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A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

Michie

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But it is. Deny it all you want but you use assent the same excuses and reasoning even the same works base way to heaven although with different sacraments as you call them it laws as they call them
You are another one ignorant of the Church’s teachings. You’ve given no proof. I have. Not true.

Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:4

Be careful.
 
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Michie

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The Weak and the Strong​

Romans 14


14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You are another one ignorant of the Church’s teachings. You’ve given no proof. I have. Not true.
You have not given any proof.

And we have.

the jews used extra biblical writings as your church does
The jews focused on history and claimed they could trace back to Abraham and the fathers. Your church does the same, only you trace back to Peter
The jews focused on how good they were (many felt they were so good. they did not need christ) and the traditions and what you call today sacraments to get to heaven. As you do.

I can go on and on (the priesthood. the high priest. vs the priesthood and the pope..




Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:4

Be careful.
I am judging your church, not you..

You are bearing false witness against me, stating I have not proven my case. when I have.

You do not need to agree. it makes no difference.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Swearing a vow, is a work of man, a work of evil. Church-authority defined by such works, does not deserve its definition.
Agree,

Yet the roman church swears by its own authority.. denying the authority of scripture
 
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Michie

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You have not given any proof.

And we have.

the jews used extra biblical writings as your church does
The jews focused on history and claimed they could trace back to Abraham and the fathers. Your church does the same, only you trace back to Peter
The jews focused on how good they were (many felt they were so good. they did not need christ) and the traditions and what you call today sacraments to get to heaven. As you do.

I can go on and on (the priesthood. the high priest. vs the priesthood and the pope..





I am judging your church, not you..

You are bearing false witness against me, stating I have not proven my case. when I have.

You do not need to agree. it makes no difference.
You provided exactly zero proof. You’ve read nothing provided to you. You are repeating the same anti-Catholic trope. I’ve read through this thread. Even implying Catholics have a fake faith. You are judging. Not your job.
 
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Michie

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Agree,

Yet the roman church swears by its own authority.. denying the authority of scripture
Completely false to the point of outright slander.

Proof??

The Roman Catholic church insists that the Scripture is always superior to the Magisterium. Dei Verbum



 
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Michie

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eternal life
Never die
Passed from death to life
Pass from judgement to life.

This is what Jesus promised.

Now you either trust him, or you do not.



lol. I know who they are.. Those who are washed in the blood.

Yes. Strive to make sure your faith is real. and not fake..

Thats funny, John said he wrote us a whole book saying he wrote it so we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life.

I will trust John.. ok??

I have been saved.

You should not presume I am not saved.

If you keep the whole law. yet stumble in one point, your guilty of all.

You should read James 2: 10

I would never tell a person this.

No. Faith is trusting God.

When you trust God. you tend to also do what he says

They believe. they do nto have faith

Thats works.

Total contradiction.

You can not say you are saved by works. then claim you must be saved by works.. (which is prety much what you just did)

No. Just because you believe Jesus lived does nto save you.

You must repent and trust God.. Abraham had assurance God would do what he said. If you do not have assurance, You have no faith.

Never said that

Never said it did. You are becoming a broken record.

No, Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord. Paul was assured of his salvation. he strove to be a workman and was afraid he would do something that would take away his ability to teach

Nor do I

Unworthy to be a teacher.

Paul knew he was unworthy, he called himself the chief of sinners.

Meaning he considered himself unworthy. do you consider yourself unworthy of Gods grace? I do..

hey, don't let me stop you from pumping your chest. But I will pray you will become like the tax collector.

I am not afraid. I have not been given a spirit of fear. I have been given a sound mind. I can go to my abba father with joy, because I know I am his, I have entered his rest.

However. i do respect (fear) him.. and not in myself or what I do. That my friend is wisdom
.
 
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Michie

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And finally, I leave you with this:

*Permission to post in full*​

Question:​

Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that one can earn salvation simply through his own good works?

Answer:​

The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that man can earn his salvation. Apart from God, man cannot be saved. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and thus teaches that salvation is a free gift from God, and yet God empowers us to freely accept or reject that gift through the choices (works) we make in our lives here on earth.

In addition, any merit man gains through his good works cannot be attained apart from Jesus Christ. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, “God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

Notice that Paul’s words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.

James 2:17 reminds us that “faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead.” In verse 24 James says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” And later: “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” (2:26).

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Session 6: can. 9).

By the way, “let him be anathema” means “let him be excommunicated,” not “let him be cursed to hell.” The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word “anathema” is found in Scripture. Don’t let “Bible Christians” throw you for a loop on this one.

