The Church started in the wilderness

[Bro.T]

There is actually very little evidence that either is pagan.

Neither have anything to do with God (Jesus).

 

[Bro.T]

This would be a commandment outside of the 10 which would be inconsistent on your part. What gives you the authority to hand pick what you call God's commandments and then sweep the rest under a rug? Is not circumscion God's commandment? It certainly was for Abraham as it is the sign of an everlasting covenant between him and God for generations to come, the same language used for the Sabbath (and explicitly in the flesh) It was for Moses as he was almost put to death for not being obedient to this commandment. How do you justify cutting one but not the other?

All have sinned (broken the law...Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). When Jesus (the true Lamb of God) was sacrificed, he removed our past sins. If we accept Jesus as our sin offering, we are required to repent and get baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS ("there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved..."(Acts 4: 12).

To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27).

 

[JSRG]

ORIGIN OF SUNDAY WORSHIP


Ample evidence from history shows that the celebration of Sunday originated from pagan practices of SUN WORSHIP. In March of 321 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine, who was at first a sun-worshiper and later a Christian convert, issued the first decree declaring Sunday to be a legal day of rest.

Constantine may have been the first to issue such a decree legally, but Christians had already abandoned the idea one must rest on the Sabbath and were already celebrating Sunday as their primary day of worship centuries beforehand.

In 336 A.D., the Roman Catholic Church officially changed the observance of Sabbath to Sunday for political and economic expediency. Since then, the original Sabbath gradually gave way to Sunday observance and the practice remains to this day.

What is your evidence that the Roman Catholic Church made such a change in 336 AD? I searched through the topic to see if perhaps there was some point in which you had offered evidence, but as far as I can tell despite your repeated claims, you have offered no evidence of this claim.

Certainly, this idea it happened then would surely have been a surprise to Justin Martyr when he wrote nearly two centuries earlier "Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly" (First Apology Chapter LXVII) and made it clear that Christians did not observe the Sabbath in "Dialogue with Trypho".

If my response above seems familiar to anyone, it should. A number of pages ago you wrote up this exact paragraph ("Ample evidence" through "economic expediency") word-for-word prior, and I brought up the above issues with it. But instead of responding to anything I said, you instead ignored point and went on an unrelated rant. So here we go again, and we'll see if you actually answer any of these points.

This time you go on for a bit longer, though, and make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Because they're all unsubstantiated there's not much to say about them, but I'd be remiss to not at least point out some particularly obvious errors:

When Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became the state religion you remember.

Christianity didn't become the state religion under Constantine. That only happened in the Edict of Thessalonica, which was issued more than 40 years after Constantine died.

The pagan festival finally came to be regarded as the "Lord's day" (by Pope Sylvester, 314-337 A.D.)

Aside from your lack of evidence that it was ever a "pagan festival", this implication that it was "finally" regarded as such by Pope Sylvester is blatantly wrong, given that we have Christian texts refer to Sunday as the "Lord's Day" at least as far back as the second century.

 

[JSRG]

Neither have anything to do with God (Jesus).

Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus, and Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus. How do they not have to do with Jesus?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why Passover Was Changed to Easter Sunday​

In English, Easter and Passover are two different words. But most languages only have one word to describe Passover and Easter. For example, in Greek and Latin, the word Pascha can mean Passover or Easter.

Are Easter and Passover the same thing, or are they two different festivals?

What is Passover?​

The first direct mention of Passover in the Bible is in Exodus 12. Moses and Aaron told Pharaoh that God would kill all of the firstborn in Egypt if he would not let the Israelites leave Egypt. Then God gave the Israelites instructions for keeping the Passover.

Each family, together with their neighbors, were to choose a perfect lamb and kill it after sunset at the beginning of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar. Then they were required to brush some of the blood of the lamb around their door, and eat the lamb inside their home that night. (Exodus 12:1-8)

That night, when an angel came to kill the firstborn in Egypt, the angel passed over the houses that were marked with blood (Exodus 12:23, 29).

In the Gospels we learn that the lamb represents Jesus, who is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29). Jesus kept the Passover with His disciples on the night that He was betrayed (Matthew 26:17-30).

