WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

[bbbbbbb]

That's why we don't take that concept

Do you believe that the saints are omnipresent?

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you believe that the saints are omnipresent?

I don’t. I think even the angels have a definite physical location, although as spiritual beings, they can travel instantly (so can fallen angels, and this is how demons play various tricks in order to deceive us according to the Fathers of the Early Church, by appearing to grant foreknowledge of future events, when really they are simply conveying to us information about distant events instantly).

 

[BPPLEE]

Do you believe that the saints are omnipresent?

I believe the people who have died are dead. I don't believe that there are any dead people that we should pray to. I pray to Jesus and the Father
I understand that other people have been taught differently and I don't mean any disrespect to them

 

[Jipsah]

I So he would not ever have need to petition Mary his mother

"Mom, can I go outside after supper?"

, and I do not have the belief that she should be prayed to.

Then by all means don't.

I do believe he was kind and loving to her.

One would hope.

 

[Jipsah]

Do we have a name for that Samaritan woman so we can pray to her by name, or do we simply pray to her generically?

I reckon I'd ask the Mother of God to pray for me instead. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Jipsah]

I can pray to Him directly through Jesus Christ without any other mediators

Wait, really? So you pray, "Our Father, Who art in Heaven..." yourself? I've never known a Catholic to do that! (except maybe all the time, and every time we pray the rosary, and every time we're in trouble, or afraid, or happy, or thankful, or bewildered, or, well, you get the idea, maybe.

and I will receive answers to my prayers from Him.

And of course, you never, ever, ask any mere mortals to pray for you, because You Can Pray To God Your Own Own Self, right?

 

[BPPLEE]

Wait, really? So you pray, "Our Father, Who art in Heaven..." yourself? I've never known a Catholic to do that! (except maybe all the time, and every time we pray the rosary, and every time we're in trouble, or afraid, or happy, or thankful, or bewildered, or, well, you get the idea, maybe.

And of course, you never, ever, ask any mere mortals to pray for you, because You Can Pray To God Your Own Own Self, right?

Well, not any mortals who are dead, anyway. We just believe differently about that

 

[Jipsah]

Well, not any mortals who are dead, anyway. We just believe differently about that

Is this the "soul sleep" thing, and that the dead are just dead until resurrection?

 

[BPPLEE]

Is this the "soul sleep" thing, and that the dead are just dead until resurrection?

I don't know about all that I just don't believe that you can talk to the dead and I am pretty sure communication with the dead is condemned in the Bible
(Excluding the Apocrypha)

 

[Michie]

No it hasn’t. The saints are those who the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, the Assyrian Church of the East, and very many high church Anglicans have determined as a result of miracles to be among those alive in Heaven, and not deceased.

Since Salvation is through Theosis, and since those saved participate in the uncreated energies of God and are able to do this even while on Earth, the ability to hear the prayers of the faithful is nothing to remark at. And asking members of the Church Triumphant to pray for us is no different from asking friends and relatives to pray for us, and consequently has been the practice of the Christian Church since antiquity.

Indeed even some Iconoclasts continued in this practice. It was not until the advent of Calvinism that the idea that this somehow constituted worship appeared.

Furthermore, it can be logically demonstrated that the ability of the Church Triumphant to hear prayers does not require either Omnipotence or Omniscience, even if one adheres to the error of cessationism (which I regard as an error even though I absolutely reject the Pentecostal and Charismatic concept of what those gifts entail; rather, extremely pious Christians through prayer have been able to work various wonders for the benefit of the faithful since the time of the Apostles, and these have been coninually documented throughout the entire history of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholics, Assyrians and Anglo-Catholics and certain other liturgical Christians also report these miracles happening. But, even if we were to accept the idea of cessationism, and regard everyone who has witnessed a miracle performed by a Christian who has not yet reposed, after some arbitrary point in the history of the early church, as a liar or deluded, which is in my view uncharitable and also absurd, but if we do that, it still doesn’t matter.