So, far from teaching a doctrine of “works righteousness” (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.For more on the relationship of works and salvation, see our tract “Reward and Merit,” our article “Are Good Works Necessary for Salvation?” and our Q&A “Justified by Faith or Works or Both?

 
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Eternally Grateful

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talk to any roman catholic. and start questioning their doctrines. And they will every one of them point to the authority of the church in doctrone.

Do you even understand what your own church does?
 
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Michie

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Can you please redo this post. did you answer it or did you just quote it with no answer?
Can you click your quote? I bolded it. You said: (Yes. Strive to make sure your faith is real. and not fake..)
 
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Michie

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talk to any roman catholic. and start questioning their doctrines. And they will every one of them point to the authority of the church in doctrone.

Do you even understand what your own church does?
Read the proof provided to you straight from the horses mouth. Where is your proof? I’m not talking about word of mouth but what the Church actually teaches and practices.

Talking to any Roman Catholic does not constitute proof. People usually go to the source of their objections to find if they are valid or not.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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And finally, I leave you with this:

*Permission to post in full*​

Question:​

Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that one can earn salvation simply through his own good works?

Answer:​

The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that man can earn his salvation. Apart from God, man cannot be saved. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and thus teaches that salvation is a free gift from God, and yet God empowers us to freely accept or reject that gift through the choices (works) we make in our lives here on earth.

In addition, any merit man gains through his good works cannot be attained apart from Jesus Christ. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, “God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

Notice that Paul’s words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.

James 2:17 reminds us that “faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead.” In verse 24 James says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” And later: “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” (2:26).

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Session 6: can. 9).

By the way, “let him be anathema” means “let him be excommunicated,” not “let him be cursed to hell.” The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word “anathema” is found in Scripture. Don’t let “Bible Christians” throw you for a loop on this one.

So, far from teaching a doctrine of “works righteousness” (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.For more on the relationship of works and salvation, see our tract “Reward and Merit,” our article “Are Good Works Necessary for Salvation?” and our Q&A “Justified by Faith or Works or Both?

lol.

Again, have you spoken with a catholic?

the eucharist according to every catholic I ever met. takes care of venial sins
Then you have confession and works or penance (the rosary)
then you have baptism (which is not even baptism) which takes care of
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Read the proof provided to you straight from the horses mouth. Where is your proof? I’m not talking about world of mouth but what the Church actually teaches and practices.
lol..

The pharisees I am sure felt the same way
Talking to any Roman Catholic does not constitute proof. People usually go to the source of their objections to find if they are valid or not.
So every catholic I have ever spoken to in my 50 years of talking to people has been wrong.

ok my friend..
 
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Michie

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lol..

The pharisees I am sure felt the same way

So every catholic I have ever spoken to in my 50 years of talking to people has been wrong.

ok my friend..
Alright. It’s obvious you have nothing. Thanks for your time I guess. Go to the Church, find the proof of your accusations. It’s easily found. You have done nothing but spread falsehoods. Those Catholics you talked to probably knew little to nothing of what the Church teaches. It’s common in all Churches with the disgruntled.

Good luck. You’re going to need it. :wave:
 
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Michie

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lol.

Again, have you spoken with a catholic?

the eucharist according to every catholic I ever met. takes care of venial sins
Then you have confession and works or penance (the rosary)
then you have baptism (which is not even baptism) which takes care of
Good grief. Ignorance is bliss isn’t it? Lol

See ya. :wave:
 
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The Liturgist

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talk to any roman catholic. and start questioning their doctrines. And they will every one of them point to the authority of the church in doctrone.

Do you even understand what your own church does?

Have you noticed the Roman Catholics in this thread telling you you are mistaken?

Also how do you figure the Roman church is swearing? That’s literally absurd.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Can you click your quote? I bolded it. You said: (Yes. Strive to make sure your faith is real. and not fake..)
this is what I get when I clock on your quote. did you answer all of my points again, can you properly answer my question in quote form. I understand sometimes the format does nt work.. Just please correct it
 
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The Liturgist

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So every catholic I have ever spoken to in my 50 years of talking to people has been wrong.

Evidently, if they told you something that contradicts official Roman Catholic doctrinal statements.

For this reason you ought to ask clergy or catechists as well as laity, since with laics there is a risk they might be poorly catechized, or they might not know the ideal way of expressing things, or they might be “Cafeteria Catholics” who disagree with the church on issues like human sexuality and abortion.

That said I do find it peculiar that you’ve interacted with so many Catholics who were apparently ignorant of the central tenants of their faith. It would be interesting to know what dioceses they were in and who they were, and what time periods we are talking about.
 
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