What is Easter?​

An English Monk named Bede wrote a book about the English calendar 725 AD. He explains that in England, the Passover season was called Easter because in former times the people had celebrated a spring festival at that time in honor of a goddess named Eostre. (Bede, The Reckoning of Time, chapter 15). In addition to changing the name from Passover to Easter, many traditions were added to this festival, such as Easter eggs, rabbits, and hot crossed buns. These customs were borrowed from pre-Christian spring holidays that celebrated fertility.

So Easter began as the Passover, but over time many customs were added or changed. So now the connection between Easter and the original day of worship is hard to recognize.

What Was the Original Christian Passover Like?​

If you open your Bible, you will see that Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples on the night before He was crucified (Matthew 26:17-30). This was at the normal time for the Passover, in the evening, at the beginning of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar. The apostle John tells us that the day that began the next evening at sunset was a “high day” Sabbath (John 19:31), which was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which begins on the 15th day of the month.

Now look at 1 Corinthians 11 to see how Christians celebrated the Passover after Jesus rose from the dead. Here the Apostle Paul explains what he learned directly from Jesus:

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-24, NKJV)

Jesus told His disciples to remember Him by following the example He gave to them that night. In other words, in original Christianity, Christians celebrated the Passover with the symbols of bread and wine, and with foot washing (John 13:15). All of the apostles, did exactly what Jesus taught them. They kept the Christian Passover, with the New Covenant symbols of the bread and wine, on the night of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar.

We find that more than 150 years later, the churches in Asia Minor (western Turkey), were still keeping the Christian Passover in the same way and on the same day as the apostles.

Around 190 AD, leaders from other areas tried to force the Christians in Asia Minor to keep the Passover on Sunday, instead of on the 14th day of the first month on the Hebrew calendar. Polycrates, a leader in the church at Ephesus wrote to the bishop of Rome, and gave along list of names of people in Asia Minor who all kept the 14th day, including Phillip and John who were among the original 12 Apostles of Jesus. This is what Polycrates wrote next:

”All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven.

I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ‘We ought to obey God rather than man.‘” (Eusebius, Church History, 5.23.6-7)

Polycrates confidently declared that the date he and the others in Asia Minor kept was confirmed by the Bible and by tradition going all the way back to the 12 Apostles of Jesus.

More than 100 years later, the Council of Nicaea decreed in 325 AD that Easter must be kept on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, and that the Hebrew calendar must not be used to determine the date of Easter. After that time, everyone who continued to keep the Christian Passover on the original date was called a heretic. That is how the Easter Sunday date finally became law.

People who still practice original Christianity celebrate the Christian Passover on the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar.

Why Passover Was Changed to Easter Sunday

thecleartruth.com

 

[Leaf473]

Interesting conundrum about the charge of things being changed in the past

The people who are said to have changed things are often the same people who are relied on for what is scripture and what is not

 

[ralliann]

Why Passover Was Changed to Easter Sunday​

In English, Easter and Passover are two different words. But most languages only have one word to describe Passover and Easter. For example, in Greek and Latin, the word Pascha can mean Passover or Easter.

Are Easter and Passover the same thing, or are they two different festivals?

What is Passover?​

The first direct mention of Passover in the Bible is in Exodus 12. Moses and Aaron told Pharaoh that God would kill all of the firstborn in Egypt if he would not let the Israelites leave Egypt. Then God gave the Israelites instructions for keeping the Passover.

Each family, together with their neighbors, were to choose a perfect lamb and kill it after sunset at the beginning of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar. Then they were required to brush some of the blood of the lamb around their door, and eat the lamb inside their home that night. (Exodus 12:1-8)

That night, when an angel came to kill the firstborn in Egypt, the angel passed over the houses that were marked with blood (Exodus 12:23, 29).

In the Gospels we learn that the lamb represents Jesus, who is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29). Jesus kept the Passover with His disciples on the night that He was betrayed (Matthew 26:17-30).

What is Easter?​

An English Monk named Bede wrote a book about the English calendar 725 AD. He explains that in England, the Passover season was called Easter because in former times the people had celebrated a spring festival at that time in honor of a goddess named Eostre. (Bede, The Reckoning of Time, chapter 15). In addition to changing the name from Passover to Easter, many traditions were added to this festival, such as Easter eggs, rabbits, and hot crossed buns. These customs were borrowed from pre-Christian spring holidays that celebrated fertility.

So Easter began as the Passover, but over time many customs were added or changed. So now the connection between Easter and the original day of worship is hard to recognize.

