The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[BNR32FAN]

Eternal life. Never die. Live forever. Can never be lost, Will never leave nor forsake us

Anyone who chooses to turn away from Christ hasn’t been forsaken by Christ, they’ve forsaken Him. Jesus told His 12 disciples that they would be hated by the world and that in order to be saved they had to endure to the end.

““Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭16‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He told them the same thing again in chapter 24.

““Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In John 15:1-7 He warned them about failing to remain in Him. The only people present for that message were His 11 faithful apostles. None of the New Testament author’s taught eternal security, that’s why nobody taught it until the 16th century and it’s been rejected by every single church established by the apostles. That’s also why you can’t find it anywhere in the early church writings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No they didn’t, which is why the early church never taught it.

Actually yes they did, and the early church did teach it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nobody actually receives eternal life until they abide in Christ and endure to the end.

In other words. We have conditional life not eternal life

We are dead in tresspasses and sins, and the only way to be made alive is to abide and endure to the end. So we can never be made alive?

So you say that Paul taught that no one can lose their salvation, then why did he write to Timothy and tell him that if they deny Christ that Christ would deny them if he taught that they can’t lose their salvation?

John said those who deny christ have never been part of us. So we should not be worried if they leave us. The left to prove they were never of us. So those people did not lose salvation.

Paul also said when we are faithless he is faithful he can not deny himself.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How could Christ deny Paul and Timothy if they can’t lose their salvation?

Again, John

1 john 2:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

it is quite clear there are those in the church pretending to be christians, who have not come to faith. And later walk away denying christ.

John said these people were not of us..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh, I see, so you've got a "spiritualised interpretation".

no I got a literal interpretation

Jesus said we would never perish, Yet everyone since he was here perished. So he could not be talking about eternal physical life. And he was not.

eternal life refers to the fullness of life with God, which begins with faith in Christ and is fulfilled in the afterlife.

No, it refers to the life we have in christ. We who were dead in tresspasses and sin have been made alive. And the duration of this new life is eternal or forever.

It's a central concept of Christian faith, encompassing the belief in life after death and the hope of resurrection.

The hope of the ressurection is what we trust in, If we do nto have eternal life. We can have no hope. Our faith turns from god and points to self. Because we have to do whatever God requires or we will be lost.

I mean, lets put ourselves back under law why don’t we..

Christians describe eternal life as the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. This life with God is characterized by seeing God "face to face" in the Beatific Vision, where one shares in God's own life, in perfect love, peace, and joy, free from suffering and sin.

Well whoever says this does nto understand what it is.

Eternal life is not just an extension of temporal existence but a different, supernatural form of existence altogether. It's a life that transcends physical death, granted by God's grace, and is experienced fully in heaven for those who have lived in accordance with God's will.

lol.. If this is eternal life. You can have it ,because it does not guarantee anything, it puts you back under law.

Well, isn't that the case with every human being?

No. he who does not believe is condemned, the wage of sin is death. What the unbeliever has is death, if he leaves this world in that state, he would have eternal death

You didn't offer any explanation of the passages; I can list a bunch of passages too and will it do any good to complain that you didn't comment on them all? In fact, let's treat it as read that I listed a bunch of passages, and now the onus is on you to explain them all.

Actually i did explain them, actually even if I did not you could just read them, take them literally.

either what these men said in those verses are true. Or they are all liars.. I might as well go eat drink and be merry, Its all i have

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. We place faith in Christ. Not self. why is this so bad?

It’s bad because it’s not the gospel. The gospel teaches that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. The gospel is not whatever we want it to be. The Bible teaches us the word of God and the whole purpose of reading it is to learn what God is trying to teach us and there is only ONE TRUTH AND IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO PERSONAL OR POPULAR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. We’re not free to interpret it however we please, we’re supposed to be interpreting it the way it was intended to be interpreted and we don’t arrive at a sound interpretation by ignoring passages that contradict our theology or twisting them to coincide with our theology.

So they lose eternal life. Fall away, yet even though the word says if we could fall away, we can never be renewed. You have us being saved again?

this does not make sense

I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to a very special case where someone has made a deliberate decision to turn away from God, not someone who has fallen into error. And I think the reason it is impossible to renew this type of person to repentance is because they aren’t willing to comply. I don’t think that the passage is saying that God won’t allow them to repent. I don’t see anything in the passage that would support such an idea.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In other words. We have conditional life not eternal life

We have the hope of eternal life.

“Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s bad because it’s not the gospel.

Well there you have it folks. @BNR32FAN does not believe the gospel is faith in christ. Not in self. I mean, can i say much more?

