something He Says that is so vital, so much more important, even so life-giving , that to ignore Him is to risk everything ?
If your faith is so small and weak that the keeping of Christmas and Easter threatens your salvation, then absolutely you should not keep them. But for those of us whose faith is stronger, there is no sin in keeping these holidays (except in the case that it causes you to violate your conscience by keeping them)(1 Cor 8).
 
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Aaron112

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Does anyone realize JESUS IS ALIVE TODAY !?

And Jesus is actively always a good shepherd of His Own Sheep ?

Hebrews 13 Jesus says 'I will never, no never, not ever, ......' one of the only triple promises or assurances (unbreakable) throughout all of His Word, The Bible.
 
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Leaf473

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Does anyone realize JESUS IS ALIVE TODAY !?

And Jesus is actively always a good shepherd of His Own Sheep ?

Hebrews 13 Jesus says 'I will never, no never, not ever, ......' one of the only triple promises or assurances (unbreakable) throughout all of His Word, The Bible.
I definitely realize that, and amen!

Jesus is alive, being the Good Shepherd, being the head of his body, the church...

Glory to God!
 
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ralliann

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If your faith is so small and weak that the keeping of Christmas and Easter threatens your salvation, then absolutely you should not keep them. But for those of us whose faith is stronger, there is no sin in keeping these holidays (except in the case that it causes you to violate your conscience by keeping them)(1 Cor 8).
What is keeping Christmas and Easter?
Go to any assembly when we gather as a Church to celebrate, what is so offensive? Or what we do otherwise? There is a distinction between the two.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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And changed- the Passover which people celebrate as Easter was never meant to be celebrated on a yearly Sunday. The RCC changed this when in God’s Word it could fall on any day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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God's thoughts are so much higher than man's thoughts, and so different.....
Yes, He tells us His ways His will Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 man fights and tries to change it. Nothing new under the sun.
 
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ralliann

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And changed- the Passover which people celebrate as Easter was never meant to be celebrated on a yearly Sunday. The RCC changed this when in God’s Word it could fall on any day.
This is not accurate. The Orthodox celebrate "PASCHA", and the early church celebrated Pascha. Easter is relatively new term....
 
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Doug Brents

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And changed- the Passover which people celebrate as Easter was never meant to be celebrated on a yearly Sunday. The RCC changed this when in God’s Word it could fall on any day.
The Passover was changed by Jesus into the Lords Supper, and it was authorized by Him to be done "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup". That can be annually, monthly, weekly, daily, or any other set, or random, time frame.
 
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ralliann

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The Passover was changed by Jesus into the Lords Supper, and it was authorized by Him to be done "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup". That can be annually, monthly, weekly, daily, or any other set, or random, time frame.
Yes, the Lord's supper is distinct as a passover. No amount of Rabbinic ritual added to that makes it a passover, and no lack of rabbinic ritual abolishes it a passover either.
 
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Doug Brents

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Yes, the Lord's supper is distinct as a passover. No amount of Rabbinic ritual added to that makes it a passover, and no lack of rabbinic ritual abolishes it a passover either.
This is true.

However, I have found great value in participating in (and also hosting) a full Messianic Passover sader. Seeing the four cups of wine in the sader, and experiencing the first one after dinner (the third cup; the Cup of Redemption) for the first time had a tremendous impact on me. The history, symbology, and significance of what is eaten, taught, etc. is very moving, and I would recommend that anyone who is able to find a Messianic Passover in their area plan on attending it. (If you are in the Atlanta, GA area, hit me with a PM and I may invite you to the next one I host (around Apr 12, 2025).
 
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ralliann

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This is true.

However, I have found great value in participating in (and also hosting) a full Messianic Passover sader. Seeing the four cups of wine in the sader, and experiencing the first one after dinner (the third cup; the Cup of Redemption) for the first time had a tremendous impact on me. The history, symbology, and significance of what is eaten, taught, etc. is very moving, and I would recommend that anyone who is able to find a Messianic Passover in their area plan on attending it. (If you are in the Atlanta, GA area, hit me with a PM and I may invite you to the next one I host (around Apr 12, 2025).
I have attended a few in my time involved in a Messianic shul. The four glasses etc. all Rabbinic additions (traditions handed down). But is not the Lord's supper.... The cup of the Lord is it's own seder.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1 cor 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, <3862>as I delivered them to you.

3862 παράδοσις paradosis par-ad’-os-is

from 3860; n f; TDNT-2:172,166; {See TDNT 191}

AV-tradition 12, ordinance 1; 13

1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, esp. ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence


1 Cor 11:
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. {heresies: or, sects }
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. {this … : or, ye cannot eat }
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
Drunken?

1. Having consumed their four glasses of wine beforehand? As I say I have attended a few seders and yes I have seen the tipsy.......As well as others making mention quietly in my ear at the table. It is why the seder lasts so long to spread the cups out a bit. Giving time to consume four cups slowly.


23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. {in … : or, for a remembrance }
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. {ye do … : or, shew ye }
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions <3862> which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Of course Romans quoted above is such an epistle
 
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Bro.T

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Not a sin. There is no holy, sacred, special day for worship under the New Covenant.

The keeping of Sunday as the Christian Sabbath is not of God but of Man. If you are a true Christian, which means a follower of Christ or to be Christ like; then why are you following a day set up by man? We have proved that Paul kept the Lord’s Sabbath well after the death and resurrection of Christ. So why are you going to church on the first day of the week? Well if you don’t know history will tell you why.