What Was the Original Christian Passover Like?​

If you open your Bible, you will see that Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples on the night before He was crucified (Matthew 26:17-30). This was at the normal time for the Passover, in the evening, at the beginning of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar. The apostle John tells us that the day that began the next evening at sunset was a “high day” Sabbath (John 19:31), which was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which begins on the 15th day of the month.

Now look at 1 Corinthians 11 to see how Christians celebrated the Passover after Jesus rose from the dead. Here the Apostle Paul explains what he learned directly from Jesus:


Jesus told His disciples to remember Him by following the example He gave to them that night. In other words, in original Christianity, Christians celebrated the Passover with the symbols of bread and wine, and with foot washing (John 13:15). All of the apostles, did exactly what Jesus taught them. They kept the Christian Passover, with the New Covenant symbols of the bread and wine, on the night of the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar.

We find that more than 150 years later, the churches in Asia Minor (western Turkey), were still keeping the Christian Passover in the same way and on the same day as the apostles.

Around 190 AD, leaders from other areas tried to force the Christians in Asia Minor to keep the Passover on Sunday, instead of on the 14th day of the first month on the Hebrew calendar. Polycrates, a leader in the church at Ephesus wrote to the bishop of Rome, and gave along list of names of people in Asia Minor who all kept the 14th day, including Phillip and John who were among the original 12 Apostles of Jesus. This is what Polycrates wrote next:



Polycrates confidently declared that the date he and the others in Asia Minor kept was confirmed by the Bible and by tradition going all the way back to the 12 Apostles of Jesus.

More than 100 years later, the Council of Nicaea decreed in 325 AD that Easter must be kept on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, and that the Hebrew calendar must not be used to determine the date of Easter. After that time, everyone who continued to keep the Christian Passover on the original date was called a heretic. That is how the Easter Sunday date finally became law.

People who still practice original Christianity celebrate the Christian Passover on the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar.

Why Passover Was Changed to Easter Sunday

thecleartruth.com

Easter Sunday memorializes his resurrection. The dispute you are referencing was concerning when to break a fast. And the dispute was settled that each would keep the customs handed down to them.
The lords supper memorializes his death.
1 Cor 15
Below is the importance of Christ being raised...

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

The easter/Passover season Unleavened bread was also called by the Jews passover

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Wow- how does one take how the Passover was changed to make it about, I do not think it was important for Christ to raise from the dead.
Jesus never commanded us to memorializes His resurrection. He did command us to memorialize His Creation every Sabbath Exo 20:8-11 Gen 2:1-3 Mar 2:27-28 Heb 4:4,9-10 so we know Who created us and where we came from.

 

[ralliann]

Wow- how does one take how the Passover was changed to make it about, I do not think it was important for Christ to raise from the dead. Amazing.

Wow that's what you got out of that? Never mind SB, it was not my intent to offend you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Wow that's what you got out of that? Never mind SB, it was not my intent to offend you.

My apologies, if I misunderstood what you meant.

 

[ralliann]

My apologies, if I misunderstood what you meant.

I merely gave scripture, which related to the easter dispute in the Church. The distinction between the two at that time, in Easter/Passover "season". The Church in the west emphasized his resurrection on the day. (breaking the fast with) The Lord's supper (his death). The Asian Church which you quoted ,them following the bishops before them.... ...

Lk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

1 Cor1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech }

I also believe this occurred due to any appearance of evil. Gentiles were not permitted to eat of the Jewish passover sacrifice. Therefore would not memorialize Christ in such a manner....

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I merely gave scripture, which related to the easter dispute in the Church. The distinction between the two at that time, in Easter/Passover "season". The Church in the west emphasized his resurrection on the day. (breaking the fast with) The Lord's supper (his death). The Asian Church which you quoted ,them following the bishops before them.... ...

Lk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

1 Cor1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech }

I also believe this occurred due to any appearance of evil. Gentiles were not permitted to eat of the Jewish passover sacrifice. Therefore would not memorialize Christ in such a manner....

It was this statement I was referring to

Below is the importance of Christ being raised...

It seemed to indicate that I was not aware the importance of Christ's resurrection. Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your intent.

I am not denying the Passover. Jesus is our Passover Lamb and was fulfilled in Him 1 Corinthians 5:7 John 1:29, His death was once Hebrews 9:28

Back to the article I posted I do not believe the way people celebrate Passover today i.e. Easter is the way it was meant in scripture.