The gospel teaches that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. The gospel is not whatever we want it to be. The Bible teaches us the word of God and the whole purpose of reading it is to learn what God is trying to teach us and there is only ONE TRUTH AND IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO PERSONAL OR POPULAR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. We’re not free to interpret it however we please, we’re supposed to be interpreting it the way it was intended to be interpreted and we don’t arrive at a sound interpretation by ignoring passages that contradict our theology or twisting them to coincide with our theology.

The gospel is the good news of jesus
the gospel is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
the gospel is the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. Through jesus christ
The gospel is we earn condemnation. according to the law. We are under a curse, because cursed is the one who does not obey every word (james says if we keep the whole law and stumble (accident) in one point we are guilty of all
The gospel says like the children of Israel. Who suffered a death sentence when they were bitten by snakes. Could be freed from that death if only they trust God and in faith look to the serpent. Those who did not look (in unbelief) suffered the death they already were condemned with In like manner, we who are dead in our tresspasses and sin, can look with that same faith to Christ, who was hung on the cross. And if we do. We have jesus own promise (he said it twice so it is truth and not arguable) that we are born again, we will NEVER PERiSH again, and we have eternal life.

again, Jesus said we must be born again, we are dead spiritually, we all have that death sentence, if we believe in god and look to that cross he will make us alive (regeneration) and we will never die, but we will live forever.

Paul makes it clear. It is not by good deeds we have done, but by his mercy he saved us by this washing (washed int he blood0 and renewal (new birth) of Jesus

no works are involved, your guilty, you will never be un guilty and you will continue to fall short. God is not going to give this law that condemned anyone who sins, then later say we are ok if we sin as long as we do these good deeds. That is not the gospel

I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to a very special case where someone has made a deliberate decision to turn away from God, not someone who has fallen into error. And I think the reason it is impossible to renew this type of person to repentance is because they aren’t willing to comply. I don’t think that the passage is saying that God won’t allow them to repent. I don’t see anything in the passage that would support such an idea.

The book of Hebrews is written to the jews. the jews wanted or were tempted to return to the law
According to the law. One could be redeemed by animal sacrifice, and be right with God. Then if they sinned, they were lost but all they had to do was offer another sacrifice and they would be renewed to repentance.

The author is making it clear. If this was possible (if we could fall away, we could not be renewed to repentance (The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin and jesus only died once. if his death did not cover your sin, your lost, he will not come back down and die again. And claiming that you could lose salvation puts him to open shame, crucifying him again

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We have the hope of eternal life.

Yes, faith is the substance of things hoped for

If i do not have assurance that i will have eternal life. I have no hope. if i do nto have hope i do not have faith

My faith will be in whatever i trust. if I trust my good deeds, how good i am, if i do what I am told. And do not do what I am told not to do as a means of my eternal life. My hope is in self

if I trust in the promise of God. Based on his death, and his promise, that if i partake of him, look to him, seek him and cry out to him, i will live forever. Then my faith is in him

“Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Thank you for sharing what I said

we are not saved by our good deeds. but By Gods mercy

if your saved because of your good deeds, then you are not saved by Gods mercy, you have earned your salvation

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well there you have it folks. @BNR32FAN does not believe the gospel is faith in christ. Not in self. I mean, can i say much more?

Isn't your post a little heavy handed with the editing and your reply a smidgeon dishonest because of what it removed? What your interlocutor really said is:

It’s bad because it’s not the gospel. The gospel teaches that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. The gospel is not whatever we want it to be. The Bible teaches us the word of God and the whole purpose of reading it is to learn what God is trying to teach us and there is only ONE TRUTH AND IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO PERSONAL OR POPULAR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. We’re not free to interpret it however we please, we’re supposed to be interpreting it the way it was intended to be interpreted and we don’t arrive at a sound interpretation by ignoring passages that contradict our theology or twisting them to coincide with our theology.​

​

The gospel is about grace, not so much about faith while omitting any mention of grace.

The scriptures say:

Romans 8:1-11 LSB Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (4) so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (5) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, (7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, (8) and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. (9) However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (10) But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It’s bad because it’s not the gospel. The gospel teaches that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. The gospel is not whatever we want it to be. The Bible teaches us the word of God and the whole purpose of reading it is to learn what God is trying to teach us and there is only ONE TRUTH AND IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO PERSONAL OR POPULAR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. We’re not free to interpret it however we please, we’re supposed to be interpreting it the way it was intended to be interpreted, and we don’t arrive at a sound interpretation by ignoring passages that contradict our theology or twisting them to coincide with our theology.

