CAN YOU HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

[sparow]

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said or I didn't explain it well. What I said was when we depend on our righteousness (right and wrong doing), which is fifthly rags over Christ's righteousness, which is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 Psa 119:172.

I am glad; I didn't really think your righteousness was dirty rags, but I thought I spotted a doctrine in your words.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I am glad; I didn't really think your righteousness was dirty rags, but I thought I spotted a doctrine in your words.

Yes! We need to depend on Christ and His righteousness.

 

[sparow]

Yes! We need to depend on Christ and His righteousness.

Do you have Biblical references for that, which sounds like, Jesus kept the Law so we do not have to.

Filthy rags is a metaphor; when is righteousness dirty rags, when a favorable relationship with God is absent, righteousness with out God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do you have Biblical references for that, which sounds like, Jesus kept the Law so we do not have to.

Filthy rags is a metaphor; when is righteousness dirty rags, when a favorable relationship with God is absent, righteousness with out God.

Phil 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God. I never said Jesus kept the law so we don't have to, not sure where you got that from, perhaps you are not familiar with what I post. Our faith upholds the law Rom 3:31 Jesus kept the law to show us the way always leading by example 1 John 2:6 but no one can keep the law through our own efforts, only though Christ John 14:15-18, He is the only one who has kept the law without stumbling once.. Why we need to seek Christ and His righteousness. All His commanemnts are righteous Psa 119:172 and through Him we can have His righteousness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you have Biblical references for that, which sounds like, Jesus kept the Law so we do not have to.

Jesus is the only one who ever kept the law.

We have not. so we are already guilty. and we still do not.

Thats why Jesus became the lamb of God.

Filthy rags is a metaphor; when is righteousness dirty rags, when a favorable relationship with God is absent, righteousness with out God.

Filthy rags is a metaphore. when you go to jesus and try to hand him your human good as payment for sin. its like handing him filthy (actually the term is bloody) rags.

 

[sparow]

Phil 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God. I never said Jesus kept the law so we don't have to, not sure where you got that from, perhaps you are not familiar with what I post. Our faith upholds the law Rom 3:31 Jesus kept the law to show us the way always leading by example 1 John 2:6 but no one can keep the law through our own efforts, only though Christ John 14:15-18, He is the only one who has kept the law without stumbling once.. Why we need to seek Christ and His righteousness. All His commanemnts are righteous Psa 119:172 and through Him we can have His righteousness

I find your Phil 3.9 which I assume is from Paul's epistle to Philemon, very strange; from the JKV Phil 3.9, Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee
, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Of Jesus Christ.

I have to admit that I was not able to a lot of sense out of that epistle, first I noted the words, righteousness and Law, were not mentioned in the epistle, and Christ is used only in reference to being Christs prisoner. In verse 9 and 10 Paul asks earnestly, ( I beseech thee), But it is hard to find the question. In verse 20 Paul asks of Philemon, "refresh my heart in Christ?"

<< We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God>> Nonsense, the Law comes from God; even an atheist can keep the commandments, and according to Solomon it is profitable to do so. The atheist has not entered into the covenant, so his righteousness is filthy rags, relatively speaking; God's greatest complaint against Israel was that they would not enter in (into the covenant).

There is a common Christian teaching that says, because Jesus kept the Law we do not have to, and people say that in the same way you say, We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God. There is another Christian teaching you may not have heard, "Because the Law is abrogated sin no longer exists.

I do not agree with your interpretation of scripture at all, I do not know whether Jesus (the human, son of man) stumbled or not, if he did he would have repented.

 

[sparow]

Jesus is the only one who ever kept the law.

We have not. so we are already guilty. and we still do not.

Thats why Jesus became the lamb of God.

Filthy rags is a metaphore. when you go to jesus and try to hand him your human good as payment for sin. its like handing him filthy (actually the term is bloody) rags.

I do not believe that Jesus was the only one to keep the Law, John the Baptist kept the Law, Moses kept the Law, when ever a remnant came out of Israel and renewed the covenant, which happened often. they kept the Law for a time.

We are born guilty and opposed to God, we are require to overcome.

Jesus did not become the lamb of God. He was the lamb of God since the foundation, since Adam.