That is because those saved are those who will enter the life of the world to come. Eternal life is, by nature, eternal. That means that it exists outside our conception of time. People experiencing everlasting life will be aware of prayer requests sent to them at any point in human history, and God in turn, being omniscient, will instantly be aware of those prayer requests the saints of the Church Triumphant feel He should act upon, just as He is aware of what His angels feel, and thus, if appropriate, will answer the prayer, which He would have done anyway, but asking those who God has saved to pray for us is a pious demonstration of our faith that God will save us as He has saved them, making us, as He has made them, by grace, what Christ is by nature. To quote St. Athanasius, the defender of the faith against Arianism at Nicaea and the saint who introduced to the world the 27 book New Testament canon which has since been adopted by all Christian churches (and also most heretical sects on the fringes of Christianity, since having a Bible with a different New Testament than that used by literally everyone else would make it very obvious that they were not authentically Christian), “God became man so that man could become god” and so that we could “by grace become what Christ is by nature.”

Theosis, also known as Entire Sanctification, even impacted the soteriology of John Calvin to some extent according to our friend @hedrick , although that is not to say that Calvin would agree with anything I have just written, for as far as I am aware, before Calvin, no one was opposed to the veneration of the saints, and Martin Luther was not initially opposed to seeking their intercession, but only later shifted in that direction unfortunately. Fortunately at least among Anglicans, intercessory prayer has become widespread once more, and I am working to promote it in other denominations, particularly among Calvinists and Methodists.

Oh, before anyone asks what the Scriptural basis for Theosis is, I would cite Psalm 81 LXX which according to the Early Church Fathers refers to members of the Church as Gods, exhorting us to be generous to the poor and needy, and likewise John 10:35 which refers to Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word of God, requiring Christians to love their neighbor as themselves and to love God with all their heart and mind (the correct interpretation of what Scripture requires), and of course to Galatians 3:27, which the Eastern Orthodox sang on Monday in lieu of the Trisagion Hymn* on the Feast of the Theophany, the Baptism of Christ our God, and which we will sing again at the Paschal Divine Liturgy at midnight on Easter Sunday, for earlier that day at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the morning of Holy Saturday (and also historically at the same time in the morning in the Roman church at the Paschal Vigil Mass - these being rare instances when a Vesperal liturgy or Vigils were celebrated in the Morning, the Energumens (Catechumens who were ready for Baptism) were born again of Water and the Spirit in the Baptismal Font while the Christological proof texts were read (at least 12 in the Tridentine lectionary, until Pope Pius XII radically changed everything in 1955 and destroyed all continuity with the Orthodox liturgy, and at least 14 in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy).

“As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia.”

Since we have put on Christ, and Christ is fully man and fully God, His humanity united to His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division, we can therefore assert that the doctrine of Theosis is fully Scriptural as the means by which we are saved through a living faith in our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and the Grace of God the Holy Spirit, our Comforter and Paraclete, for the Glory of the Father, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.

+

At any rate @bbbbbbb while we obviously disagree on this subject, I do look forward to having a discussion with you, as we have talked about previously, about church architecture, in Traditional Theology (where as a traditional Calvinist well versed in traditional church architecture and liturgics you are most welcome) in the very near future.

In addition, I fully respect your views on the subject, even though it should be evident I disagree; I should also note that I would not fault anyone for praying exclusively to God the Father, God the Son and/or God the Holy Ghost, as there exists in Orthodoxy no requirement to seek the intercession of the saints, although i personally have found it immensely spiritually profitable to do so, and my main regret in this regard is that I went through most of my life without doing it.

However, I absolutely oppose worshipping anyone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, for to God is due all Worship and Adoration, exclusively. Indeed we must be careful to not even adore other humans, which can be difficult. Particularly in romance, we must be careful to not make an idol of our prospective spouse, as it is so easy to do, because they will never be able to live up to the idol we have made of them, and this is probably the reason why many marriages fail.

I know I have never said this before @The Liturgist but but I find your posts so edifying. You are often a lifeline to many of us with your knowledge. Thank you.

 

[BPPLEE]

I know I have never said this before @The Liturgist but but I find your posts so edifying. You are often a lifeline to many of us with your knowledge. Thank you.

I have great respect for his knowledge and ability to convey it in a way that I can understand.

 

[Michie]

I have great respect for his knowledge and ability to convey it in a way that I can understand.

He’s a gem!

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you for your very kind words! I am in pretty severe pain these days and am struggling to recover from this illness so I can resume my work, so your prayers are appreciated. I am particularly upset because I was unable to attend the Feast of the Nativity at a Julian Calendar parish on Tuesday, or the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord at a Revised Julian parish on Monday. I was also sick on Gregorian Christmas.