Agreed, faith alone is not the gospel, nor a viable part of it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually yes they did, and the early church did teach it

Can you provide some quotes from the early church? No you can’t. You’re going to refer to the scriptures not the writings of the disciples of the apostles. What you’re going to do is misinterpret some passages of scripture and your interpretation of those passages is going to contradict the passages I’ve been quoting. See, my interpretation doesn’t contradict any passages of scripture. It’s clear that the disciples of the apostles and their disciples taught that true believers can fall away from the faith. So what eternal security advocates are proposing is that as soon as the apostles died the entire church began preaching a false gospel as though there was this huge conspiracy where tens of thousands of Christians who were scattered across thousands of miles and who endured persecution and even martyrdom devoting their very lives to spreading the gospel all the sudden agreed to preaching a false gospel without any sort of resistance whatsoever. All of these people who were spread out thousands of miles apart who were so dedicated to preserving the gospel that they were willing to die for it all the sudden conspired together to begin preaching a different gospel without any opposition? Doesn’t that sound strange to you my friend?

 

[Danthemailman]

Ok so being severed from Christ and fallen from grace doesn’t mean that they lost their salvation because you require it to be said in a specific terminology? The term “no one can lose their salvation” isn’t written anywhere in the Bible either, and yet you have no problem believing it. You know full well that the word “confident” is an encouraging assurance, not an actual guarantee of anything. So you’re willing to dismiss what Paul specifically said about their current connection to Christ and their reception of grace based on Paul’s assumption, not a guarantee, that they will repent and be saved?

Once again, Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible. "You who are seeking to be justified by the law." Generally speaking. No specific indictments. Not their final answer according to Paul. He has confidence in them, in the Lord that they will have no other view, which goes beyond mere assumption. Nothing dismissed.

Elsewhere in Scripture, Paul gives believers that guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever?

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Danthemailman]

Well there you have it folks. @BNR32FAN does not believe the gospel is faith in christ. Not in self. I mean, can i say much more?

That sounds more like the gospel of "self preservation" (in contrast with God's preservation - Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) which can so easily culminate into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. That gospel takes the focus off of Christ and places it in SELF. So, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved" is not the gospel.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. ✝️

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That sounds more like the gospel of "self preservation" (in contrast with God's preservation - Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) which can so easily culminate into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. That gospel takes the focus off of Christ and places it in SELF. So, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved" is not the gospel.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. ✝️

I can not fathom how people can not see this. I am honest.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Isn't your post a little heavy handed with the editing and your reply a smidgeon dishonest because of what it removed? What your interlocutor really said is:

It’s bad because it’s not the gospel. The gospel teaches that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. The gospel is not whatever we want it to be. The Bible teaches us the word of God and the whole purpose of reading it is to learn what God is trying to teach us and there is only ONE TRUTH AND IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO PERSONAL OR POPULAR OPINION OR INTERPRETATION. We’re not free to interpret it however we please, we’re supposed to be interpreting it the way it was intended to be interpreted and we don’t arrive at a sound interpretation by ignoring passages that contradict our theology or twisting them to coincide with our theology.​

You could say it. But it does not change the fact.

I also replied to the rest of what he said. so is it not heavy handed to make it appear as if I just ignore the rest of the post?

​

The gospel is about grace, not so much about faith while omitting any mention of grace.

Yes it is about grace.

Grace as paul said is not works. If it is of grace it is not of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace
Grace is freely given
Grace can not be earned. It is the gift of God.
Not of works lest anyone should boast.

The scriptures say:

Romans 8:1-11 LSB Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (4) so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (5) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, (7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, (8) and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. (9) However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (10) But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

what is the righteous requirement of the law?

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

It is why people can not be justified by following the law Which paul affirms by quoting moses

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”


For those who do sin (break the law) what is required?

Animal sacrifice. an unblemished animal will be sacrificed for the atonement of the people who have sinned.

Jesus is that unblemished lamb of God who shed his blood so we could be forgiven

so the righteous requirement of the law is perfect. which only one person has ever met

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

for the rest of us, We have grace. which was paid for by our redeemer

so in order for the rest of us to be seen as fulfilling the law. this is required

Romans 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Here we see the word Justified freely by GRACE through the redemption of Christ. Whom God set forth as a propitiation.

Righteousness is given to the one who has faith

1. All have sinned, meaning all are guilty, and need saved
2. Justification (a legal term which means found innocent, or found to be righteous) is according to Gods grace, this grace was paid for (redemption) by Christ, whom god set forth as a propitiation (A place of propitiation, a means of forgiveness, a means of expiation (Ex·pi·a·tion - the act of making amends or reparation for guilt or wrongdoing; atonement:
   "an act of public expiation"

The price of redemption was the price of atonement,, which which know per the law. That the atonment was paid by blood. Christ of course is the one who redeemed us through his blood as peter says in 1 peter 1 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. Again taking us back to the law. And the day of atonement, and the

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

what is the righteous requirement of the law?