 

[ralliann]

It was this statement I was referring to



It seemed to indicate that I was not aware the importance of Christ's resurrection. Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your intent.

I am not denying the Passover. Jesus is our Passover Lamb and was fulfilled in Him 1 Corinthians 5:7 John 1:29, His death was once Hebrews 9:28

Back to the article I posted I do not believe the way people celebrate Passover today i.e. Easter is the way it was meant in scripture.

I was simply looking at what the issues probably were concerning the Pascha SEASON back then with them. It concerned the Lords supper (our passover Sacrifice) (eucharist) Which Communion showed the LORD'S death. No matter when you partake of it.....So the dispute was settled and the western Church SENDING the Eucharist to the Asian bishop/ bishops..... It was about Both Churches keeping a fast, and breaking the fast. And when they did that.
I was talking about them.
Which Paul says....Let us therefore Keep the feast (unleavened bread).

If it applies at all to Messianics, It would be the insistence it is not a passover unless according to Moses alone.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I was simply looking at what the issues probably were concerning the Pascha SEASON back then with them. It concerned the Lords supper (our passover Sacrifice) (eucharist) Which Communion showed the LORD'S death. No matter when you partake of it.....So the dispute was settled and the western Church SENDING the Eucharist to the Asian bishop/ bishops..... It was about Both Churches keeping a fast, and breaking the fast. And when they did that.
I was talking about them.
Which Paul says....Let us therefore Keep the feast (unleavened bread).

If it applies at all to Messianics, It would be the insistence it is not a passover unless according to Moses alone.

I think we may have a different understanding "Church", my point is about how the Passover was changed, never meant to be always on a Sunday according to scripture, never does it say we could change it, it was fulfilled in Christ. I believe we should partake in communion - bread, juice, feet washing, to for remembrance of Christ's great sacrifice, but some churches take this too far is saying it is Christ's literal blood, Christ sacrifice was once and for all Heb 9:26-28- remembering is fine but sacrificing Him all over again takes it to a level that was never meant to be.

 

[ralliann]

I think we may have a different understanding "Church", my point is about how the Passover was changed, never meant to be always on a Sunday according to scripture, never does it say we could change it, it was fulfilled in Christ. I believe we should partake in communion - bread, juice, feet washing, to for remembrance of Christ's great sacrifice, but some churches take this too far is saying it is Christ's literal blood, Christ sacrifice was once and for all Heb 9:26-28- remembering is fine but sacrificing Him all over again takes it to a level that was never meant to be.

Heb 9:28 is about the many sacrifices for various reasons according to the law by LeviticaL PRIESTS.
Christs sacrifice is once, because all those sacrifices were mere shadows of him and his sacrifice.
Christ did not need to be sacrificed on the day of first fruits, He did not need to be offered on Pentecost, on the day of Atonement. His one time Sacrifice was effective for THEM ALL.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Heb 9:28 is about the many sacrifices for various reasons according to the law by LeviticaL PRIESTS.
Christs sacrifice is once, because all those sacrifices were mere shadows of him and his sacrifice.
Christ did not need to be sacrificed on the day of first fruits, He did not need to be offered on Pentecost, on the day of Atonement. His one time Sacrifice was effective for THEM ALL.

Hebrews 9 is about Christ's sacrifice

26 He (Jesus) then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[ralliann]

Hebrews 9 is about Christ's sacrifice

Yes, I said that.....

26 He (Jesus) then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Yes, ONCE Effective for all sin, for all ages.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, I said that.....

Yes, ONCE Effective for all sin, for all ages.

The animal sacrifices and other various offerings etc were a shadow of Christ's sacrifice. Always pointing forward to Him. His sacrifice was for once for all ages and can cover all sin, but we have to do our part as well. As shown in Romans 6, 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13 Heb 10:26 etc. Jesus never came to save us in our sins, He came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21

 

[Leaf473]

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:27-28 - New American Standard Bible

Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ralliann]

The animal sacrifices and other various offerings etc were a shadow of Christ's sacrifice. Always pointing forward to Him. His sacrifice was for once for all ages and can cover all sin, but we have to do our part as well. As shown in Romans 6, 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13 Heb 10:26 etc. Jesus never came to save us in our sins, He came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.