 

[ralliann]

How can you have a GRACE without God's LAW (10 commandments) when it is God's LAW that leads to GRACE? What are the OLD and NEW COVENANTS? If you do not KNOW what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is that the OLD COVENANT points to?

By God's law of faith.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I find your Phil 3.9 which I assume is from Paul's epistle to Philemon, very strange; from the JKV Phil 3.9, Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee
, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Of Jesus Christ.

I have to admit that I was not able to a lot of sense out of that epistle, first I noted the words, righteousness and Law, were not mentioned in the epistle, and Christ is used only in reference to being Christs prisoner. In verse 9 and 10 Paul asks earnestly, ( I beseech thee), But it is hard to find the question. In verse 20 Paul asks of Philemon, "refresh my heart in Christ?"

<< We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God>> Nonsense, the Law comes from God; even an atheist can keep the commandments, and according to Solomon it is profitable to do so. The atheist has not entered into the covenant, so his righteousness is filthy rags, relatively speaking; God's greatest complaint against Israel was that they would not enter in (into the covenant).

There is a common Christian teaching that says, because Jesus kept the Law we do not have to, and people say that in the same way you say, We have no righteousness, all righteousness comes from God. There is another Christian teaching you may not have heard, "Because the Law is abrogated sin no longer exists.

I do not agree with your interpretation of scripture at all, I do not know whether Jesus (the human, son of man) stumbled or not, if he did he would have repented.

So this is my understanding. All righteousness comes from God, including God's law which all His commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 holy and good Rom 7:12

We have all broken God's law, so our righteousness does not come from law keeping because if all we had to do was keep the law, we could save ourselves, but we can't, we need the blood of Christ. So the only way to receive righteousness is through faith in Christ. If we have a right relationship with Christ He imputes His righteousness to us. Romans 4:22 So how do we have a right relationship with Christ? Living hostile to God's law Rom 8:7-8 and sinning. God forbid! Rom 6:1 Of course not and sad so many teach this, it is a doctrine from another spirit. We look to Christ always- He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, we need to die with Christ Rom 6:1-11 have a conversion being reborn in Him walking a new path, the same path Jesus lived to be our example obeying all of His commandments abiding in Him John 15:10 following His example 1 John 2:6, but He is the one enabling us to keep His commandments through our cooperation and love for Him John 14:15-18 and obeying Him leads to righteousness Rom 6:16 and reconciliation Rev 22:14

If we seek our own righteousness (our version of right and wrong) or try to obey God's law without Christ we will fall every time. Why we are to seek Christ and His righteousness- and everything will be added unto us.

Its why we need the faith in Jesus and faith of Jesus Rev 14:12 most only seek the faith in Jesus and neglect the faith of Jesus- what faith did Jesus have, how did He live. Thats what we should be seeking daily.

 

[Leaf473]

I think most Christians agree with the idea that we can't keep God's law. But we believe in Jesus, and then God counts us as righteous

And then since we are righteous, we want to keep God's law, as in his instructions

Where Christians differ, and where I think the interesting discussion is,
is which laws from the law of Moses are part of God's law today.

One common rubric is to say that we are to keep the commandments, but not statutes or ordinances. The issue I see with that is that the entire Book of Leviticus is called "commandments"

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 27:34 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel on Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

And I just found this out recently, the entire book of Numbers is also called "commandments"

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 36:13 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments and the ordinances which the LORD commanded to the sons of Israel through Moses in the plains of Moab, by the Jordan opposite Jericho.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There are lots of laws, ordinances, statues and commandments in scripture Neh 9:13

There is only one law that was written by the finger of God, the God of the Universe Exo 31:18 numbered by design by God Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 as God knew people would turn them into an unbiblical number forgetting what God said to Remember. God added no more to them Deut 5:22 only the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20 He claimed this unit as His own, "My commandments" Exo 20:6 yet man thinks they have the right to edit or do away with them in essence making themselves their own god. Jesus taught them Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:17-30 and kept them and if we abide in Him we will too John 15:10 following in His example 1 John 2:6

All other laws, commandments, statues ordinances were handwritten by man, in a book placed outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-31 containing all the blessings and the curses for breaking God's Ten Commandments, His holy, righteous and eternal law, perfect for converting the soul.