That is self-evident is it not? What the law does is set the boundaries within which righteousness dwells and outside of which is wickedness. The righteous requirement of the law then is to live within the bounds set by the law.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed, faith alone is not the gospel, nor a viable part of it.

Your right too,

it is grace alone.. But God will not just give it to you, or force you to take it (Calvinism) he offers it to the whole world. so whoever received it in faith he will give it to them

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved (we are not saved by faith, we are saved by grace) through faith, (it is recieved by faith. But again, faith does not save you.)

and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, It is a gift. (it is not because we did something to earn it)

9. not of works, lest anyone should boast. (paul again clarifies, it is not of us, it is not of works. Lest anyone should boast, be puffed up in pride. think they had anything to do with their salvation)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can you provide some quotes from the early church?

I can't?

So Romans, Galations Ephesians, The gospel. and the other epistles are not from the early church?

No you can’t. You’re going to refer to the scriptures not the writings of the disciples of the apostles.

The disciples and apostles wrote the passages of scripture. are you kidding me?

What you’re going to do is misinterpret some passages of scripture and your interpretation of those passages is going to contradict the passages I’ve been quoting.

So go ahead and show my misinterpretation. feel free. I give them to you so you can respond to them.

the fact you have not shows any of them that I remember in error. what shoudl I think? (or anyone else reading this thread)

See, my interpretation doesn’t contradict any passages of scripture.

Yeah actually it does. as I have already shown you

It’s clear that the disciples of the apostles and their disciples taught that true believers can fall away from the faith.

Then the bible contradicts itself. And Jesus and the apostles are all liars.

So what eternal security advocates are proposing is that as soon as the apostles died the entire church began preaching a false gospel as though there was this huge conspiracy where tens of thousands of Christians who were scattered across thousands of miles and who endured persecution and even martyrdom devoting their very lives to spreading the gospel all the sudden agreed to preaching a false gospel without any sort of resistance whatsoever. All of these people who were spread out thousands of miles apart who were so dedicated to preserving the gospel that they were willing to die for it all the sudden conspired together to begin preaching a different gospel without any opposition? Doesn’t that sound strange to you my friend?

Not to be sarcastic or nothing, but have you ever read the NT> False teachers were already infiltrating all the churches. and I am sure growing their own churches.. lol Thats why we stick to the word. it is the inspired word of God. everything else is words of men.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again, Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible. "You who are seeking to be justified by the law." Generally speaking. No specific indictments. Not their final answer according to Paul. He has confidence in them, in the Lord that they will have no other view, which goes beyond mere assumption. Nothing dismissed.

Elsewhere in Scripture, Paul gives believers that guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever?

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Not everyone sho says they have faith really does.

By practice we will always go to what we really trust

a dog is a dog. you can teach a dog new tricks, But a dog will always to back to heating his vomit.

A true believer has been changed, they are a new creature. Changed by God. they are no longer the former creature.

A new creature created by God. who could never make his or her self that new creature. can not turn his or her self back into a dog. Its impossible

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is self-evident is it not?

Yes it is. As I showed. Perfection. Sinlessness. If you have sinned, You have failed to keep the righteous requirment, and can never keep it (it is too late) every sin you do after words just takes you deeper and deeper away from the "glory of God"

the wage of sin is death.

one sin equals 1 death sentance against you

How many times have you sinned? that is how many death sentences you have against you.

And your going to make it appear as if even with all these death sentences, or curses of the law. you can still keep it?

The pharisees thought this also. They crucified Christ because Christ told them they could not.

What the law does is set the boundaries within which righteousness dwells and outside of which is wickedness. The righteous requirement of the law then is to live within the bounds set by the law.

You right,

The line is sinless perfection. Break even the lest of these commands by stumbling. and you fall below this standard.

Paul said the law was a tutur to lead us to Christ. why? Because it exposes our sin.. then when we acknolwdge we are guilty and could not keep the law. it points us to the solution (the shedding of blood. the lamb. or to Christ.

Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, ( the first thing we must do, like the tax collector. is admit, we have sinned and fall short of the gflory.. We can not even keep ten commands. why do we think we could keep the whole law)

that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The law bring us to the point we repent and admit we are sinners. And then to lead us to the one thing that can save us, Our faith