 

[BPPLEE]

Thank you for your very kind words! I am in pretty severe pain these days and am struggling to recover from this illness so I can resume my work, so your prayers are appreciated. I am particularly upset because I was unable to attend the Feast of the Nativity at a Julian Calendar parish on Tuesday, or the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord at a Revised Julian parish on Monday. I was also sick on Gregorian Christmas.

I can empathize, I finally had surgery Dec 23rd after being off work for 3 months (I had spinal fusion and a laminectomy)
Monday the 6th I was supposed to get the staples out but I had a pulmonary embolism.
I still have nerve pain in my left leg, it's swollen because of DVT and my right knee is bone on bone.
I really want to get back to work

 

[Michie]

Praying for your recoveries @The Liturgist and @BPPLEE

 

[BPPLEE]

Praying for your recoveries @The Liturgist and @BPPLEE

Thank you

 

[The Liturgist]

I can empathize, I finally had surgery Dec 23rd after being off work for 3 months (I had spinal fusion and a laminectomy)
Monday the 6th I was supposed to get the staples out but I had a pulmonary embolism.
I still have nerve pain in my left leg, it's swollen because of DVT and my right knee is bone on bone.
I really want to get back to work

I had seven pulmonary emboli and was hospitalized for a week in January of 2023, but a series of painful injections made them go away, and I also had the opportunity to breath Xenon-135 and be injected with Technetium, which was thrilling. I’ve always wanted to inhale a neutron poison (poisonous to the reactions in nuclear reactors; some neutron poisons like boron are harmless, while others like Cadmium can give you heavy metal poisoning; Xenon-135 would be perfectly safe except despite being a neutron poison it is also unstable, radioactive with a short half life; it tends to break apart into lighter isotopes after a few hours, but the result is that if a fission reactor runs at reduced power output xenon-135 can accumulate in the core, “poisoning” the reactor, which requires a shutdown to maintain stability and safe operating conditions.

They did not shut down Chernobyl Unit 4 under these conditions, and worse, their boron control rods had graphite tips and were inserted slowly using a mechanical system rather than being dropped into the reactor rapidly (for instance, by being suspended using electromagnets as in many North American reactor designs like the CANDU reactors of Ontario, whose design I particularly like because they produce Tritium, which is in short supply, and can be refueled without a complete shutdown, because the fuel rods are loaded horizontally.

 

[BPPLEE]

I had seven pulmonary emboli and was hospitalized for a week in January of 2023, but a series of painful injections made them go away, and I also had the opportunity to breath Xenon-135 and be injected with Technetium, which was thrilling. I’ve always wanted to inhale a neutron poison (poisonous to the reactions in nuclear reactors; some neutron poisons like boron are harmless, while others like Cadmium can give you heavy metal poisoning; Xenon-135 would be perfectly safe except despite being a neutron poison it is also unstable, radioactive with a short half life; it tends to break apart into lighter isotopes after a few hours, but the result is that if a fission reactor runs at reduced power output xenon-135 can accumulate in the core, “poisoning” the reactor, which requires a shutdown to maintain stability and safe operating conditions.

They did not shut down Chernobyl Unit 4 under these conditions, and worse, their boron control rods had graphite tips and were inserted slowly using a mechanical system rather than being dropped into the reactor rapidly (for instance, by being suspended using electromagnets as in many North American reactor designs like the CANDU reactors of Ontario, whose design I particularly like because they produce Tritium, which is in short supply, and can be refueled without a complete shutdown, because the fuel rods are loaded horizontally.

Fortunately there was no damage to my heart so I am just taking Eliquis.
I have been having pain in my left leg for 3 years and had epidurals, blocks and Radio Frequency Ablation. The problem was in my back but the pain is in my leg.
I had surgery scheduled but September 25th they sent me home from work.
I had surgery moved up but the surgeon broke his leg.
I finally had surgery December 23rd then had the DVT and PE, Monday, 1-6
They have been really good about holding my job for me and I hope I can go back to work
(I work at the hospital I was admitted to)

 

[Valletta]

Do you believe that the saints are omnipresent?

I believe God is omnipresent. As part of our Creed, the Apostles Creed, we profess the communion of saints, and one meaning is that we are in communion with the saints in Heaven. We know that the saints in Heaven (see Revelation) offer our prayers to God. God makes the saints aware of our prayers.

 

[Jipsah]

I know I have never said this before @The Liturgist but but I find your posts so edifying. You are often a lifeline to many of us with your knowledge. Thank you.

Hear hear!