 

[Leaf473]

There are lots of laws, ordinances, statues and commandments in scripture Neh 9:13

There is only one law that was written by the finger of God, the God of the Universe Exo 31:18 numbered by design by God Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 as God knew people would turn them into an unbiblical number forgetting what God said to Remember. God added no more to them Deut 5:22 only the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20 He claimed this unit as His own, "My commandments" Exo 20:6 yet man thinks they have the right to edit or do away with them in essence making themselves their own god. Jesus taught them Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:17-30 and kept them and if we abide in Him we will too John 15:10 following in His example 1 John 2:6

Sounds good so far

All other laws, commandments, statues ordinances were handwritten by man, in a book placed outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-31 containing all the blessings and the curses for breaking God's Ten Commandments, His holy, righteous and eternal law, perfect for converting the soul.

And do you see any of those laws, commandments, statutes, ordinances as part of God's instructions to us today? (I believe that you do, but I'm just laying it out step by step so we don't end up going in circles )

If we don't use the rubric of keeping all the commandments, then what shall we use?

To put it in concrete terms, what is the first law that you come to in the book of Leviticus that is part of God's instructions to us today, as you read it?

 

[Leaf473]

There are lots of laws, ordinances, statues and commandments in scripture Neh 9:13

There is only one law that was written by the finger of God, the God of the Universe Exo 31:18 numbered by design by God Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 as God knew people would turn them into an unbiblical number forgetting what God said to Remember. God added no more to them Deut 5:22 only the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20 He claimed this unit as His own, "My commandments" Exo 20:6 yet man thinks they have the right to edit or do away with them in essence making themselves their own god. Jesus taught them Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:17-30 and kept them and if we abide in Him we will too John 15:10 following in His example 1 John 2:6

All other laws, commandments, statues ordinances were handwritten by man, in a book placed outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-31 containing all the blessings and the curses for breaking God's Ten Commandments, His holy, righteous and eternal law, perfect for converting the soul.

Sounds good so far


And do you see any of those laws, commandments, statutes, ordinances as part of God's instructions to us today? (I believe that you do, but I'm just laying it out step by step so we don't end up going in circles )

If we don't use the rubric of keeping all the commandments, then what shall we use?

To put it in concrete terms, what is the first law that you come to in the book of Leviticus that is part of God's instructions to us today, as you read it?

The difficulty of separating the "today laws" from the "yesterday laws" in the law of Moses is a fascinating issue in partial-law theology, it looks to me

 

[sparow]

So this is my understanding. All righteousness comes from God, including God's law which all His commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 holy and good Rom 7:12

We have all broken God's law, so our righteousness does not come from law keeping because if all we had to do was keep the law, we could save ourselves, but we can't, we need the blood of Christ. So the only way to receive righteousness is through faith in Christ. If we have a right relationship with Christ He imputes His righteousness to us. Romans 4:22 So how do we have a right relationship with Christ? Living hostile to God's law Rom 8:7-8 and sinning. God forbid! Rom 6:1 Of course not and sad so many teach this, it is a doctrine from another spirit. We look to Christ always- He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, we need to die with Christ Rom 6:1-11 have a conversion being reborn in Him walking a new path, the same path Jesus lived to be our example obeying all of His commandments abiding in Him John 15:10 following His example 1 John 2:6, but He is the one enabling us to keep His commandments through our cooperation and love for Him John 14:15-18 and obeying Him leads to righteousness Rom 6:16 and reconciliation Rev 22:14

If we seek our own righteousness (our version of right and wrong) or try to obey God's law without Christ we will fall every time. Why we are to seek Christ and His righteousness- and everything will be added unto us.

Its why we need the faith in Jesus and faith of Jesus Rev 14:12 most only seek the faith in Jesus and neglect the faith of Jesus- what faith did Jesus have, how did He live. Thats what we should be seeking daily.

You seem to speak a different version of the English language than I. We are required to give God credit for all things, but not to the point where we shirk our responsibilities. God requires something from us, and that something is counted as righteousness.

I agree, Christ is the enabler, and primarily by shedding His blood for the remission of sin, and renewing the covenant.

Your comment on "own righteousness" is true, but it is a distraction; if we keep the Sabbath as a sign that we have entered into the covenant, and should that be true, the the issue of being our own god would never arise.