ORIGIN OF SUNDAY WORSHIP


Ample evidence from history shows that the celebration of Sunday originated from pagan practices of SUN WORSHIP. In March of 321 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was at first a sun-worshiper and later a Christian convert, issued the first decree declaring Sunday to be a legal day of rest. In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day.

These were indeed originally pagan holidays, that were adapted, changed, and repurposed to Christian worship. However, there is no commandment to keep them, just as there was no commandment in the Old Covenant to keep Hanukkah (the festival of lights, or the feast of dedication), but even Jesus kept it (John 10:22-23). There is nothing wrong with celebrating these festivals and holidays, but there is sin in trying to make the mandatory for people to celebrate (just as it is wrong to try to force people to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant).

As I have shown in other threads, this is absolutely sinful. And the religions which support/advocate this practice are far from the truth on this and many other topics (but the rules of this forum forbid me from expounding on that).

For most people (me included up until just a few years ago) there is no knowledge of the pagan origins of the holidays we celebrate to God. But it is to God that we celebrate those holidays, and so they are no longer pagan, but righteous. Just as eating meat that has been sacrificed to an idol, I know that the idol is nothing (just as the "gods" to whom Christmas and Easter were originally dedicated are nothing), and so the "nothing" cannot taint my worship of God.
In the scriptures it's written Exodus 20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: The sun was the main god of the heathen even back as far as ancient Babylon. Since they worshiped the sun on Sunday, the compromising church leaders could see that if they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, it would accomplish several things. Number one - it would separate them from the Jews who were hated by many of the Romans and who, along with Jesus, And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luke 4:16), had been worshiping on Saturday from the beginning (and still do today). Number two - it would make it much easier for the pagans to come into the church if the Christians met on the same day that the pagan world did.


It worked well. Pagans flocked in by the thousands. Satan's plan of compromise was doing its baleful work. The change was attempted gradually but many of the true hearted, loyal Christians were alarmed. They came to the leaders and wanted to know why they had dared tamper with the law of Almighty God! The church leaders knew this would happen - and they had an answer ready. It's a masterpiece. If a person doesn't know the bible well it sounds good.


The people were told that they were worshiping on Sunday now because Jesus rose from the dead on that day.


There's not even one verse in the Bible that tells us to do this, but that's what they were told. Isn't it amazing! Maybe you've even heard that yourself!


When Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became the state religion you remember. As thousands of sun-worshipers flocked into the church, it wasn't long before they had a dominating influence. Most of his top officials had been sun-worshipers. Because the Roman government was getting shaky, Constantine consulted with his aides and with the church officials in Rome.


"What shall we do? How can we unite and stabilize the government?"


The counsel of the church leaders was timely.


"Pass a Sunday law. Force everyone to cease work and honor Sunday."


That was it! It would satisfy the sun-worshiping pagans, and unite pagans, Christians, and the Roman empire as never before.


The year is 321 A.D. Constantine, yielding to the suggestion of church leaders passes the first Sunday law! Here it is, straight out of the record:


"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun" Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3.


The Christians who would not compromise and dishonor God found themselves in a dilemma. Satan had worked things around so that you were forced to honor the pagan "day of the sun" or pay the penalty. Even after the Emperor's Sunday law, many Christians continued to honor and keep holy the seventh-day Sabbath that their Saviour had kept. God knew what was going on and had predicted that the man of sin would "think to change times and laws." Satan was about to pull off a world-wide hoax.


Bibles were forbidden by the priests. As the years went by, the new generations (without Bibles) would forget all about the Sabbath of the Lord.


Not only that - from time to time, great church councils were held. In nearly every one, the Sabbath which God had given as a memorial of His creation of the world was pressed down and Sunday was exalted. The pagan festival finally came to be regarded as the "Lord's day" (by Pope Sylvester, 314-337 A.D.) and the church leaders pronounced the Bible Sabbath a relic of the Jews, and those who honored it, in obedience to the fourth commandment of God, were pronounced to be "accursed."


To rip out the commandment right in the center, put in Sun- day worship as a counterfeit, take the Bibles away, and command the whole world to accept it - this was the king of all swindles!

There is no trick. The OT contains the command to keep the sabbath, but the OT has been done away with, for it is obsolete (Heb 8:13). And there is no command in the NT that perpetuates the keeping of the sabbath.

That is true, but that fact does not perpetuate the necessity of keeping the sabbath. Jesus is Lord of the sabbath (He is actually Lord of everything), but He IS our rest, for it is into Him that we must unite ourselves to receive the rest that God has prepared for us (Matt 11:28, Heb 4:9).
That rest day is talking about after the second coming of Christ

The first day of the week is not the sabbath, and there are no modern doctrines (that I am aware of) that teach that it is. The sabbath is, and has always been, the seventh day, but we are not called to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant.
This is why it starts off Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God”.
(Exodus 20: 8,9,10). You steep in Roman Christianity, serving other God's (paganism and removing the Sabbath day, which you can't read not even close to it, nor keeping the first day of the week Sunday.
Wrong again. The first day is the "Lord's Day", as is mentioned in Rev 1:10. It is Jesus' day, not Satan's. It is Jesus' in honor of the day He arose from the dead, validating our faith and giving us the hope of eternal life with Him.

There are no two ways about it. The OT is gone, and the NT is now. We are only subject to what the NT commands, and the NT does not command sabbath worship.
 
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