What we need to seek is the narrow path that leads to life, the way that needs to be straight. Faith is a grammatical variation of trust, trust of Jesus is something Jesus does, wouldn't it be great if Jesus could trust us. Trust in Jesus is to trust that God will confirm the covenant, and Jesus has already complete half of confirming the covenant.

 

[sparow]

I think most Christians agree with the idea that we can't keep God's law. But we believe in Jesus, and then God counts us as righteous

And then since we are righteous, we want to keep God's law, as in his instructions

Where Christians differ, and where I think the interesting discussion is,
is which laws from the law of Moses are part of God's law today.

One common rubric is to say that we are to keep the commandments, but not statutes or ordinances. The issue I see with that is that the entire Book of Leviticus is called "commandments"

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 27:34 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel on Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

And I just found this out recently, the entire book of Numbers is also called "commandments"

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 36:13 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments and the ordinances which the LORD commanded to the sons of Israel through Moses in the plains of Moab, by the Jordan opposite Jericho.

www.biblegateway.com

I agree most Christians agree with the idea, but that they would base their theology and salvation on an ideology is prophesy fulfilled.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You seem to speak a different version of the English language than I. We are required to give God credit for all things, but not to the point where we shirk our responsibilities. God requires something from us, and that something is counted as righteousness.

I agree, Christ is the enabler, and primarily by shedding His blood for the remission of sin, and renewing the covenant.

Your comment on "own righteousness" is true, but it is a distraction; if we keep the Sabbath as a sign that we have entered into the covenant, and should that be true, the the issue of being our own god would never arise.

What we need to seek is the narrow path that leads to life, the way that needs to be straight. Faith is a grammatical variation of trust, trust of Jesus is something Jesus does, wouldn't it be great if Jesus could trust us. Trust in Jesus is to trust that God will confirm the covenant, and Jesus has already complete half of confirming the covenant.

Of course we should not shrink our responsibilities- our responsibility is to cooperate with God by our love and faith in Him. In doing so one would make the decision every Sabbath to keep it holy per the commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 doing the ways of God isa 58:13 in the same manner as Jesus - going to church, praying, reading the scriptures, helping others in need. We all have decisions to make to obey or not to obey to follow or not to follow, but that won't make us righteous, it leads to righteousness but its through Christ that makes us righteous. Keeping our eyes on Christ following in His footsteps having faith in what He taught and how He lived. He is the one enabling us to obey Him, we can do nothing on our own John 14:15-18 but all things through Him Phil 4:13

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

I agree most Christians agree with the idea, but that they would base their theology and salvation on an ideology is prophesy fulfilled.

Most Christians agree that's what the Bible says

How about if I put it that way?

 

[Palmfever]

Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

This is an interesting scripture. If applying it to the Ten Commandments- it just says "law" and in context its pointing to the book of the law, not the Ten Commandments, but lets apply it to the Ten. First most never even try to keep the Ten Commandments or at least all of them so skipping some of them sort of defeats the purpose to bring us to Christ and once in Christ what did He teach? To keep the commandments John 14:15 not to break the least of them Mat 5:19 our faith establishes the law Rom 3:31 not diminishes it. If the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ shouldn't we retain what we learned so we don't fall away?

 

[Palmfever]

M

This is an interesting scripture. If applying it to the Ten Commandments- it just says "law" and in context its pointing to the book of the law, not the Ten Commandments, but lets apply it to the Ten. First most never even try to keep the Ten Commandments or at least all of them so skipping some of them sort of defeats the purpose to bring us to Christ and once in Christ what did He teach? To keep the commandments John 14:15 not to break the least of them Mat 5:19 our faith establishes the law Rom 3:31 not diminishes it. If the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ shouldn't we retain what we learned so we don't fall away?

It is absolutely the ten.
Moses laws didn't rise to the level of God's laws.
It does not defeat the purpose of the law if we as humans break one. No one is saved by keeping the law, the law accuses us.
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
And God through Paul laid that confusion to rest with this:

:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

That scripture is about the day or days that people choose to set aside, it offers the freedom we have in Christ, not some rule that men should be a slave to.

Every day should be in the presence of God.